Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

Just been on one of these, have to say out of all of the Aventras, this is by far the best one out there.

Those that say that they are dull and boring should jump on a Class 700 some day.

Exactly my thoughts. They are pretty much perfect for the job, and provide a pleasant, up to date passenger experience for commuters. I think the design has been very well thought out based around their role.
Went on a 700 the other day and I can safely say the 701s are a big step forward from that in a number of aspects

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==

701044 has just left Vauxhall P1 after being parked up with one door open and what looked like a marketing team boarding.

Any ideas what this is for?

Well if you say it looked like a marketing team then possibly they are creating some sort of promotional material for the trains? Depends on what exactly you mean by "what looked like a marketing team"
I've had a look at RTT and there's nothing for 701044 on there. 043 running it's normal diagram as usual

 

[Goldfish62]

Clapham Junction-yes. Not sure about Vauxhall.

At Clapham Junction the boxes are near the red hut things where the despatchers live between trains.

I would guess that because they're fitted at Waterloo and Clapham Junction they're also fitted at Vauxhall. The signals certainly have what looks like the displays on them.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Well if you say it looked like a marketing team then possibly they are creating some sort of promotional material for the trains? Depends on what exactly you mean by "what looked like a marketing team"
I've had a look at RTT and there's nothing for 701044 on there. 043 running it's normal diagram as usual

5Q30 0959 Clapham Yard to Waterloo via Hounslow Loop had a 14 minute call at Vauxhall P1 around 1100. Not unit number shown on RTT.

Then seems to be doing a couple of out-and backs to Twickenham (already done the first) and another round-the-Hounsles as 5Q31, 32, and 33., with random calls at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction and Putney on some runs.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

5Q30 0959 Clapham Yard to Waterloo via Hounslow Loop had a 14 minute call at Vauxhall P1 around 1100. Not unit number shown on RTT.

Then seems to be doing a couple of out-and backs to Twickenham (already done the first) and another round-the-Hounsles as 5Q31, 32, and 33., with random calls at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction and Putney on some runs.

Interesting. Could just be just some testing and the original poster confused the "marketing team" with some fitters, although I think that would be quite difficult

 

[158760]

Well if you say it looked like a marketing team then possibly they are creating some sort of promotional material for the trains? Depends on what exactly you mean by "what looked like a marketing team"
I've had a look at RTT and there's nothing for 701044 on there. 043 running it's normal diagram as usual

Interesting. Could just be just some testing and the original poster confused the "marketing team" with some fitters, although I think that would be quite difficult

Was a couple of guys with cameras with a couple guys in hi vis on the platform, and then they got on the train. Not that daft to think they were fitters .

 

[TEW]

It'll be PTI testing, especially with those station calls.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

701044 has just left Vauxhall P1 after being parked up with one door open and what looked like a marketing team boarding.

Any ideas what this is for?

Saw it speed through Richmond So it didn't call there. Not sure if it is related but the following Windsor service was 8 minutes late. Door release at all stations was painfully slow and could have caused the delay.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

It'll be PTI testing, especially with those station calls.

Apparently it was indeed PTI testing, specifically DCO camera testing

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

But hardly more embarrassing than a large fleet of trains that after four years, are only being used to operate four services a day ... I don't think SWR management are much concerned about embarrassment.

Never fear the NRC expires in just under a year then OLR can sort it out

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've had a look at RTT and there's nothing for 701044 on there.

I saw 701 044 at Clapham Junction a while earlier than that, in platform 6. That would have been at 10.16 as I was on the 09.49 from Epsom.

I agree there's nothing showing on RTT for it.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I saw 701 044 at Clapham Junction a while earlier than that, in platform 6. That would have been at 10.16 as I was on the 09.49 from Epsom.

I agree there's nothing showing on RTT for it.

The unit number isn't showing on RTT for 5Q30 to 5Q33, but it seems to have been at the right places at the right times to be that. .

 

[Goldfish62]

Never fear the NRC expires in just under a year then OLR can sort it out

And I can quite see that in a year's time things won't have moved on at all, except SWR will be even shorter of rolling stock because it won't have any 458/5s left.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

except SWR will be even shorter of rolling stock because it won't have any 458/5s left.

Rumours say that all 458 diagrams will be replaced by 701s by the December timetable change, although I slightly doubt that..? At the same time if training starts in around July or August (which is probably when it will from what I've heard, possibly), maybe they'd be able to get enough going. All we can do is speculate though. If the method of operation still hasn't been finalised then that's obviously going to delay it further

 

[DelW]

Rumours say that all 458 diagrams will be replaced by 701s by the December timetable change, although I slightly doubt that..? At the same time if training starts in around July or August (which is probably when it will from what I've heard, possibly), maybe they'd be able to get enough going. All we can do is speculate though. If the method of operation still hasn't been finalised then that's obviously going to delay it further

Frankly, nothing said by SWR about these trains has any credibility whatsoever now.

As an example, this tweet from July 2020 (originally linked from post 1712) shows SWR's Engineering Director explaining that the trains will be entering service during autumn 2020, with the full fleet over the following 18 to 24 months. Note that Covid was already factored in by then.

We're now 47 months on from there and a handful of units have run four services per day. Is it surprising that no-one believes anything SWR says?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Frankly, nothing said by SWR about these trains has any credibility whatsoever now.

As an example, this tweet from July 2020 (originally linked from post 1712) shows SWR's Engineering Director explaining that the trains will be entering service during autumn 2020, with the full fleet over the following 18 to 24 months. Note that Covid was already factored in by then.

We're now 47 months on from there and a handful of units have run four services per day. Is it surprising that no-one believes anything SWR says?

Interesting how they effortlessly cropped that out of the video on the website, this is the first time I've seen that version of the clip

 

[43096]

Rumours say that all 458 diagrams will be replaced by 701s by the December timetable change, although I slightly doubt that..? At the same time if training starts in around July or August (which is probably when it will from what I've heard, possibly), maybe they'd be able to get enough going. All we can do is speculate though. If the method of operation still hasn't been finalised then that's obviously going to delay it further

I'm not sure why anyone is bothering to post rumours (or, indeed, any statement from SWR management) as the company has zero credibility, given they have missed every single target for introduction of the 701s.

The only evidence worth considering is trains entering passenger service on an increasing basis.

 

[DMckduck]

Rumours say that all 458 diagrams will be replaced by 701s by the December timetable change, although I slightly doubt that..? At the same time if training starts in around July or August (which is probably when it will from what I've heard, possibly), maybe they'd be able to get enough going. All we can do is speculate though. If the method of operation still hasn't been finalised then that's obviously going to delay it further

How many of the 458 diagrams go down to Windsor? And where do the rest of the 458 diagrams go?

I mean we are in June now and the soft launch still hasn't introduced an evening peak or late night 701, nevermind one on a bank holiday. I think realistically by the end of the year the current diagram it partially covers will be fully covered by a 701 and thats about it

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The unit number isn't showing on RTT for 5Q30 to 5Q33, but it seems to have been at the right places at the right times to be that. .

I couldn't even see any 5Qxx at Clapham Junction showing for that time when I looked, and yes - I was in detail mode on a computer and with all operators selected...

 

[DCtrains]

Even if the signals are fitted with CD/RA at Clapham, there is definitely no platform equipment to use it. Only platforms 12-17, regarding the post about the boxes near the red hut, I would assume these are now defunct, and in the situation that CD/RA we’re to be used for 701s, new platform equipment would be required anyway, alongside staff as these platforms are usually peak time only dispatch, or just a member of Agency staff carrying out security walks

 

[Goldfish62]

Even if the signals are fitted with CD/RA at Clapham, there is definitely no platform equipment to use it. Only platforms 12-17, regarding the post about the boxes near the red hut, I would assume these are now defunct, and in the situation that CD/RA we’re to be used for 701s, new platform equipment would be required anyway, alongside staff as these platforms are usually peak time only dispatch, or just a member of Agency staff carrying out security walks

Thanks. So on that basis it would appear that introduction of the 701s is going to be pushed a long time into the future.

Time to send them to Southeastern, who would undoubtedly get them into service, with full DOO, very quickly. Better that than having them rotting in sidings for the next however many years.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

The unit number isn't showing on RTT for 5Q30 to 5Q33, but it seems to have been at the right places at the right times to be that. .

It was definitely 044 that came through Richmond non stop about 10:25

 

[DMckduck]

Thanks. So on that basis it would appear that introduction of the 701s is going to be pushed a long time into the future.

Time to send them to Southeastern, who would undoubtedly get them into service, with full DOO, very quickly. Better that than having them rotting in sidings for the next however many years.

Much more likely to see guards closing the doors full time at this rate, if platform upgrades still haven't been carried out and all these infrastructure issues and developments required

They've not even got on to the mainline yet to start finding issues with the platforms over there either.

If guards are guaranteed on the train already don't see why the DFT would bankroll tons of platform upgrades unless they are holding back the DOO card for another day

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Much more likely to see guards closing the doors full time at this rate,

If that does happen, what a massive waste of time, money, and disputes. All the RMT problems, that one month strike they went on a few years ago, the pushback with training, etc etc. The resources which have gone into assigning team members dedicated to this new method of operation, no doubt the material created for training DOO...

What a shame that these trains which provide a huge step up for passengers and offer, by suburban/metro standards, a good product have been caught up in all of this, along with the software problems, COVID and everything else which has happened.

No doubt people have had the same complaints multiple times on this forum, but this is now continuing even after months of the soft "launch", if you can even call it a launch

 

[MasterPhillips]

Even if the signals are fitted with CD/RA at Clapham, there is definitely no platform equipment to use it. Only platforms 12-17, regarding the post about the boxes near the red hut, I would assume these are now defunct, and in the situation that CD/RA we’re to be used for 701s, new platform equipment would be required anyway, alongside staff as these platforms are usually peak time only dispatch, or just a member of Agency staff carrying out security walks

DOO trains can also be dispatched with the use of a white flag or light being shone into a DOO camera to tell the driver when to shut the doors (CD), and then a green flag or light when ready to go (RA).

However with guards on board can’t see why they can’t do it at agreed stations.

 

[DMckduck]

If that does happen, what a massive waste of time, money, and disputes. All the RMT problems, that one month strike they went on a few years ago, the pushback with training, etc etc. The resources which have gone into assigning team members dedicated to this new method of operation, no doubt the material created for training DOO...

What a shame that these trains which provide a huge step up for passengers and offer, by suburban/metro standards, a good product have been caught up in all of this, along with the software problems, COVID and everything else which has happened.

No doubt people have had the same complaints multiple times on this forum, but this is now continuing even after months of the soft "launch", if you can even call it a launch

I just think that with the railway being public run so to speak and the ticket office closure turning out to be a massive political own goal, that any further destaffing of the railway especially when it comes to accessibility and availability of staff on board is not on the menu.

I suppose it's also lucky looking at the current mess that it wasn't agreed for DOO prior to this, otherwise the train still wouldn't be in service.

If I was a betting man, it's more than likely these trains move towards guard close if these problems persist, but we shall see I guess

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

DOO trains can also be dispatched with the use of a white flag or light being shone into a DOO camera to tell the driver when to shut the doors (CD), and then a green flag or light when ready to go (RA).

However with guards on board can’t see why they can’t do it at agreed stations.

Saves money on the equipment but still requires the permanent staffing from start to end of service that currently is not present.

Also seems very outdated, considering these trains are supposed to modernise the south western metro and suburban services..

 

[Stephen42]

How many of the 458 diagrams go down to Windsor? And where do the rest of the 458 diagrams go?

I mean we are in June now and the soft launch still hasn't introduced an evening peak or late night 701, nevermind one on a bank holiday. I think realistically by the end of the year the current diagram it partially covers will be fully covered by a 701 and thats about it

The diagrams for the last week of the 5 doing just Windsor runs was one pair of 458s and 4 pairs of 450s (with a 701 instead of a pair of 450 in the morning). A couple of other diagrams go to Windsor including another pair of 458s. In total looks like 7 pairs of 458s and the pair of 707s on a wide variety of routes. It will be easier to use displaced stock to cover the 458/407 diagrams than trying to replace directly with 701s.

Expanding the soft launch model would be inefficient so expect the regular training will need to begin and progress far enough for regular crews to do full diagrams. Once there's enough crew trained for one, expanding to several usually doesn't take that much longer.

 

[Goldfish62]

DOO trains can also be dispatched with the use of a white flag or light being shone into a DOO camera to tell the driver when to shut the doors (CD), and then a green flag or light when ready to go (RA).

We'll doubtless be told that while that's fine everywhere else it's not acceptable on the South Western. That seems to be how things work.

 

[Snow1964]

We'll doubtless be told that while that's fine everywhere else it's not acceptable on the South Western. That seems to be how things work.

This sounds like 701 saga is going to join the Paddington has its own rules thread, with staff inventing their own rules that aren't in any national rulebook or agreement.

 

[43066]

We'll doubtless be told that while that's fine everywhere else it's not acceptable on the South Western. That seems to be how things work.

It isn’t just done at the drop of a hat, though. The locations need to be staffed accordingly etc. It relies on platform staff, often several based on the length of the train. CD/RA needs the relevant equipment installed.

Also seems very outdated, considering these trains are supposed to modernise the south western metro and suburban services..

I wouldn’t say it’s outdated. CD/RA is in use at virtually every London terminal apart from Waterloo (as I think was discussed upthread).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2024 ==

We'll doubtless be told that while that's fine everywhere else it's not acceptable on the South Western. That seems to be how things work.

It isn’t just done at the drop of a hat, though. The locations need to be staffed accordingly etc. It relies on platform staff trained to dispatch, often several based on the length of the train and platform curvature. CD/RA needs the relevant equipment installed.

Also seems very outdated, considering these trains are supposed to modernise the south western metro and suburban services..

It wouldn’t say it’s outdated. CD/RA is in use at virtually every London terminal apart from Waterloo (as I think was discussed upthread).

If I was a betting man, it's more than likely these trains move towards guard close if these problems persist, but we shall see I guess

That’s probably the most likely solution, depending on location.

 

[TEW]

We'll doubtless be told that while that's fine everywhere else it's not acceptable on the South Western. That seems to be how things work.

I don't know how serious you were being, but that has basically already happened.

Problems with DCO dispatch are not a major issue with getting the trains in to service anyway since all trains will have a guard onboard who can dispatch when required. That's not to say the introduction wouldn't have been if there were no DCO dispatch at all.