WCML Derailment in Cumbria - 29th May 2024

[paul1609]

I think this goes right back to introduction of the VHF service that came in in Virgin days and several services such as the ones you are suggesting were removed. And in those days the units trundling up to Windermere would only get 75 top speed. Not these modern 195s. So making windermere/cumbrian coast passengers interchange usually works. But not on this occasion.

It's frustrating that right after covid the Avanti 'do not board our service without a seat reservation' quietly forgot this interchange. Another example of the disjointed railway system .

If you believe the ORR figures for useage, the Windermere Branch is surprisingly low. I tend to compare stations to my home station Rye on Marshlink and it suggests that passenger figures are about a third of Marshlink which is run as a basic hourly dmu service. Of the 300k that use Windermere every year approximately a 1/8th are captive to the branch only travelling to Kendal. Likewise why are London to Glasgow trains stopping at Oxenholme and Penrith making the London to Glasgow services uncompetitive time wise now there is a regional express service from TPE?
I can quite understand why Avanti dont see these stations as a priority during disruption.

 

[Carlisle]

Which other TOCs have, more than once, been banned from operating on the network by the ORR due to unsafe practices?

Thames Trains, Great Western & Railtrack might well have been if they weren’t essentially deemed too important to fail, though Railtrack ultimately did.

 

[43066]

Thames Trains, Great Western & Railtrack might well have been if they weren’t essentially deemed too important to fail, though Railtrack ultimately did.

So no others, then.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The derailed freight looked like steel wagons. What were they carrying if they were from the Hardensale quarry to South Wales?

The steel wagons on the rear had been attached to the rear just to get some empties back down to South Wales.

 

[66701GBRF]

This is the second recent incident where a set of trap points haven't kept the derailed vehicles from encroaching onto the running line clearance envelope. The other being West Ealing.

Is there a need to review the layout/design of trap points, so that any over-runs do not foul adjoining lines?

The West Ealing incident did not foul any other lines.

 

[Class 170101]

If you believe the ORR figures for useage, the Windermere Branch is surprisingly low. I tend to compare stations to my home station Rye on Marshlink and it suggests that passenger figures are about a third of Marshlink which is run as a basic hourly dmu service. Of the 300k that use Windermere every year approximately a 1/8th are captive to the branch only travelling to Kendal. Likewise why are London to Glasgow trains stopping at Oxenholme and Penrith making the London to Glasgow services uncompetitive time wise now there is a regional express service from TPE?
I can quite understand why Avanti dont see these stations as a priority during disruption.

To me it would be an incident like this where perhaps The Windermere service needs to run to Preston, or even Manchester so it isn't reliant on the main WCML operator for its connections. Perhaps run as a 6 car with the Barrow service between Manchester and Preston and split there.

 

[168lover]

To me it would be an incident like this where perhaps The Windermere service needs to run to Preston, or even Manchester so it isn't reliant on the main WCML operator for its connections. Perhaps run as a 6 car with the Barrow service between Manchester and Preston and split there.

I second that idea, the amount of times I've attempted to connect at Oxenholme only to see the Windermere shuttle disappear as my Avanti arrives. Also don't get me started on the ridiculous 58 minute connections off the West Midlands Avanti onto the Windermere shuttle

 

[a_c_skinner]

My beef is that Avanti has often stopped north of Preston when the problem is north of Carlisle. I assume this is route knowledge and would be much cheaper to address than drags over the S&C would be.

 

[Dr Hoo]

My beef is that Avanti has often stopped north of Preston when the problem is north of Carlisle. I assume this is route knowledge and would be much cheaper to address than drags over the S&C would be.

Very crudely I'll assume that half of Scotland-Euston services have resources either side of Preston during the body of the day. With no trains coming through from Glasgow and Edinburgh the half that is at or south of Preston has to pick up return slots to Euston in oder to avoid slashing the service there. It would be too far/long to sensibly train and roster Euston crews to work beyond Preston to Carlisle even if the route was available. So only Preston can really contribute. The problem then is that there are virtually no available trains for them to drive north of Preston, e.g. to Lancaster or Oxenholme.

This is all very rough and ready but am I fundamentally missing anything? Obviously you also soon 'run out of trains' if you're taking hours extra to drag some round via Hellifield too.

 

[Class 170101]

My beef is that Avanti has often stopped north of Preston when the problem is north of Carlisle. I assume this is route knowledge and would be much cheaper to address than drags over the S&C would be.

Dragging via the S&C doesn't help with problems north of Carlisle, you mean the GSW.

I expect they run out of crew to go north of Preston regardless of where the line is blocked north of Preston.

 

[Carlisle]

I expect they run out of crew to go north of Preston regardless of where the line is blocked north of Preston.

Also doesn’t help that their diesel or soon to be bi mode’s stock aren’t in reality capable of operating north of Preston

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Any northbound train that is crewed by Preston staff should be able to run through to Carlisle and back with no adverse impact on the rest of the service.
The train would simply sit at Carlisle for 3 hours awaiting its return working.

 

[Bikeman78]

Any northbound train that is crewed by Preston staff should be able to run through to Carlisle and back with no adverse impact on the rest of the service.
The train would simply sit at Carlisle for 3 hours awaiting its return working.

They could come back earlier. The crew won't object to getting back early.

 

[takno]

They could come back earlier. The crew won't object to getting back early.

The customers wanting to catch the return service from Carlisle, Penrith or Oxenholme might though

 

[Falcon1200]

Avanti wanting to protect and maintain their service south of Preston, when there is a blockage somewhere north, is understandable, but simply abandoning the entire service north of Preston, even when the line is open to Oxenholme (as in this case) or Carlisle is very poor. Perhaps there should be contingency train plans for such occasions, dedicating one (for Oxenholme) and two (for Carlisle) sets and traincrews to provide a shuttle service, while leaving enough resources to still run an hourly Preston/Euston timetable; The West Midlands trains would have to be sacrificed with the Eustons stopping additionally at Crewe, and possibly Stafford also.

 

[Pinus contorta]

My beef is that Avanti has often stopped north of Preston when the problem is north of Carlisle. I assume this is route knowledge and would be much cheaper to address than drags over the S&C would be.

It's probably easier to stack rail replacement coaches up at preston ( and source them too) rather than at Lancaster. I used the service when the Grange derailment was ongoing and that was just to replace a 2 carriage unit and my conclusion is having Avanti services starting and terminating at Lancaster would be much more difficult to coordinate.

Don't know what the score is at Carlisle. It's a much larger station so I suppose you can provide a large numberr of displaced passengers with somewhere to wait. Can you source lots of road transport from Carlisle or does it all have to come from Glasgow?

 

[Bikeman78]

The customers wanting to catch the return service from Carlisle, Penrith or Oxenholme might though

I meant one of the earlier hourly paths, not some random time.

 

[renegademaster]

,not helped by the recent debacle over central door locking.

West Coast hasn't been banned over that. The exemption that was supposed to be temporary, that they managed to drag out ,eventually came to an end, now they are using newer stock

 

[43066]

West Coast hasn't been banned over that. The exemption that was supposed to be temporary, that they managed to drag out ,eventually came to an end, now they are using newer stock

I didn’t say they had. They have been banned for other reasons, though.

 

[Skiddaw]

If you believe the ORR figures for useage, the Windermere Branch is surprisingly low. I tend to compare stations to my home station Rye on Marshlink and it suggests that passenger figures are about a third of Marshlink which is run as a basic hourly dmu service. Of the 300k that use Windermere every year approximately a 1/8th are captive to the branch only travelling to Kendal. Likewise why are London to Glasgow trains stopping at Oxenholme and Penrith making the London to Glasgow services uncompetitive time wise now there is a regional express service from TPE?
I can quite understand why Avanti dont see these stations as a priority during disruption.

Speaking as a Penrithian I'd be very dogged off if the London-Glasgow didn't stop there. In my experience, at least, there's never been a time when a fair number of people don't get off/on at Penrith regardless of the time of year.

 

[paul1609]

Speaking as a Penrithian I'd be very dogged off if the London-Glasgow didn't stop there. In my experience, at least, there's never been a time when a fair number of people don't get off/on at Penrith regardless of the time of year.

And yet Penrith doesnt quite manage 1/2 a million entries and exits a year and of those a third are only travelling to Carlisle. it probably has an even worse case for intercity stops than Oxenholm.

 

[Skiddaw]

And yet Penrith doesnt quite manage 1/2 a million entries and exits a year and of those a third are only travelling to Carlisle. it probably has an even worse case for intercity stops than Oxenholm.

Even so, I don't see the argument that 'fast' trains shouldn't stop at either station. Oxenholme gets a fair bit of tourist traffic during the holiday season (including people from abroad who will likely have started from London) and whilst the population density in Cumbria is low, Penrith is a decent sized market town. I don't think any of us would be too chuffed if we had to travel to Carlisle or Lancaster to pick up a fast train to Euston or Glasgow.

On a personal note, both me and Mr Skiddaw do sometimes travel to Carlisle from Penrith rather than drive (it depends on what we're doing) as I am sure do many locals and again, I don't see that's a valid argument for fast trains not stopping at Penrith.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.....

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Even so, I don't see the argument that 'fast' trains shouldn't stop at either station. Oxenholme gets a fair bit of tourist traffic during the holiday season (including people from abroad who will likely have started from London) and whilst the population density in Cumbria is low, Penrith is a decent sized market town. I don't think any of us would be too chuffed if we had to travel to Carlisle or Lancaster to pick up a fast train to Euston or Glasgow.

On a personal note, both me and Mr Skiddaw do sometimes travel to Carlisle from Penrith rather than drive (it depends on what we're doing) as I am sure do many locals and again, I don't see that's a valid argument for fast trains not stopping at Penrith.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.....

As a West Cumbrian, I’d rather (selfishly) like Avanti to keep stopping at Penrith, and Oxenholme to be served by Northern from Preston or Lancaster please…

If I’m going somewhere and back in a day, it’s better to drive to Penrith than Carlisle to catch a train, then I’m only worrying about TPE or Avanti crying off, whereas if I go Workington->Carlisle, I’ve got the opportunity for Northern to put a spanner in the works before I’ve even begun my journey.

On one of my many, many waits at Penrith I met a chap travelling to Manchester who worked for Network Rail, and the topic of the Cumbrian coast line came up - the impression I got was that some within Network Rail would dearly love to have it as a diversion route if it didn’t take so long or cost so much to bring it up to spec, but in the real world it’s an idea that should die but won’t

 

[30907]

Avanti wanting to protect and maintain their service south of Preston, when there is a blockage somewhere north, is understandable, but simply abandoning the entire service north of Preston, even when the line is open to Oxenholme (as in this case) or Carlisle is very poor. Perhaps there should be contingency train plans for such occasions, dedicating one (for Oxenholme) and two (for Carlisle) sets and traincrews to provide a shuttle service, while leaving enough resources to still run an hourly Preston/Euston timetable; The West Midlands trains would have to be sacrificed with the Eustons stopping additionally at Crewe, and possibly Stafford also.

I agree it is very unsatisfactory. Unfortunately, the resources released by a line block over Shap are all at the Glasgow end. A quick check of the Preston timetable suggests you can't free up any of the stock based in the NW without thinning the timetable. Turning the WM services at Crewe frees up just one set because of awkward turnround times, so you would be limited to a 3-hourly Preston-Carlisle - better than nothing, certainly.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I agree it is very unsatisfactory. Unfortunately, the resources released by a line block over Shap are all at the Glasgow end. A quick check of the Preston timetable suggests you can't free up any of the stock based in the NW without thinning the timetable. Turning the WM services at Crewe frees up just one set because of awkward turnround times, so you would be limited to a 3-hourly Preston-Carlisle - better than nothing, certainly.

This isn't true - there is also resource based in Preston.

There is no reason why a Pendo booked all the way to Glasgow with a Preston crew can't go up to the line block - whether that be Lancaster, Oxenholme or Carlisle. As mentioned earlier in the thread:

Any northbound train that is crewed by Preston staff should be able to run through to Carlisle and back with no adverse impact on the rest of the service.
The train would simply sit at Carlisle for 3 hours awaiting its return working.

As a West Cumbrian, I’d rather (selfishly) like Avanti to keep stopping at Penrith, and Oxenholme to be served by Northern from Preston or Lancaster please…

The South Cumbrians would disagree strongly with this!

 

[paul1609]

I agree it is very unsatisfactory. Unfortunately, the resources released by a line block over Shap are all at the Glasgow end. A quick check of the Preston timetable suggests you can't free up any of the stock based in the NW without thinning the timetable. Turning the WM services at Crewe frees up just one set because of awkward turnround times, so you would be limited to a 3-hourly Preston-Carlisle - better than nothing, certainly.

It doesnt make any sense to run an 9 or 11 car intercity train beyond Preston for the average 25 passengers (ORR Figures) that alight/ join at Oxenholme or Penrith if you are short of resources that will see them full south of Preston, especially when TPE are running a 4 car EMU that is adequate capacity.
Oxenholme and Penrith only have an Intercity service to London because they are stops on the service to Carlisle and Glasgow/ Edinburgh once you remove that through traffic theres no justification in terms of passenger numbers for the service at all.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It doesnt make any sense to run an 9 or 11 car intercity train beyond Preston for the average 25 passengers (ORR Figures) that alight/ join at Oxenholme or Penrith if you are short of resources that will see them full south of Preston, especially when TPE are running a 4 car EMU that is adequate capacity.

I agree that if the TPE service was running that would have been a perfectly adequate service north of Preston given the circumstances. However, for a large part of the day it wasn't running and the first southbound departure from Oxenholme was the 10:16 Northern service to Manchester Airport with the next departure being the 13:29 Northern service with no alternative transport being provided.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It doesnt make any sense to run an 9 or 11 car intercity train beyond Preston for the average 25 passengers (ORR Figures) that alight/ join at Oxenholme or Penrith if you are short of resources that will see them full south of Preston, especially when TPE are running a 4 car EMU that is adequate capacity.
Oxenholme and Penrith only have an Intercity service to London because they are stops on the service to Carlisle and Glasgow/ Edinburgh once you remove that through traffic theres no justification in terms of passenger numbers for the service at all.

As I mentioned previously on this thread, the Avanti service (along with the TPE) serves as the local, regional and intercity service for the region. Oxenholme is also a railhead for the South Lakes, whilst Penrith does the same for the North Lakes.

Those ORR figures don't take into account the fact that Lake District traffic (especially Oxenholme) is largely seasonal.

If the resource is already allocated (and it is - a Pendo and Preston crew waiting at Preston), then there is no reason the service shouldn't operate as far as it can.

 

[43066]

If the resource is already allocated (and it is - a Pendo and Preston crew waiting at Preston), then there is no reason the service shouldn't operate as far as it can.

Not necessarily. Preston is a train crew depot but there may well not be enough units south of Preston to run the service north of that location and still maintain the (far more intensively used) service to the south.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not necessarily. There may well not be enough crew and units south of Preston to run the service north of that location and still maintain the (far more intensively used) service to the south.

I don’t get your logic.

If a Preston crew is allocated to a set, and the set has come up on a London-Glasgow trip, there is absolutely no reason that journey shouldn’t go ahead.

The service to the North shouldn’t be disrupted purely to maintain service to the South.