Should retailers get more share from tickets they sell?

[Red Rover]

That aren’t theirs if they sell them?
At the moment it’s around 10%? And the rest goes to the operator providing the service and then possibly split to others, is that right and fair? The TO staff could be there hours looking for the lowest fares and routes whilst fare paying customers for their TOC (fare flow) simply board without paying for a ticket as they have to go and in return that could be lost revenue? Or should advance fares only be available from the relevant TOC’s website and Ticket Offices?
30 minutes endeavour for £3 and customers boarding trains without tickets doesn’t seem progressive.

 

[Haywain]

It's not clear to me what you are suggesting. Are you saying that if TOC A sells a ticket routed 'TOC B only' they should get more commission, or are you suggesting that they do and that is to their disadvantage?

 

[Red Rover]

It's not clear to me what you are suggesting. Are you saying that if TOC A sells a ticket routed 'TOC B only' they should get more commission, or are you suggesting that they do and that is to their disadvantage?

Yes I’m saying that, why should TOC A get a measly commission.

 

[skyhigh]

The TO staff could be there hours looking for the lowest fares and routes

Does this actually happen in real life?

 

[AlterEgo]

30 minutes endeavour for £3 and customers boarding trains without tickets doesn’t seem progressive.

I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that ticket offices are taking half an hour to sell a customer an appropriate ticket?

 

[Red Rover]

Does this actually happen in real life?

What? A member of the public goes into Lime St and wants an EMR fare the cheapest but is flexible with time going to some destination? All the time. Why would Northern staff who’re being paid by Northern sell EMR fares for only 10% commission that could take them ages? Seems unfair.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==

I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that ticket offices are taking half an hour to sell a customer an appropriate ticket?

Yes, now travel centres have gone. Rail enquires can be very lengthy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, now travel centres have gone. Rail enquires can be very lengthy.

I'm struggling to fathom how it can take 30 minutes to sell someone a ticket. What sort of enquiry might generate that length of time?

 

[wilbers]

It would be unfair if it really did take 30 minutes rather than the 2 or 3 minutes its likely to actually take for something straightforward like that - if you are thinking of the time it would also take to check split tickets then ticket office staff don't routinely have to do that - only if specifically asked for a split or if its a common one they will already know it and may offer that as an option.

 

[Red Rover]

Rail enquires can easily take 15-20 minutes, for instance find the cheapest fares, routing, engineering works, strikes, customer assistance etc etc
So my point is why should staff in effect work far harder for less return for another TOC whilst their TOC suffers due to lost sales whilst assisting said customer? Doesn’t seem fair, they must get this at all interchange stations, Crewe, Preston and Reading for instance.

 

[skyhigh]

Rail enquires can easily take 15-20 minutes, for instance find the cheapest fares, routing, engineering works, strikes, customer assistance etc etc
So my point is why should staff in effect work far harder for less return for another TOC whilst their TOC suffers due to lost sales whilst assisting said customer? Doesn’t seem fair, they must get this at all interchange stations, Crewe, Preston and Reading for instance.

I think you are massively overstating the size of the issue. Major interchange stations will have more than one window open, the chances of them all being taken up with long transactions are slim. Then you have cash and card TVMs and phone apps available for simple tickets and barriers to stop people boarding without a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==

What? A member of the public goes into Lime St and wants an EMR fare the cheapest but is flexible with time going to some destination? All the time. Why would Northern staff who’re being paid by Northern sell EMR fares for only 10% commission that could take them ages? Seems unfair.

Given all the TOCs just get a management fee and all the ticket revenue passes straight to DfT/Treasury I don't see the issue. Doesn't matter if Northern get 10% or 50% for selling the tickets, it all goes to the same place.

 

[Red Rover]

I think you are massively overstating the size of the issue. Major interchange stations will have more than one window open, the chances of them all being taken up with long transactions are slim. Then you have cash and card TVMs and phone apps available for simple tickets and barriers to stop people boarding without a ticket.

What about busy stations (any station really) that don’t have those facilities, is it fair on other customers? The TOC that sells the ticket receives only 10% and loses out on potential revenue due to dealing with this customer?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==

I think you are massively overstating the size of the issue. Major interchange stations will have more than one window open, the chances of them all being taken up with long transactions are slim. Then you have cash and card TVMs and phone apps available for simple tickets and barriers to stop people boarding without a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==


Given all the TOCs just get a management fee and all the ticket revenue passes straight to DfT/Treasury I don't see the issue. Doesn't matter if Northern get 10% or 50% for selling the tickets, it all goes to the same place.

But is that fair on the TOC, that is my point?

 

[AlterEgo]

What about busy stations (any station really) that don’t have those facilities, is it fair on other customers? The TOC that sells the ticket receives only 10% and loses out on potential revenue due to dealing with this customer?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==


But is that fair on the TOC, that is my point?

It sounds like this is a very tiny subset of passengers that would have such a complex enquiry. Perhaps they should be charged for every minute of the staff's time they take up? Or be subject to a 5 minute limit, after which point a trap door will open and they will fall into a vault with an internet connected PC to do it themselves?

 

[Red Rover]

It sounds like this is a very tiny subset of passengers that would have such a complex enquiry. Perhaps they should be charged for every minute of the staff's time they take up? Or be subject to a 5 minute limit, after which point a trap door will open and they will fall into a vault with an internet connected PC to do it themselves?

I’m all for that.

 

[skyhigh]

So essentially your argument is that the whole commission system should be completely overhauled just because a small number of passengers need more detailed advice and don't want to use a website?

 

[Haywain]

you suggesting that ticket offices are taking half an hour to sell a customer an appropriate ticket?

That certainly can happen.

 

[Krokodil]

Does it matter? All of the money (assuming not a devolved TOC) ends up back at HM Treasury anyway.

 

[redreni]

What? A member of the public goes into Lime St and wants an EMR fare the cheapest but is flexible with time going to some destination? All the time. Why would Northern staff who’re being paid by Northern sell EMR fares for only 10% commission that could take them ages? Seems unfair.

Er, because it's swings and roundabouts?

EMR ticket offices have to sell tickets impartially as well, afaik.

If there really are people who are willing to pay but end up fare dodging because there's a queue, I would suggest Northern could make it easier to buy from TVMs or check tickets a bit more fastidiously. If people don't buy before they board when they ought to, they may end up paying more to buy on board or they may incur a penalty fare, neither of which would harm Northern's revenue.

 

[Red Rover]

It not swings and roundabouts though is it? Staff at say Basingstoke must do loads of advance purchase for other operators and getting a mere 10% for the aggravation seems a tad small.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

Does it matter? All of the money (assuming not a devolved TOC) ends up back at HM Treasury anyway.

If it’s not?

 

[Haywain]

It not swings and roundabouts though is it? Staff at say Basingstoke must do loads of advance purchase for other operators and getting a mere 10% for the aggravation seems a tad small.

The alternative would be to have no ticket offices. Why none? Because under your system every TOC would feel the need to have a ticket office at every station they serve, and the result would be none of them doing enough business to warrant staying open. Far better to have ticket offices required to act impartially of the operator/employer with an equal return on everything they sell.

 

[Red Rover]

The alternative would be to have no ticket offices. Why none? Because under your system every TOC would feel the need to have a ticket office at every station they serve, and the result would be none of them doing enough business to warrant staying open. Far better to have ticket offices required to act impartially of the operator/employer with an equal return on everything they sell.

No, I’m not saying that, what I’m suggesting is give more of a dividend to the TOC’s doing the work or make advance purchases online only or from the TOC providing the service, tickets could still be collected from any TOC.

 

[Krokodil]

If it’s not?

Well then the Welsh Government get a slightly smaller cut of a Cardiff to London ticket sold at Cardiff Central booking office than you think that they should, to the benefit of the English government. The world won't stop spinning.

 

[Haywain]

No, I’m not saying that, what I’m suggesting is give more of a dividend to the TOC’s doing the work

But that's exactly what would result from what you are saying.

 

[skyhigh]

make advance purchases online only or from the TOC providing the service, tickets could still be collected from any TOC.

But what if I want to pay cash and/or don't live near a station served by the TOC?

And should the ToD fee be increased due to the additional wear and tear on other operators machines? That's not far removed from what you're suggesting.

 

[Haywain]

And should the ToD fee be increased due to the additional wear and tear on other operators machines?

It wouldn't be wear and tear, so much as balancing the loss of revenue from not being permitted to sell such tickets.

 

[Red Rover]

But what if I want to pay cash and/or don't live near a station served by the TOC?

And should the ToD fee be increased due to the additional wear and tear on other operators machines? That's not far removed from what you're suggesting.

All machines are leased, why should another TOC do all the work for a pittance.

 

[skyhigh]

why should another TOC do all the work for a pittance.

I still don't understand why this is a problem.

All the revenue, income etc goes to the Government. The TOC gets a management fee.

Say Northern sells an Advance for LNER. No matter if the TOC commission is 10%, 20% or 50% Northern will retain the same amount and everything will go to the Government.

 

[The exile]

Yes I’m saying that, why should TOC A get a measly commission.

10% doesn’t seem measly to me. Anyway, with a few exceptions it’ll probably balance out. The interesting one is Cross Country as , IIRC, they don’t actually manage any stations.

 

[alistairlees]

The amount earned is 9%for sales from booking offices and TVMs anyway, not 10%.

 

[Haywain]

All the revenue, income etc goes to the Government. The TOC gets a management fee.

I don't see that as having any relevance - it wasn't seen as an unfair system before DfT was taking the revenue

 

[redreni]

10% doesn’t seem measly to me. Anyway, with a few exceptions it’ll probably balance out. The interesting one is Cross Country as , IIRC, they don’t actually manage any stations.

I am shocked the commission is as much as it is - I'd have guessed sub-5%.

It is my firm belief that ticket offices should be provided whether they generate enough revenue for the company to cover their operating costs or not. This is precisely why we have regulation to keep ticket offices open and selling tickets impartially whether they make money or not.

In reality, whilst the OP may perceive it is worth his time to sell high value 'Northern only' tickets, or 'Any Permitted' tickets where all or nearly all of the revenue goes to Northern under ORCATS, nearly all of the people buying those tickets would buy them whether the ticket office was there or not - probably from a Northern TVM or guard.

People who take a long time to buy an advance because they wouldn't trust themselves to buy the right tickets unless they'd been to the station and spoken to their (hopefully friendly, at least outwardly, even if inwardly seething and resentful) ticket office staff are a big part of the reason why people think ticket offices are still required. And the £3 commission they pay is a rare example of revenue generated for Northern that otherwise would have gone to Trainline if you're lucky, or more likely would have been lost to the rail industry completely.