Are buses outside London newer on average than London buses?

[renegademaster]

Anecdotally, I've been to Manchester, Birmingham, Brighton and Glasgow recently and seem to have come away with the impression that most of their buses are newer than ours, with about half being electric. Is this shown by statistics? Or could it just be bias that I only ever visited the town centers and the high profile routes get new busses first. Is it to do with TfL being broke, tendering vs deregulated buses or something else?

 

[Snow1964]

What has tended to happen in London, is that 2011-2015 London introduced lots of hybrid double deckers, and put many of them on central area routes.

Then most of the new routemasters 2013-2016 were on fairly central routes too, although towards the end of their introduction some suburban routes got them too.

There are now around 1300 electric buses in London in service, probably nearer 1400 if you include those waiting garage wiring and still being commissioned. What has tended to happen, is that routes going out to tender in recent years that had the oldest buses have been in outer London (for reasons as above, as a decade ago central areas were getting the low emission buses). So fair chunk of latest buses are on outer London routes.

From memory London has about 8500 buses, so around 15% are now electric. TfL seem to be working to a bus lifespan of 14 or 15 years.

 

[WM Bus]

Anecdotally, I've been to Manchester, Birmingham, Brighton and Glasgow recently and seem to have come away with the impression that most of their buses are newer than ours, with about half being electric. Is this shown by statistics? Or could it just be bias that I only ever visited the town centers and the high profile routes get new busses first. Is it to do with TfL being broke, tendering vs deregulated buses or something else?

Birmingham has 03 plate tridents on the road still. on the 63, 97, 14 today. But it looks like the end might be near for these. And 03/54 plate Gemini.

I think Coventry probably has one of the youngest if not the youngest fleets for any UK City.

 

[MotCO]

In a similar vein, I am always surprised at the number of new buses bought in the more remote part of Scotland, where I would have thought that passenger numbers were low. I'm thinking of new buses bought in places like the Shetland Islands and Lerwick, as evidenced by reports in Buses magazine.

 

[dgl]

In a similar vein, I am always surprised at the number of new buses bought in the more remote part of Scotland, where I would have thought that passenger numbers were low. I'm thinking of new buses bought in places like the Shetland Islands and Lerwick, as evidenced by reports in Buses magazine.

I wonder if weather conditions put quite a toll on their buses so the only way to get a decent amount of use out of a bus it to buy a new one. Also reliability must be quite important (no knackered unreliable heavily used buses) and I would assume the cost of transporting buses to the islands must also be a factor.

 

[stevieinselby]

I think Coventry probably has one of the youngest if not the youngest fleets for any UK City.

Another good contender would be York.
In First York's fleet, 74 out of 92 buses are less than 5 years old, and 53 of them less than 1 year old.
Pullman have 7 buses on service routes, all under 7 years old.
East Yorkshire buses are mostly under 5 years old.
Transdev buses on local routes are mostly under 5 years old, Coastliner are mostly 8 years old.
On the local routes, Connexions are the only ones with older buses.
Out-of-town buses run by Reliance and Arriva are a bit of a mixed bag.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Another good contender would be York.
In First York's fleet, 74 out of 92 buses are less than 5 years old, and 53 of them less than 1 year old.
Pullman have 7 buses on service routes, all under 7 years old.
East Yorkshire buses are mostly under 5 years old.
Transdev buses on local routes are mostly under 5 years old, Coastliner are mostly 8 years old.
On the local routes, Connexions are the only ones with older buses.
Out-of-town buses run by Reliance and Arriva are a bit of a mixed bag.

Arriva have recently swapped the 59/61 plate Gemini 2s for 17 plate MMCs bringing the age profile up even further, as well as Transdev losing most of the 12 plate versas.
I'd say the average age of a bus in York is now a 20 or 70 plate, the median is almost definitely between 2020 and 2022 though

From Sunday the only bus company in York regularly using buses older than 2014 on service work will be Connexions, along with Transdev's 1 remaining Versa per day, as we lose the 5 remaining First B7s properly

 

[Russel]

There is a lot less regulation outside of London which leads to a much greater variation of age and condition of the buses.

Colchester for example, First are still operating B7 Geminis and Eclipses, mostly coming up to 20 years old and looking their age, then you have Headingham running around with a motley collection of ex-London castoffs of various age and quality.

 

[Energy]

I think Coventry probably has one of the youngest if not the youngest fleets for any UK City.

Coventry is definitely up there for the youngest.

It's a good contender for the highest % of electric buses, with ~140/170 (82%) of NX Coventry being electric. Though there are some other operators.

 

[RT4038]

Coventry is definitely up there for the youngest.

It's a good contender for the highest % of electric buses, with ~140/170 (82%) of NX Coventry being electric. Though there are some other operators.

Coventry is a particularly special situation though, and not indicative of general fleet age in the provinces.

 

[matchmaker]

Stirling appears to be a dumping ground for Midland Bluebirds most ancient heaps, especially my local route the 54! A few hybrids and absolutely no electrics.

 

[Mikey C]

What has tended to happen in London, is that 2011-2015 London introduced lots of hybrid double deckers, and put many of them on central area routes.

Then most of the new routemasters 2013-2016 were on fairly central routes too, although towards the end of their introduction some suburban routes got them too.

There are now around 1300 electric buses in London in service, probably nearer 1400 if you include those waiting garage wiring and still being commissioned. What has tended to happen, is that routes going out to tender in recent years that had the oldest buses have been in outer London (for reasons as above, as a decade ago central areas were getting the low emission buses). So fair chunk of latest buses are on outer London routes.

From memory London has about 8500 buses, so around 15% are now electric. TfL seem to be working to a bus lifespan of 14 or 15 years.

It does seem a bit unfortunate that so many of London's electric buses operate in relatively leafy areas, rather down the congested and more polluted streets of central London, but as you say it's down to circumstances. And in a way it was better to test out the new technology on quieter routes.

I imagine the Borismaster have distorted things, as if they had been standard hybrid double deckers, maybe more of them would have been displaced to outer London routes and replace by electric buses by now.

 

[markymark2000]

Thankfully, the DFT have some stats on this one. The stats available are for financial years up until financial year ending March 2023. (Link to stats. Note that you have to download dataset BUS06 and it downloads into a spreadsheet). You'll need sheet/table BUS06f, titled 'Proportion of buses by year of manufacture used as Public Service Vehicles by metropolitan area status and country [note 9], local bus operators only [note 1]: Great Britain, year ending March 2023'
Buses manufactured between 2018/19 financial year and 2022/23 financial year (the oldest buses here would be 6 years old)
London has 15.5%, Scotland 29.9%, Wales 10.5%, England excluding London 11.8%.


Your other point for electric vehicles, that can be found in the same spreadsheet but switch to sheet BUS06e titled 'Percentage of buses used as Public Service Vehicles by emissions standards and fuel type by metropolitan area status and country [note 9], local bus operators only [note 1]: Great Britain, year ending March 2023, figures as at 31 March'
10.6% of Londons buses are electric, 11.4% of Scotlands buses are electric, 5.4% of Wales, 1.5% of England outside of London.

In both cases, the numbers will have changed as there have been a lot of buses delivered over the past 16 months. In November we will get updated stats for the 2023/24 financial year.



With regards to your general observations, I think that sometimes it can seem like there are a lot of new buses operating, there will also be a lot of old in the wider areas. Some buses also don't look as old as they actually are, if they are maintained well. For me, that is things like Streetlites still look modern, some of these are 15 years old now but to me, if the livery is smart and modern, I probably wouldn't be able to tell a 2010 Streetlite from a 2024 one. Looks can be deceiving if the bus is looked after.

 

[Alfie1014]

It does seem a bit unfortunate that so many of London's electric buses operate in relatively leafy areas, rather down the congested and more polluted streets of central London, but as you say it's down to circumstances. And in a way it was better to test out the new technology on quieter routes.

I imagine the Borismaster have distorted things, as if they had been standard hybrid double deckers, maybe more of them would have been displaced to outer London routes and replace by electric buses by now.

I think this a deliberate policy in part to counteract the ULEZ as the worst hotspots for roadside pollution are now in the outer suburbs where there is higher population density with a higher proportion of younger people likely to be effected.

 

[renegademaster]

I think this a deliberate policy in part to counteract the ULEZ as the worst hotspots for roadside pollution are now in the outer suburbs where there is higher population density with a higher proportion of younger people likely to be effected.

Its not the leafy areas of outer London. Its places like Thorton Heath

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

Some buses also don't look as old as they actually are, if they are maintained well

That could be it, the London garages don't seem to take brilliant care of their busses. Arriva especially

 

[AndrewP]

Visit Durham and you will see where old London buses can end up - very little newer here than even the oldest you get in London!

 

[joieman]

With regards to your general observations, I think that sometimes it can seem like there are a lot of new buses operating, there will also be a lot of old in the wider areas. Some buses also don't look as old as they actually are, if they are maintained well. For me, that is things like Streetlites still look modern, some of these are 15 years old now but to me, if the livery is smart and modern, I probably wouldn't be able to tell a 2010 Streetlite from a 2024 one. Looks can be deceiving if the bus is looked after.

I agree. Kinchbus's oldest buses now are seven 07-plate slimline Optare Solos used on the high-frequency Sprint bus service between the university and railway station in Loughborough. Having only been refurbished only about five years ago, they don't really feel as if they are actually seventeen years old, and all seven survive to the present day. Quite unlike Arriva's marginally older fleet of Wright Pulsar Geminis in Leicester, which, once numbering 32-strong, have as of now dwindled to just three (not helped by a string of accidents, the most recent of which occurred only last week).

 

[Busoccultation]

Apart from a few exceptions like Nottingham, Coventry and Oxford, I would say buses are generally older in most places outside of London than within the TfL land.

For example, a 12 to 15 year old bus can be considered as a mid-life fleet across most of the country, while in London a bus that is 12 to 15 years old are generally seen as end of life for TfL contracted services and does often get moved outside of London for further use.

 

[farwest]

Come to Cornwall and see First Kernow and your question will be instantly answered.