Newport Transport

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, they have quite a lot of routes which operate outside of their area. Chepstow - Monmouth 65 & 69. Chepstow - Lydney/Cinderford 72. Chepstow Locals C1/2/3/4. Monmouth - Abergavenny 68. Raglan - Abergavenny - Brynmawr A3. Calidocot 75. TrawsCymru T7 runs Magor - Chepstow - Bristol.


Near first for operating solely in another country country, but it's far from the first municipal to run buses which operate solely outside of their county. Cardiff Bus operate the local B1 and B2 in Barry which is Vale of Glamorgan Council. Reading Buses runs lots of buses which don't run into Reading Councils area, albeit does so using it's subsidiaries. Warringtons Own Buses had local buses in Leigh and evening buses in Runcorn, they have the contract for Widnes colleges and have dabbled in Merseyside only contracts before now. There's other examples too of course.

I think the OP was suggesting it was notable that they were operating a service wholly outside their country, let alone county

Of course, many municipals and PTEs have run services out of their county (incl. wholly outside of their county) since dereg and even before. Remember that SELNEC/Greater Manchester Transport had a depot in Derbyshire in 1972!

 

[Newport Lad]

There’s the usual criticism on other social media about the expansion of NT. But times have changed and running buses in a dying city like Newport surely can’t sustain the operation alone. It’s good to the expansion - the 711 however is a complete random!

 

[slowroad]

There’s the usual criticism on other social media about the expansion of NT. But times have changed and running buses in a dying city like Newport surely can’t sustain the operation alone. It’s good to the expansion - the 711 however is a complete random!

Don’t know about the “dying” bit. The city centre seems to be, but in terms of overall population Newport is one of the fastest growing areas in Wales. And in general it is in more affluent areas that buses struggle most, as people shift to cars as incomes rise.

I reckon they are diversifying in advance of franchising - a big risk.

 

[Open top 80]

I think the OP was suggesting it was notable that they were operating a service wholly outside their country, let alone county

Of course, many municipals and PTEs have run services out of their county (incl. wholly outside of their county) since dereg and even before. Remember that SELNEC/Greater Manchester Transport had a depot in Derbyshire in 1972!

Greater Manchester transport had a depot in Glossop took over from North Western

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Greater Manchester transport had a depot in Glossop took over from North Western

Yes - that was what I referring to

 

[Westnat]

Don’t know about the “dying” bit. The city centre seems to be, but in terms of overall population Newport is one of the fastest growing areas in Wales. And in general it is in more affluent areas that buses struggle most, as people shift to cars as incomes rise.

I reckon they are diversifying in advance of franchising - a big risk.

What do you mean by diversifying, and why is it a big risk? It's tendered work.

 

[slowroad]

What do you mean by diversifying, and why is it a big risk? It's tendered work.

Sorry, I was not clear. I meant franchising us a big risk - if the company did not win the Newport franchise(s) and had no other business they would have to shut up shop completely. So Flixbus and tendered services in England provide some “insurance”.

 

[Westnat]

Sorry, I was not clear. I meant franchising us a big risk - if the company did not win the Newport franchise(s) and had no other business they would have to shut up shop completely. So Flixbus and tendered services in England provide some “insurance”.

Ok, no problem, I see what you meant.

 

[Dai Corner]

It would certainly be ironic if the Welsh Government's franchising plans resulted in Newport's buses being run by a private company largely owned by a German bank instead of the City council. I'm not sure the remaining Flixbus, English tender(s) and coach hire would be a viable business?

 

[slowroad]

It would certainly be ironic if the Welsh Government's franchising plans resulted in Newport's buses being run by a private company largely owned by a German bank instead of the City council. I'm not sure the remaining Flixbus, English tender(s) and coach hire would be a viable business?

I suppose it depends on how Wales is split up, but Newport Transport might hope to pick up something in SE Wales, even if not all/some
of the city itself.

In general you would expect franchising to favour larger companies due to high up front bidding costs, ability to fund bus purchases etc.

 

[Mollman]

I suppose it depends on how Wales is split up, but Newport Transport might hope to pick up something in SE Wales, even if not all/some
of the city itself.

In general you would expect franchising to favour larger companies due to high up front bidding costs, ability to fund bus purchases etc.

Which is the big political risk with franchising in Wales. It wouldn't go down well if the two municipal operators and a large chunk of the small independent local operators were replaced by 'faceless' overseas (or even English) companies

 

[TravelDream]

In general you would expect franchising to favour larger companies due to high up front bidding costs, ability to fund bus purchases etc.

This is true.
Plus I imagine Welsh franchising will be quite conservative and not want to rock the boat.

 

[GusB]

If the subject is veering towards franchising in Wales rather than Newport Transport, perhaps it should go in the appropriate thread.

Wales looks at bus franchising

https://www.gov.wales/bus-reform-wales-our-roadmap-franchising This document has been produced by the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales (TfW) to outline our proposed approach to bus franchising. It explains why we are introducing change, what our vision is for bus services in Wales...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[slowroad]

Which is the big political risk with franchising in Wales. It wouldn't go down well if the two municipal operators and a large chunk of the small independent local operators were replaced by 'faceless' overseas (or even English) companies

Maybe (unofficially!) Newport (and Cardiff?) would like out. Newport in particular was loss-making for a number of years prior to Covid. (Don’t know about Cardiff.)

 

[Christian Schm]

FWIW The Monmouthshire County Council tender document specified first & last buses, frequency, and school services. Operators were free to design timetables on that basis (although the tender also included sample timetables). The tender also explicitly encouraged alternative timetables and linked bids, though award was 100% price.

For route 75 the tender only required the Sudbrook and Caerwent legs - but as the old timetable had lots of downtime Newport Bus decided to add the Magor/STJ** element to it. I guess you could argue that the 75 is now three interoperated routes, a bit like the C1/C2/C3 in Chepstow. Those have separate route numbers and timetables, but with footnotes telling passengers if the trip continues to somewhere interesting (e.g. Chepstow Tesco's).

Mod note: Please clarify STJ

 

[markymark2000]

FWIW The MCC tender document specified first & last buses, frequency, and school services. Operators were free to design timetables on that basis (although the tender also included sample timetables). The tender also explicitly encouraged alternative timetables and linked bids, though award was 100% price.

This would make sense why the new timetables are an absolute mess and in standard Newport Bus style, one person writes the Monday-Friday timetable, someone else writes the Saturday timetable and there is almost no link at all between the two. Such a shame to see how routes like the 68 went from a nice and simple timetable to.... whatever Newport bus are offering and with their mass interworking of absolutely everything, one small problem is going to snowball very quickly across the network.

For route 75 the tender only required the Sudbrook and Caerwent legs - but as the old timetable had lots of downtime Newport Bus decided to add the Magor/STJ element to it. I guess you could argue that the 75 is now three interoperated routes, a bit like the C1/C2/C3 in Chepstow. Those have separate route numbers and timetables, but with footnotes telling passengers if the trip continues to somewhere interesting (e.g. Chepstow Tesco's).

How did Newport Bus come out cheaper than Monmouthshire Council running things themselves?

 

[Christian Schm]

Don’t know about the “dying” bit. The city centre seems to be, but in terms of overall population Newport is one of the fastest growing areas in Wales. And in general it is in more affluent areas that buses struggle most, as people shift to cars as incomes rise.

I reckon they are diversifying in advance of franchising - a big risk.

The City Centre was anchored by a Debenhams store. It was actually a new one, and a profitable one, but when the chain went, so went the Newport store.

Re franchising, note that Welsh Government is also proposing that councils can run their own bus services - which I guess in Newport's case would mean Newport Bus is would simple run a service determined and paid by the council. The more interesting thing is how this would fit with tenders/franchising elsewhere. In the EU there is rule that you can do one or the other, but not both. So the City of Hamburg just asks Hochbahn to operate most of their bus services, but that means Hochbahn is not allowed to go for tenders elsewhere. If there was a similar rule it is more the Newport Bus-operated Monmouthshire/FOD bus services that are at risk then Newport Bus as a comapny...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

This would make sense why the new timetables are an absolute mess and in standard Newport Bus style, one person writes the Monday-Friday timetable, someone else writes the Saturday timetable and there is almost no link at all between the two. Such a shame to see how routes like the 68 went from a nice and simple timetable to.... whatever Newport bus are offering and with their mass interworking of absolutely everything, one small problem is going to snowball very quickly across the network.


How did Newport Bus come out cheaper than Monmouthshire Council running things themselves?

One key reason for difference in Mon-Fri and Saturday timetables is that the former are normally build round school times while the latter can ignore them. That is unavoidable in a rural county where it is absolutely essentially for buses to service secondary schools. The 68 previously didn't serve schools, there were plenty of calls for it to do so, it does now, but it is thus now also impossible to run an even 2-hourly frequency.

MCC is effectively an operator of last resort. It had picked up routes here and there (or even individual trips on the Monmouth town routes) when there were no other operators, or tender bids were unaffordable. This time round bids were invited for all routes, and (with the help of the Welsh Government's Bus Network Fund) there was sufficient funding to contract for (nearly*) all routes.

(*=A5 & A6 obviously ended up with MCC, for lack of useful bid)

 

[Dai Corner]

How did Newport Bus come out cheaper than Monmouthshire Council running things themselves?

One reason might be this

This would make sense why the new timetables are an absolute mess and in standard Newport Bus style, one person writes the Monday-Friday timetable, someone else writes the Saturday timetable and there is almost no link at all between the two. Such a shame to see how routes like the 68 went from a nice and simple timetable to.... whatever Newport bus are offering and with their mass interworking of absolutely everything, one small problem is going to snowball very quickly across the network.

if the interworking and messy timetables means they can make do with one less bus and driver. As a previous poster noted, the award was made purely on price; you tend to get what you pay for.

By the way, the City timetables don't vary that much between M-F and Sat except for the 16A/C where the frequency is halved on Saturdays for some reason. There are the usual early morning and peak extras M-F, of course. Also some journeys to/from random stops near schools which used to dead runs for schools services.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure they only have one scheduler!

 

[markymark2000]

One key reason for difference in Mon-Fri and Saturday timetables is that the former are normally build round school times while the latter can ignore them. That is unavoidable in a rural county where it is absolutely essentially for buses to service secondary schools. The 68 previously didn't serve schools, there were plenty of calls for it to do so, it does now, but it is thus now also impossible to run an even 2-hourly frequency.

Even in other areas, there are ways to have consistency. There's very few examples of such different Saturday timetables, to this level. I've seen some Saturday & School Hol timetables but this is a new level. 5 of the 7 trips each way run differently to the Monday-Friday timetable. Diversion for a school, slightly longer journey time for traffic both make sense. It doesn't make any sense though to revamp the timetable just for a Saturday. The first and last round trip are the same Monday-Saturday but the other 5 trips in between are different. Just run the School Holiday timetable on Saturdays, that is what almost everyone else does. In addition to this, on this new 68 timetable, Monmouthshire are now paying for a tender to directly duplicate over a commercial route (Phil Anslow 83), sure there are rules around this?

MCC is effectively an operator of last resort. It had picked up routes here and there (or even individual trips on the Monmouth town routes) when there were no other operators, or tender bids were unaffordable. This time round bids were invited for all routes, and (with the help of the Welsh Government's Bus Network Fund) there was sufficient funding to contract for (nearly*) all routes.

And sadly MCC awarded it to the company who would provide the worst possible experience for customers in terms of timetables. You've now lost branded buses as well (Phil Anslow branded buses for the 63/69 and the Monmouthshire Council minibus branded for the 65). What a great recipe for encouraging people onto the bus network. Sure Monmouthshire haven't sat back and gone 'We are happy with this outcome'. One or two passengers may be happy with timetables but it does nothing to encourage more people onto the network or encourage existing users to travel more.

By the way, the City timetables don't vary that much between M-F and Sat except for the 16A/C where the frequency is halved on Saturdays for some reason. There are the usual early morning and peak extras M-F, of course. Also some journeys to/from random stops near schools which used to dead runs for schools services.

1, 13, 16/16A 26A/26C, 27 all half frequency, 6/7 run quite differently between 7-9am and 2-4pm (not a school day/holiday variation), 20/21 some trips quite different. 31A/31C, 65 completely different, X30 runs 10 mins earlier on Saturdays than the Mon-Fri, 37 half frequency and some trips. 40/41 half frequency and none of the times match Mon-Fri. 42/43 buses run 4 minutes earlier on Saturdays! 60 is on half frequency into Newport, only 2 of the 7 departures match Mon-Fri. 73 has a random diversion off to Mathern. 74A/74C quite a few differences which make no sense.

Not sure how that is 'don't vary that much'.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure they only have one scheduler!

It was meant as a bit of a tongue in cheek comment because of how different they are, it is as if they were written completely separately.

 

[Newport Lad]

This would make sense why the new timetables are an absolute mess and in standard Newport Bus style, one person writes the Monday-Friday timetable, someone else writes the Saturday timetable and there is almost no link at all between the two. Such a shame to see how routes like the 68 went from a nice and simple timetable to.... whatever Newport bus are offering and with their mass interworking of absolutely everything, one small problem is going to snowball very quickly across the network.


How did Newport Bus come out cheaper than Monmouthshire Council running things themselves?

You appear to be obsessed with this but only when Newport Bus do it. Take a look at Anslows M1/2/3 - vastly different. Then there the 24x where if it’s a school day - fat chance of getting a bus mid afternoon.

Have you been out on a Saturday recently - it’s dead is most places early morning, picks up but then most towns are lifeless from about 3pm.

 

[markymark2000]

You appear to be obsessed with this but only when Newport Bus do it. Take a look at Anslows M1/2/3 - vastly different. Then there the 24x where if it’s a school day - fat chance of getting a bus mid afternoon.

Have you been out on a Saturday recently - it’s dead is most places early morning, picks up but then most towns are lifeless from about 3pm.

Anslow have their own issues, including the 24x. I was however keeping on topic as this is a Newport Bus thread. Complaints regarding Phil Anslow would be for a Phil Anslow thread.

As is clear across the forum, I am not really loyal to any operator and poor timetables like the above, will be called out, whoever the operator. Your local independent, municipal or big 5 operator.

 

[Dai Corner]

, 13, 16/16A 26A/26C, 27 all half frequency, 6/7 run quite differently between 7-9am and 2-4pm (not a school day/holiday variation), 20/21 some trips quite different. 31A/31C, 65 completely different, X30 runs 10 mins earlier on Saturdays than the Mon-Fri, 37 half frequency and some trips. 40/41 half frequency and none of the times match Mon-Fri. 42/43 buses run 4 minutes earlier on Saturdays! 60 is on half frequency into Newport, only 2 of the 7 departures match Mon-Fri. 73 has a random diversion off to Mathern. 74A/74C quite a few differences which make no sense.

Not sure how that is 'don't vary that much'.

Thanks for your detailed research, I didn't have the patience I'm afraid so understated the position.

It was meant as a bit of a tongue in cheek comment because of how different they are, it is as if they were written completely separately.

My response was tongue in cheek too. I think it's true though.

Have you been out on a Saturday recently - it’s dead is most places early morning, picks up but then most towns are lifeless from about 3pm.

I'm not sure whether he's been to Newport at all, let alone daytime on a Saturday? Friday and Saturday evenings are busy and buses might well pay their way or even make some money if they ran later, like Stagecoach do to the Valleys.

 

[Newport Lad]

I'm not sure whether he's been to Newport at all, let alone daytime on a Saturday? Friday and Saturday evenings are busy and buses might well pay their way or even make some money if they ran later, like Stagecoach do to the Valleys.

All Stagecoach buses in the valleys (except x24) are heavily subsidised by the respective councils. If Newport Council put some money up then there may be some more evening buses.

 

[Christian Schm]

1, 13, 16/16A 26A/26C, 27 all half frequency, 6/7 run quite differently between 7-9am and 2-4pm (not a school day/holiday variation), 20/21 some trips quite different. 31A/31C, 65 completely different, X30 runs 10 mins earlier on Saturdays than the Mon-Fri, 37 half frequency and some trips. 40/41 half frequency and none of the times match Mon-Fri. 42/43 buses run 4 minutes earlier on Saturdays! 60 is on half frequency into Newport, only 2 of the 7 departures match Mon-Fri. 73 has a random diversion off to Mathern. 74A/74C quite a few differences which make no sense.

Saturdays have so far bounded back less than Mon-Fri, hence e.g. 60 now on Mon-Fri better than 2019, on Sat worse. Re 73, there are residents in Mathern that regularly use the MCC Grassroutes demand responsive service. But that doesn't operate on Saturdays, so there needs to be at least some service. Re 65, route 69 drops from hourly to two-hourly on Saturdays, so 65 is timed to run in the gaps so there are still hourly departures from Chepstow and Monmouth

 

[markymark2000]

Saturdays have so far bounded back less than Mon-Fri, hence e.g. 60 now on Mon-Fri better than 2019, on Sat worse. Re 73, there are residents in Mathern that regularly use the MCC Grassroutes demand responsive service. But that doesn't operate on Saturdays, so there needs to be at least some service. Re 65, route 69 drops from hourly to two-hourly on Saturdays, so 65 is timed to run in the gaps so there are still hourly departures from Chepstow and Monmouth

Saturdays will bounce back slower when the timetables are as poor as they are (and granted, this issue existed before April it has gotten significantly worse since April thanks to Newport Bus)

60 - Only better now because Newport are using it as a dead mileage service to get buses to/from the other routes.
73 - Interesting way of looking at it, surely you would divert regularly or not at all? Makes a mess of the service to randomly divert on just a Saturday.
65 - the 65 and 69 are completely different routes and so combining them to make an even frequency makes no sense at all.


Seems very much like making excuses rather than actively acknowledging that the new timetables are a mess; it looks like they have been created in such a way that will actively discourage passengers from using the services. In my opinion, the contracts shouldn't have been awarded in this way. So much potential, so poorly executed. Is it any wonder that people drive when councils are giving, clearly unqualified, operators free reign to do what they want, and they come up with this. I bet even First's AI rubbish could come up with better than this and that is saying something! As someone else said above. Pay peanuts...

 

[Simon75]

Does Newport Transport have any outstations?

 

[Dai Corner]

Does Newport Transport have any outstations?

No.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Bustimes is now showing NT's predicted allocations for the rest of the day. Useful if you want to ride or photograph a particular vehicle or study the scheduling.

The 12 (Sainsbury's free bus) now appears to be booked for a double decker rather than a Yutong E12 and is usually a 20+ year old Trident. Not sure what Sainsbury's think about that!

 

[Christian Schm]

Saturdays will bounce back slower when the timetables are as poor as they are (and granted, this issue existed before April it has gotten significantly worse since April thanks to Newport Bus)

60 - Only better now because Newport are using it as a dead mileage service to get buses to/from the other routes.
73 - Interesting way of looking at it, surely you would divert regularly or not at all? Makes a mess of the service to randomly divert on just a Saturday.
65 - the 65 and 69 are completely different routes and so combining them to make an even frequency makes no sense at all.


Seems very much like making excuses rather than actively acknowledging that the new timetables are a mess; it looks like they have been created in such a way that will actively discourage passengers from using the services. In my opinion, the contracts shouldn't have been awarded in this way. So much potential, so poorly executed. Is it any wonder that people drive when councils are giving, clearly unqualified, operators free reign to do what they want, and they come up with this. I bet even First's AI rubbish could come up with better than this and that is saying something! As someone else said above. Pay peanuts...

I'd be interested to see your proposals for better timetables. I'm sure Newport Bus would be interested too!

Re Saturdays, it really is the other way round. We could see that on routes where there was basically no change in timetable, where Saturdays rebounded less.
Re 73 - in principle I would agree with all or nothing. But as said, there is a (small) demand for one Saturday bus, and there is a regular Grassroutes bus on Mon-Fri. Why insist on a principle just to make the timetable look neater if there is little demand?
Re 65/69 - there is substantial patronage between Monmouth and Chepstow, that is passengers going all the way. For them the fact that 65 and 69 go different ways is not an issue, so having an hourly service on Saturday does make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Does Newport Transport have any outstations?

I'm sure they used to have one? Somewhere along the A40 just north of Monmouth, I'm sure I saw Newport Bus vehicles parked up there? Would be great to see that back...

 

[markymark2000]

I'd be interested to see your proposals for better timetables. I'm sure Newport Bus would be interested too!

Easy. You'd make Saturday timetables the same as they are on Mon-Fri, give or take. Newport Bus offered a chat with their commercial team, I'm awaiting to hear back from them.

Re Saturdays, it really is the other way round. We could see that on routes where there was basically no change in timetable, where Saturdays rebounded less.

One route may have the same timetable but if lots of people connect from that route onto another and the other route has a worse Saturday service, because of poorer connections people would travel less. There may be various other reasons unrelated to buses but for some, this sort of thing will be a factor in choosing to travel less on Saturdays. For it to be a fair test, the network would have had to return to 100% post Covid.

For the rest, it's going around in circles so i'll give up on the specifics. There is clearly an unwillingness to become more passenger friendly with and kind of goal to raise patronage (as such enabling a reduction in the subsidy required by the council) and instead just throw shed loads of money at Newport Bus who, are now running what they want, as/when it is convenient for them. Mass interworking so delays in Chepstow suddenly affect a bus in Abergavenny, removal of route branded buses because of the mass interworking. If Newport is anything like it was not so long ago, it was full of agency staff too which provided a low quality of service for passengers. It's all just more evidence to add to the book of councils failing public transport and it's users.

 

[Newport Lad]

You really confuse me.On one hand 1) you want buses to return to 100% pre covid yet they were designed for different travel patterns.
2) you have an obsession with Saturdays being the sane. All over the world there are examples where Saturdays do not match Monday to Fridays. The volume of people is not the same
3) you want to see a reduction in the cost to the public yet you are advocating spending more money to bring Saturdays the same as Monday to Friday.
4) follow your thoughts to its logical conclusion - why do it different on Sundays?
5) you clearly have some axe to grind with Newport Bus & Monmouthshire Council as you are conveniently ignoring the situation elsewhere
6) which would you prefer? Agency staff or the service not run? Who do you think will staff your extra Saturday buses?
7) what branded buses are Newport not using correctly