CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

No, thankfully me and a few groups moved before we could get charged as some people (including me) were only on for 15 minutes.

I’d suggest writing to TFW because they shouldn’t be doing that.
They could be knowingly doing wrong, but the more usual reason is that they’re misinformed and doing it mistakenly.
By letting TFW know then they can pass it on to their manager and they’ll find out what’s going on and can if needed give them the correct information.

It’s made worse by the fact Liverpool Chester isn’t even a planned route for chargeable upgrades.

Interesting that there’s upgrades for that route then.

197024 is currently sitting on Pl8 at Crewe working 5Q45, just made its way onto ATC Crewe as I type. Is that the first of the ERTMS batch to make a move?

Nope, far from it. 024 and 003 have done ERTMS testing runs on the Cambrian.

 

[childwallblues]

197024 is currently sitting on Pl8 at Crewe working 5Q45, just made its way onto ATC Crewe as I type. Is that the first of the ERTMS batch to make a move?

There are only 12 platforms at Crewe. 197024 has been at Arriva Crewe for a long time and has moved around the depot.

 

[MP393]

If you remember the service it was working (and even better noticed the first name of the guard) I advise you to write into TfW about that. Not acceptable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==


It’s made worse by the fact Liverpool Chester isn’t even a planned route for chargeable upgrades.

The upgrades are in the machines for every route, even ones they aren’t planned for. The fares even show in the systems for the Heart of Wales stations!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

There are only 12 platforms at Crewe. 197024 has been at Arriva Crewe for a long time and has moved around the depot.

Yes there is. I was referring to Platform 8 but typed it rather fast. Apologies for any confusion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

Nope, far from it. 024 and 003 have done ERTMS testing runs on the Cambrian.

Thanks, hadn’t seen that one out and about yet on which would explain it if it’s been down the Cambrian.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The upgrades are in the machines for every route, even ones they aren’t planned for. The fares even show in the systems for the Heart of Wales stations!

Interesting! More likely to see them on HOW than the Cambrian though haha, assuming that HOW is cleared for 3 car 197’s at some point.
I remember a 3 car 175 being used down there for the royal Welsh once.

Thanks, hadn’t seen that one out and about yet on which would explain it if it’s been down the Cambrian

Don’t think they’ve been on the Cambrian since Mid-April so not sure where they’ve been since then

 

[MP393]

Interesting! More likely to see them on HOW than the Cambrian though haha, assuming that HOW is cleared for 3 car 197’s at some point.
I remember a 3 car 175 being used down there for the royal Welsh once.


Don’t think they’ve been on the Cambrian since Mid-April so not sure where they’ve been since then

“Every route” might of been a bit of an exaggeration on my part haha, I’ve just had a play round and I can find the upgrade prices for the Heart of Wales & Ffestiniog line which are two definitely not planned for SP. They aren’t on there for the likes of Ebbw, Maesteg or Cheltenham though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

Interesting! More likely to see them on HOW than the Cambrian though haha, assuming that HOW is cleared for 3 car 197’s at some point.
I remember a 3 car 175 being used down there for the royal Welsh once.

I think if not already there definitely was a proving run planned for the heart of wales, mainly in aid of getting them north to south in the event of blockades etc. A few 175s did venture down there even without the Welsh show before withdrawal, it certainly gets the locals giving a second look!

 

[danbarjon]

Was that the 1647 off Lime St? I was on that too - that guard was indeed a tad full on. Must have been 6 announcements before we’d even departed!

If that was the 17:05 Runcorn arrival then yes it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

If you remember the service it was working (and even better noticed the first name of the guard) I advise you to write into TfW about that. Not acceptable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==


It’s made worse by the fact Liverpool Chester isn’t even a planned route for chargeable upgrades.

I may write into them as his announcements was pretty frequent but I didn't hear anyone getting any information from him about how to upgrade unless he put everyone off

 

[Lurcheroo]

“Every route” might of been a bit of an exaggeration on my part haha, I’ve just had a play round and I can find the upgrade prices for the Heart of Wales & Ffestiniog line which are two definitely not planned for SP. They aren’t on there for the likes of Ebbw, Maesteg or Cheltenham though.

Oh fair enough haha ! I’d handed my retail kit back for the last time before they were added so didn’t get to have a play around with it see what they were all like.

I think if not already there definitely was a proving run planned for the heart of wales, mainly in aid of getting them north to south in the event of blockades etc. A few 175s did venture down there even without the Welsh show before withdrawal, it certainly gets the locals giving a second look!

Yeah it makes a lot of sense really.
Yep, always stirs up the local Facebook groups too I notice haha.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are only 12 platforms at Crewe. 197024 has been at Arriva Crewe for a long time and has moved around the depot.

It is typed Pl8 as in Pl - 8 not P - 18. TBF I can only just make out it is an "l" rather than a "1" with my poor old eyes !.

 

[TDK]

There is a plan being worked on that will free up space at Chester by using another stabling location nearby - but it will require a bit of work as TfW drivers aren't currently qualified to go in there.

Most maintenance on 158s is done at Mach. Light day to day maintenance is also carried out at Crewe and Canton, and also some of the heavier stuff that Mach isn't set up for. It's their home depot, but it's not like other places aren't allowed touch them.

That's interesting, where's this extra stabling location at or near Chester? I can't think of anywhere that could be suitable within walking distance of Chester Station with an authorised walking route? IMO if there's capacity more should be stabled at Crewe where there's refueling facilities, unfortunately TFW screwed up with the stabling of 197’s that was predicted 2 years ago by train crew but who ever listens to train crew?

 

[craigybagel]

That's interesting, where's this extra stabling location at or near Chester? I can't think of anywhere that could be suitable within walking distance of Chester Station with an authorised walking route? IMO if there's capacity more should be stabled at Crewe where there's refueling facilities, unfortunately TFW screwed up with the stabling of 197’s that was predicted 2 years ago by train crew but who ever listens to train crew?

It's not public knowledge yet or even been 100% confirmed so I can't say any more I'm afraid.

Arriva Train Care at Crewe is also pretty full at night, I reckon you'd struggle to get many more units stabled there. There are already issues with the MKIVs if they end up out of sync as they can't accept any note sets on than what's normally planned.

 

[cheekybifta]

People also seem very reluctant to more from the doors when full and standing, personally id rather stand in the middle of the train if i have to stand as long as i can be sure i can get off at my station of course.

Also noticed this on the 197s along the coast. They're loads nicer to travel on when full and standing than a 175 or 158, but people are reluctant to move down the aisles even when the people against the doors barely have enough space to get their phone out their pocket and the aisles are empty.

 

[Northerngirl]

Had that on one yesterday, it was only 2 car, so I thought there was no chance of getting a seat, but once I fought my way past the heard of people in the doors, half the carriage was empty. It's so irritating

 

[Bikeman78]

He was making them pay for the upgrade I didn't see anyone get moved but people where paying

Where did the guard find the appropriate upgrade price? It is simply the difference between first and standard for that journey?

 

[danbarjon]

Where did the guard find the appropriate upgrade price? It is simply the difference between first and standard for that journey?

As far as I was aware there is no First Class fare between Liverpool and Chester but I could be wrong as I was in a rush and didn't ask at the ticket office.

 

[sd0733]

Where did the guard find the appropriate upgrade price? It is simply the difference between first and standard for that journey?

There's standard plus fares in the Guards machines for most station pairs across the network, they're just not supposed to be used yet.
Essentially if they're visible on sites like BRfares, that's where they exist.

 

[Northerngirl]

How does it work if the first class is only part of the journey

 

[cheekybifta]

How does it work if the first class is only part of the journey

Been wondering this myself and hope it'll be cleared up on the TfW website when they start charging.

Still not completely sure how the 25% uplift on ticket price is calculated on a simple journey without changes. I'm guessing it's a 25% uplift on whatever advance, off-peak or anytime single fare you paid, or a 25% uplift on half the price of your return ticket.

 

[BenBracken]

The Pembroke Dock line should see 197s in the next few weeks, meaning more 2 car 197s cascaded to that line and taken from elsewhere. The remaining 3 cars to be delivered will just replace those 2 cars, so there won't be much capacity gains.

Will any appear at PD with the start of the new timetable on Sunday?

 

[BillStampy]

Will any appear at PD with the start of the new timetable on Sunday?

Almost certainly with the return of the Tenby service 1330 from Manchester in about a week, unless they continuously swap from Carmarthen

 

[Russel]

Reading this thread it looks like the 197s are being spread fairly thinly...

Did TFW not order enough or is this just down to the fleet being in a state of change and when everything is in service and bedded in, we'll see an improvement?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Reading this thread it looks like the 197s are being spread fairly thinly...

Did TFW not order enough or is this just down to the fleet being in a state of change and when everything is in service and bedded in, we'll see an improvement?

Some of it is the bathtub curve of reliability but a lot of the fleet has not been delivered into service yet. Meanwhile what they are replacing is going or gone (175s).

 

[BillStampy]

Did TFW not order enough or is this just down to the fleet being in a state of change and when everything is in service and bedded in, we'll see an improvement?

They DID order a lot, a few still haven't entered service. But the main issue is a bunch are being robbed for the wrong services (replacing 231s on Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham for the time being..)

 

[Russel]

Some of it is the bathtub curve of reliability but a lot of the fleet has not been delivered into service yet. Meanwhile what they are replacing is going or gone (175s).

They DID order a lot, a few still haven't entered service. But the main issue is a bunch are being robbed for the wrong services (replacing 231s on Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham for the time being..)

So there is light at the end of the tunnel then, when everything is in services we should see a few more doubled up 197s running around.

 

[Jez]

So there is light at the end of the tunnel then, when everything is in services we should see a few more doubled up 197s running around.

When they are all in service we should see 5 carriages on some services that are regularly 2 or 3 cars at the moment.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Some of it is the bathtub curve of reliability but a lot of the fleet has not been delivered into service yet. Meanwhile what they are replacing is going or gone (175s).

I presume you mean the class 756 and 398 fleets as the 197s are basically all in service as far as everything excluding the Cambrian is concerned. There’s just 3 x 3car units lefts.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I presume you mean the class 756 and 398 fleets as the 197s are basically all in service as far as everything excluding the Cambrian is concerned. There’s just 3 x 3car units lefts.

Oh yes the main gap is 197s for the Cambrian, which of course will see off the RETB (?) ERTMS fitted 158s.

Tantalisingly close to having all the non-Cambrian 197s in service now.

But of course many 197s are covering for other missing units. But until the Cardiff valleys electrification is advanced enough the new 756s are not too useful and then of course the 398s cannot be used until the TAM lines are fully electrified (three valley lines going through Pontypridd) anyway. How ready the 398s are I don't know but the 756s are probably easier to introduce than the 398s as the 756s are a version of the 231s in South Wales and of course similar to the 755s in Anglia. The 756s can cope with incomplete electrification as they have battery and diesel power on top of their 25kV AC capability.

Of course also 150s are covering some of the Valleys work but are meant to leave South Wales evntually.

That is probably enough mention of non-197s even though connected with 197s and why they are not where they should be !.

EDITed RETB (?) => ERTMS

 

[anamyd]

In terms of unit numbers of the non-ETCS 197s, the last I saw in here was that 197119/121/123/124/126 are left to enter service.

@Lurcheroo said "There's just 3 x 3car units lefts", and then @Peter Sarf said "Tantalisingly close to having all the non-Cambrian 197s in service now."

Have two of 197119/121/123/124/126 entered service? Typing each of those units' numbers into Realtime Trains' "quick search" returns "We cannot find any allocations for that rolling stock."

 

[JakeMurphy]

In terms of unit numbers of the non-ETCS 197s, the last I saw in here was that 197119/121/123/124/126 are left to enter service.

@Lurcheroo said "There's just 3 x 3car units lefts", and then @Peter Sarf said "Tantalisingly close to having all the non-Cambrian 197s in service now."

Have two of 197119/121/123/124/126 entered service? Typing each of those units' numbers into Realtime Trains' "quick search" returns "We cannot find any allocations for that rolling stock."

Seen 121 at Chester heading up the coast on a test run this afternoon. Not yet in service.

 

[sd0733]

Have two of 197119/121/123/124/126 entered service? Typing each of those units' numbers into Realtime Trains' "quick search" returns "We cannot find any allocations for that rolling stock."

None of those yet, 124 was supposed to be accepted a few days back and made it to Chester but seems to have returned to Crewe South Yard.

119 and 121 have been delivered to Crewe ATC and have started mileage/test runs, 123 i believe has been reported as at Crewe too but not sure about where 126 is.

 

[anamyd]

Thanks both