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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

skyhigh

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and it was like that when I was driving in the Bicester area as well.
Looking on Zap Map, Bicester Village has 14x22kW posts. In Bicester, two council car parks have another 28x22kW, Tesco has 4x7kW and 2x75kW as well as a petrol station with 4x150kW units. Plus the Holiday Inn with another 6x7kW units. Then there's the pub with 2 chargers, the eco village with 14.

There are another 14 rapids within a 10 mins drive.

I'd think it unlikely all were broken or in use.
 
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RailWonderer

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Looking on Zap Map, Bicester Village has 14x22kW posts. In Bicester, two council car parks have another 28x22kW, Tesco has 4x7kW and 2x75kW as well as a petrol station with 4x150kW units. Plus the Holiday Inn with another 6x7kW units. Then there's the pub with 2 chargers, the eco village with 14.

There are another 14 rapids within a 10 mins drive.

I'd think it unlikely all were broken or in use.
Most people are not using a hotel and paying for parking, and even people without EVs are parking in EV spaces. Then you need to pay for a permit on council car parks even if you don't charge your car. Again for somebody not doing much mileage the savings really are minimal.
 

Donny Dave

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I'm very late to the party on this discussion, but here's my tuppence worth....

Battery powered EV is not the way forward IMO, as no doubt, many people have mentioned in this thread, the range on them is abysmal, and the lack of charging infrastructure (although it is getting better). The better way forward is hydrogen power, as it just as clean as electricity (possibly cleaner, depending on the source), and infinitely renewable, as the waste product is water, which can be converted back to hydrogen. The downside though is that you need a huge amount of cap-ex to create the infrastructure, and a monumental amount of health and safety to stop things going pop.

James May, while he was still part of Top Gear, travelled to California way back in 1999 (I think it was) to look at hydrogen powered cars, and the infrastructure required, and was very positive about the whole concept. At the time, running costs were about the same as conventional petrol powered vehicles, but this has possibly changed since.
 

Bald Rick

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With most people doing 50 miles a day

This isnt the case. The average mileage of a car is 19 miles a day, so to say that most people do 50 is somewhat wide of the mark.

and 200+ mile range cars

But many are 300+, some over 400. It woudl be interestinng to know the average range of Evs being sold now, I reckon it will be closer to 300 than 200.


a ratio of 1:4 is possible but I think 1:2 is more realistic as many will have shorter ranges and most don't want to coordinate charging.

This assumes that everyone will only ever charge their cars at ‘home’, which is obviously not the case. Assuming an average range of 250 miles, average mileage (19 per day), and that 70% of charging is done at ‘home’ (complete guess, but seems reasonable), then the average car will need charging at home once every 18 days. On that basis, 1:10 seems more than adequate.



Battery powered EV is not the way forward IMO, as no doubt, many people have mentioned in this thread, the range on them is abysmal

Have a read of the thread and the evidence.

The better way forward is hydrogen power, as it just as clean as electricity (possibly cleaner, depending on the source)

Again, have a read of the evidence. Hydrogen power is grossly inefficient in automtoive applications, and as a result isnt cleaner than electricity
 

Noddy

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I'm very late to the party on this discussion, but here's my tuppence worth....

Battery powered EV is not the way forward IMO, as no doubt, many people have mentioned in this thread, the range on them is abysmal, and the lack of charging infrastructure (although it is getting better). The better way forward is hydrogen power, as it just as clean as electricity (possibly cleaner, depending on the source), and infinitely renewable, as the waste product is water, which can be converted back to hydrogen. The downside though is that you need a huge amount of cap-ex to create the infrastructure, and a monumental amount of health and safety to stop things going pop.

James May, while he was still part of Top Gear, travelled to California way back in 1999 (I think it was) to look at hydrogen powered cars, and the infrastructure required, and was very positive about the whole concept. At the time, running costs were about the same as conventional petrol powered vehicles, but this has possibly changed since.

Pretty certain the Top Gear visit was around 2010, but regardless hydrogen for overland travel isn’t going to happen. Apart from few minor exceptions in the commercial world where the vehicle is running 24/7 such as large plant in certain quarries, agriculture vehicles, don’t expect to see a hydrogen vehicle in your lifetime.
 
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trebor79

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I'm very late to the party on this discussion, but here's my tuppence worth....

Battery powered EV is not the way forward IMO, as no doubt, many people have mentioned in this thread, the range on them is abysmal, and the lack of charging infrastructure (although it is getting better). The better way forward is hydrogen power, as it just as clean as electricity (possibly cleaner, depending on the source), and infinitely renewable, as the waste product is water, which can be converted back to hydrogen. The downside though is that you need a huge amount of cap-ex to create the infrastructure, and a monumental amount of health and safety to stop things going pop.

James May, while he was still part of Top Gear, travelled to California way back in 1999 (I think it was) to look at hydrogen powered cars, and the infrastructure required, and was very positive about the whole concept. At the time, running costs were about the same as conventional petrol powered vehicles, but this has possibly changed since.
Range and charging are absolutely fine. I do 1,000 miles a week and several hundred miles a day fairly often and never had an issue. 3 years ago there was a lack of charging infrastructure. Not now. I literally never think about it. Don't even worry about booking hotels with chargers as they are becoming ubiquitous. Last week I stayed in Lincoln and both my hotel and the one next door had chargers, as do many of the council run car parks, even little ones with 30 spaces had 4 AC sockets.

Hydrogen . It's grossly inefficient and way more expensive than even petrol on a £/mile basis."Ah but you could make it from excess renewables". Yep, or I could just charge a battery for 90% efficiency rather than the 20% offered by hydrogen.

You come across as thinking EVs haven't progressed from the short range Leafs and few and far between chargers of a decade or so ago.
Get yourself a test drive and at least talk from a point of some knowledge.
 

E27007

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Hyrdogen is written about as if it is a fuel, not really accurate, you do not combust hydrogen, you create hydrogen eg by electrolysis of H2O by seperating hydrogen and oxygen using an energy source, then return the hydrogen to the state of H2O after performing work making the vehicle move).
I believe hydrogen is not simply a substitute for petrol, as "fill the tank and drive", a hydrogen-powered car has a traction battery , and the hydrogen fuel cell charges the traction battery.
 

Energy

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This isnt the case. The average mileage of a car is 19 miles a day, so to say that most people do 50 is somewhat wide of the mark.
Fair point, no idea where I got 50 from!
But many are 300+, some over 400. It woudl be interestinng to know the average range of Evs being sold now, I reckon it will be closer to 300 than 200.
I suspect it will go down rather than up. I reckon we'll see more of the ~50kw highly efficient 200-250mi EV, the range is high enough for most people, a smaller battery is much lighter and cheaper, and it can charge fairly quickly even on a slow charger. Vauxhall had this with the Corsa and Astra Electric, though they have a weird pricing system with the list price being bad but the real-world dealer price being quite good. The Citreon e-C3 looks to be in this class but with good pricing.

300+, 400+mi EVs will continue but will be premium motorway cruisers rather than the everyday car IMO.
This assumes that everyone will only ever charge their cars at ‘home’, which is obviously not the case. Assuming an average range of 250 miles, average mileage (19 per day), and that 70% of charging is done at ‘home’ (complete guess, but seems reasonable), then the average car will need charging at home once every 18 days. On that basis, 1:10 seems more than adequate.
The problem with 1:10 is the risk that someone parks in the charging spot but isn't charging. We'll see government policy encourage more single-car households, which should improve off-street parking.
the range on them is abysmal
The range is adequate for most people.
and the lack of charging infrastructure (although it is getting better)
Public charging infrastructure is getting good now, though pricing needs work and local charging can really depend on your local authority.

EV charging infrastructure is much easier than hydrogen. As far as the installer is concerned lower powered units are a self-contained box that needs connecting to mains electricity. Civils and possibly a new grid connection are required but neither are new skills.

Hydrogen filling stations are much more involved. The ones for the Toyota Mirai use liquid hydrogen transported via lorries.
The better way forward is hydrogen power, as it just as clean as electricity (possibly cleaner, depending on the source),
Electrolysis is only 40% efficient, and its difficult to improve. From a kwh basis you will always pay at least 2.5x for hydrogen over electricity.
and infinitely renewable
Wait until you hear about renewable electricity...
James May, while he was still part of Top Gear, travelled to California way back in 1999 (I think it was) to look at hydrogen powered cars, and the infrastructure required, and was very positive about the whole concept. At the time, running costs were about the same as conventional petrol powered vehicles, but this has possibly changed since.
And yet since 2010 electric vehicles have become more common place while for hydrogen there is a poorly selling Toyota and only 4 filling stations in the UK.
Hyrdogen is written about as if it is a fuel, not really accurate, you do not combust hydrogen, you create hydrogen eg by electrolysis of H2O using an energy source, then return the hydrogen to H2O after performing work making the vehicle move).
Hydrogen engines do combust it. Fuel cells recombine it with oxygen, as the molecules want to recombine you can capture energy from this.
I believe hydrogen is not simply a substitute for petrol, as "fill the tank and drive", a hydrogen-powered car has a traction battery , and the hydroegen fuel cell charges the traction battery.
Fuel cell vehicles have a small traction battery which is topped up by the fuel cell. Toyota has designed the Mirai to be fairly close to a normal car but with a different filling station.

Underneath fuel cell vehicles are essentially an EV with a fuel cell attached. They have most of the components of an EV only forgoing the larger battery and its associated cooling. As such they are much more complicated than an EV.
 

MotCO

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James May, while he was still part of Top Gear, travelled to California way back in 1999 (I think it was) to look at hydrogen powered cars, and the infrastructure required, and was very positive about the whole concept. At the time, running costs were about the same as conventional petrol powered vehicles, but this has possibly changed since.
James May bought a Toyota Mirai (hydrogen powered) in late 2019, and sold it in 2021, citing the lack of fuelling stations as a major reason for selling it.
 

trebor79

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Hyrdogen is written about as if it is a fuel, not really accurate, you do not combust hydrogen, you create hydrogen eg by electrolysis of H2O by seperating hydrogen and oxygen using an energy source, then return the hydrogen to the state of H2O after performing work making the vehicle move).
Actually most hydrogen is made by steam reformation of methane, releasing vast quantities of CO2 in the process.
Any green hydrogen should be used to decarbonise those industries that require hydrogen (eg fertiliser production), not squandered on transportation. Economics do not favour it's use in transportation anyway.
James May bought a Toyota Mirai (hydrogen powered) in late 2019, and sold it in 2021, citing the lack of fuelling stations as a major reason for selling it.
They sold less than 100 cars in the UK. I believe only the filling station in Aberdeen is in working order. Meanwhile hydrogen filling stations on the continent have largely all closed.
It's not a viable technology.

EVs are better to stay and getting better all the time.
 

jon0844

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There were lots of foreign videos published from the Austrian launch last week, but now here's the first UK coverage of the Citroen e-C3.


I think this is a groundbreaking car, regardless of whether you personally would buy it. While VW is bragging that it will have a cheap car by 2027, this is shipping late summer.

I appreciate we have the Dacia Spring even cheaper, but I suspect this will suffer less depreciation and therefore be a smarter buy for many (especially those leasing). That's not to say you wouldn't benefit from buying a second hand Spring in a year or two, likely for nearer £10k.
 

E27007

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We were encouraged by the EU to purchase and drive diesel cars from around 2005 until recently, diesel cars were conflated with being "green" in the public mind, green for CO2 emissions, yet none of the Euro emissions regulatiojs had not-to-exceed limits for CO2. There are not-to-exceed limits for Nox which the carmakers circumvented by manipulation of vehicle control systems , "illegal defeat devices", "dieselgate" discovered and dealt with by the USA EPA.
We have had dieselgate, could the be an ZEVgate where defeat devices could be used to inflate the true range of a ZEV and suppress information as to battery condition during the warranty period?
 

Energy

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We have had dieselgate, could the be an ZEVgate where defeat devices could be used to inflate the true range of a ZEV
Battery conditions depend on speed, weather etc. Typical mileage is done using WLTP which is a mix of driving . However WLTP can be cheated, most noticeably by plug in hybrids which get insane MPG because the WLTP test is only slightly longer than their battery range.
 

Noddy

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We were encouraged by the EU to purchase and drive diesel cars from around 2005 until recently, diesel cars were conflated with being "green" in the public mind, green for CO2 emissions, yet none of the Euro emissions regulatiojs had not-to-exceed limits for CO2. There are not-to-exceed limits for Nox which the carmakers circumvented by manipulation of vehicle control systems , "illegal defeat devices", "dieselgate" discovered and dealt with by the USA EPA.
We have had dieselgate, could the be an ZEVgate where defeat devices could be used to inflate the true range of a ZEV and suppress information as to battery condition during the warranty period?

Battery conditions depend on speed, weather etc. Typical mileage is done using WLTP which is a mix of driving . However WLTP can be cheated, most noticeably by plug in hybrids which get insane MPG because the WLTP test is only slightly longer than their battery range.

As @Energy alludes to WLTP doesn’t just apply to EVs, but also hybrids and conventional ICE cars, so if manufacturers can invent a cheat to inflate the battery range it’s just as likely they could invent a cheat to inflate the mpg.

Criticism of the WLTP system is fair and procedure does need improving to reflect the real world ranges and mpgs.
 

stuu

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We were encouraged by the EU to purchase and drive diesel cars from around 2005 until recently, diesel cars were conflated with being "green" in the public mind, green for CO2 emissions, ye
It wasn't anything to do with the EU, it was a UK policy as a way of reducing CO2
 

trebor79

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We were encouraged by the EU to purchase and drive diesel cars from around 2005 until recently, diesel cars were conflated with being "green" in the public mind, green for CO2 emissions, yet none of the Euro emissions regulatiojs had not-to-exceed limits for CO2. There are not-to-exceed limits for Nox which the carmakers circumvented by manipulation of vehicle control systems , "illegal defeat devices", "dieselgate" discovered and dealt with by the USA EPA.
We have had dieselgate, could the be an ZEVgate where defeat devices could be used to inflate the true range of a ZEV and suppress information as to battery condition during the warranty period?
The WLTP test is the WLTP test and I think everyone knows that the figures aren't achievable in real world conditions.
EV Database gives "real world" figures which seem to accurately tally with EV drivers experience.
 

E27007

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The WLTP test is the WLTP test and I think everyone knows that the figures aren't achievable in real world conditions.
EV Database gives "real world" figures which seem to accurately tally with EV drivers experience.
Stated battery capacity vs real-world capacity is not a simple matter, a battery subject to current draw of 10 amps may take 10 hours to discharge (capacity = 10 x 10 = 100 AmpHrs), if the current draw is 20 amps, time to discharge will not halve to the common sense 5 hours , it may be only 4 hours (battery capacity = 20 x 4 = 80AmpHrs) , draw a high current and the battery may be exhausted in minutes, the apparent capacity vs load discrepancy is known as Peukerts Law.

Since a ZEV must be sold with a defined warranty on the battery, and the car maker must warrant the battery will last and have a not-to-exceed degradation specification for capacity, future disputes may centre on how the battery capacity is measured by the battery condition diagnostic reporting systems of the ZEV.
 
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Energy

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Stated battery capacity vs real-world capacity is not a simple matter, a battery subject to current draw of 10 amps may take 10 hours to discharge (capacity = 10 x 10 = 100 AmpHrs), if the current draw is 20 amps, time to discharge will not halve to the common sense 5 hours , it may be only 4 hours (battery capacity = 20 x 4 = 80AmpHrs) , draw a high current and the battery may be exhausted in minutes, the apparent capacity vs load discrepancy is known as Peukerts Law.
Lithium Ion batteries have a lower internal resistance than lead acid so Peukerts is less of a concern.

For consumers, I think supplying miles per kWh & the range at 20, 30, 50, and 70mph is enough information to draw their likely range for that car.
Since a ZEV must be sold with a defined warranty on the battery, and the car maker must warrant the battery will last and have a not-to-exceed degradation specification for capacity, future disputes may centre on how the battery capacity is measured by the battery condition diagnostic reporting systems of the ZEV.
Most manufacturers already have a warranty on the battery.
 

Mawkie

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For consumers, I think supplying miles per kWh & the range at 20, 30, 50, and 70mph is enough information to draw their likely range for that car.
I think current averages are between and 3.5 and 4.5 miles per kWh.

Are there any new technologies, or battery manufacturing techniques, on the horizon that will improve that?
 

E27007

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Lithium Ion batteries have a lower internal resistance than lead acid so Peukerts is less of a concern.

For consumers, I think supplying miles per kWh & the range at 20, 30, 50, and 70mph is enough information to draw their likely range for that car.

Most manufacturers already have a warranty on the battery.
It is my understanding,in the 2024 Act of Parliament " ZEV Mandate" to meet the legal specification of a ZEV, the manufacturer must offer a long warranty on the battery. I believe that Parliament proposed a warranty specification for battery degradation of less than 30%, the car makers sought 35% for permitted degradation of the battery. The battery warranty does not seem to be an option or a "perk" from manufacturer to the buyer.
 

Roast Veg

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I think current averages are between and 3.5 and 4.5 miles per kWh.

Are there any new technologies, or battery manufacturing techniques, on the horizon that will improve that?
Not building heavy and unaerodynamic SUVs would be a good start. The Mercedes EQXX concept had more than 6.0m/kWh, but "it's not what the market wants".

Battery technology won't improve the overall efficiency, since the losses are through the traction inverters, electric motors, and tyre friction. All of these components have had many decades of work done on them for other applications, so any change will be incremental rather than revolutionary.
 

E27007

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The new technology on the horizon to improve vehicles efficiency may be advanced forms of autonomous driving systems , advanced autonomous systems where vehicles are transmitting and receiving information to each other, AI and autonomous driving systems could enable such vehicles to form safe "bumper to bumper" close-convoys of vehicles with benefits of reduction in aerodynamic losses due to drag. Such advanced systems may also operate the cars better than a human driver, good forward planning by the AI system leading to smooth progress for the journey with a reduction in the number or severity of braking or accelerating manoevres, such manoevres making high demands upon the battery pack
 

jon0844

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The new technology on the horizon to improve vehicles efficiency may be advanced forms of autonomous driving systems , advanced autonomous systems where vehicles are transmitting and receiving information to each other, AI and autonomous driving systems could enable such vehicles to form safe "bumper to bumper" close-convoys of vehicles with benefits of reduction in aerodynamic losses due to drag. Such advanced systems may also operate the cars better than a human driver, good forward planning by the AI system leading to smooth progress for the journey with a reduction in the number or severity of braking or accelerating manoevre, such manoevres making high demands upon the battery pack
That's not going to happen anytime soon. Elon will keep lying that it's coming 'next year' but hasn't been able to beyond level 2.

Other trials are in extremely limited areas and also have many well publicised issues. There are also investigations into false claims and promises in order to get permission to run autonomous tests/trials through questionable lobbying.

The absolute best way to reduce energy consumption is to make cars lighter and smaller. Sure, some people need them, but most don't and buy them as fashion statements.

A small city car with a small battery can still have a decent range, and cost less to buy and run, as well as charge (and quicker to charge too).

Hire a bigger car or van when you need it. Don't haul around 2000+ Kg to do the school run or a 1 mile round trip to Sainsbury's.
 

AM9

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That's not going to happen anytime soon. Elon will keep lying that it's coming 'next year' but hasn't been able to beyond level 2.

Other trials are in extremely limited areas and also have many well publicised issues. There are also investigations into false claims and promises in order to get permission to run autonomous tests/trials through questionable lobbying.

The absolute best way to reduce energy consumption is to make cars lighter and smaller. Sure, some people need them, but most don't and buy them as fashion statements.

A small city car with a small battery can still have a decent range, and cost less to buy and run, as well as charge (and quicker to charge too).

Hire a bigger car or van when you need it. Don't haul around 2000+ Kg to do the school run or a 1 mile round trip to Sainsbury's.
Actually, smaller (presumably bringing lower aerodymnamic resistance) is good, but weight reduction does not necessarily bring the same energy improvements. The big difference with EVs is that although it takes more energy to accelerate a heavy vehicle and drag it up an incline, normal braking and downhill driving allows much of the kinetic energy invested to be partially recharging the battery. Of course those who driver everywhere slowing down using only heavy (almost emergency) braking, will be paying extra for their poor driving skills.
 

Harpers Tate

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Smaller does not necessarily equal better aerodynamics. My Ioniq Hatch (family size 5 seater) is about 20-25% more efficient than an E-Smart for 2. Shape is a big factor.
 

greyman42

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There was an article on Talk TV this morning that said that the value of second hand EVs are plummeting.
 

jon0844

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There was an article on Talk TV this morning that said that the value of second hand EVs are plummeting.

Too many car makers were charging too much. Batteries are cheaper now and the market is settling, just as it did a few years ago following second hand cars being worth almost as much as new due to high demand a shortage of new cars.

It's great news for buyers right now. About time after years of paying over the odds.
 

AM9

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Smaller does not necessarily equal better aerodynamics. My Ioniq Hatch (family size 5 seater) is about 20-25% more efficient than an E-Smart for 2. Shape is a big factor.
That's true, but all other things being equal, a smaller vehicle with the same level of streamlining as a larger one will have slightly less air resistance. The e-smart is a town car with far less attention to its aerodynamic qualities.
 

E27007

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That's true, but all other things being equal, a smaller vehicle with the same level of streamlining as a larger one will have slightly less air resistance. The e-smart is a town car with far less attention to its aerodynamic qualities.
Drag = drag factor (Cd) multiplied by frontal area, and it is an engineers compromise, make a vehicle with a low-drag rear end, a Kammback, the vehicle is long, and if the vehicle is typically operated at low speeds, not much of a benefit in operation
 

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Not building heavy and unaerodynamic SUVs would be a good start. The Mercedes EQXX concept had more than 6.0m/kWh, but "it's not what the market wants".

Battery technology won't improve the overall efficiency, since the losses are through the traction inverters, electric motors, and tyre friction. All of these components have had many decades of work done on them for other applications, so any change will be incremental rather than revolutionary.
Mercedes are doubling down on SUVs, because that is what the market wants.
I'm not sure how you will have EV pickups and Landies without needing a truck driving licence for weight limits either.
 

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