Help please! Notice of intention to prosecute recieved from FCC

[workshocker]

Hi

To cut a long story short, on a short commuter trip I sat in first class with a valid standard class ticket (7 day travelcard). I have been unwell, wasn't feeling great, standard class was packed, first class was empty ish and I was silly.

Revenue protection officers shortly thereafter boarded the train and basically started hauling me over the coals, in front of all the other passengers which I found humiliating. I was formally cautioned etc.

I offered to pay any penalty fare but was told that it would be dealt with by the prosecutions department, I have now received a notice of intention to prosecute for failure to have an appropriate ticket.

Can anyone help? I am desperate not to have a criminal conviction as I am a solicitor myself and could therefore lose my job.

 

[yorkie]

Seek legal advice! It may be best to offer to settle out of court (I have heard reports of people who offer a sum of around £200 being 'let off' with a warning, in some cases the cheque was also sent back).

There are many reports of FCC prosecuting on this forum, the most similar to yours is this one. I think they have 6 months to prosecute (can anyone confirm?) and the OP was not prosecuted in this case, FCC quietly dropped it. So I think the OP in that case is safe. But don't assume that the same will happen in your case.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Can anyone help? I am desperate not to have a criminal conviction as I am a solicitor myself and could therefore lose my job.

Yes, we have been able to assist others in comparable situations.

You will find similar threads in here relating to intended prosecution, and they will illustrate some of the background. There are 2 Offences which may be prosecuted, and it is usual for FCC to send you a form inviting you to make a Statement of Facts before they decide which Offence to prosecute.
One is under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 S.5 (which requires evidence of intent, albeit a brief moment of failing to take an opportunity) and which is a Criminal matter, and the other is under the Railway ByeLaws S.18 (which is an 'absolute offence', boarding without a valid ticket) which is a Civil matter.

Some details about the station, your ticket, and what you first said to the RPI will assist us further, as I expect the Penaly Fares regulations will probably have been applicable. Are you sure that the correspondence you have received is actually an Intention to Prosecute? (In which case it will surely indicate the actual offence and whether it is a Civil or Criminal matter - which you may have to deduce from the specified Court). Or might it be a stern wording of a letter advising you that the Company is considering prosecution and is seeking your, er, statement, aka self-incriminating evidence, before they decide?

There is a limit on how much detail and assistance it is appropriate to disclose on-line. This website limits the transmission of Private Messages to those who have made 5 or more postings.

I hope this helps.

EDIT:
Yorkie. Yes, though there is some confusion here. The Statute of Limitation is 6 years, which is the period of time within which a liability may (normally) be pursued. In a Summary Convictions the evidence has to come before a Court (usually Magistrates) within 6 months of the offence.

 

[workshocker]

Thanks for all your replies, cant believe how much this has ruined my day.....

the notice of intention to prosecute states te details of the offence - you were stopped and questioned in regard to the following alleged offence(s)
Occupy a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket.

does this mean its the byelaws offence? or could it be either?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, that would most likely be sucessfully prosecuted (sucess for them!) as the Civil ByeLaw offence. If it doesn't specify the Instrument (Act or ByeLaw) then it hardly amounts to anything.
But is it really just a letter advising you of the intention, or does it invite a response?

If you could also advise the stations between which you were travelling, one of us will be able to determine the applicability of the Penalty Fares regulations to that journey, and if you could indicate (approximately, in the interests of anonymity) how long ago this incident occurred, we'd be obliged.

 

[workshocker]

Yes, that would most likely be sucessfully prosecuted (sucess for them!) as the Civil ByeLaw offence. If it doesn't specify the Instrument (Act or ByeLaw) then it hardly amounts to anything.
But is it really just a letter advising you of the intention, or does it invite a response?

If you could also advise the stations between which you were travelling, one of us will be able to determine the applicability of the Penalty Fares regulations to that journey, and if you could indicate (approximately, in the interests of anonymity) how long ago this incident occurred, we'd be obliged.

"This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the magistrates court and the enclosed form provides you with the opportunity to tell us what happened from your point of view. Information should be both factual and honest".

I asked to pay a penalty fare and the RPI refused after checking my address as someone (other than me) other than me at the address had perviously had a penalty fare or something.

it was a short hop journey from a thameslink station in zone 2 to city thameslink. the incident occured within the last two weeks.

 

[Darandio]

"
I asked to pay a penalty fare and the RPI refused after checking my address as someone (other than me) other than me at the address had perviously had a penalty fare or something.

I am not sure how that would be relevant at all. Surely its not the discretion of an RPI to make a judgement just because someone at the same address had previous?

Is this definetely your first fare offence?

 

[workshocker]

I think so, although ive been commuting for 12 years so may have had a monthly run out or something. Certainly nothing like this has ever happened
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
one more till PM time

 

[westcoaster]

I was on about the same thing. I'm sure those in the know will help out more.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks for that additional info.
Well they're certainly well within the time limit. There's something else you've mentioned which appears (on the surface) may just be a small but relevant administrative error - but which is not in your interest to publicise on here at this stage.

But I'm now a little confused.
The phrase "Occupy a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket" is FCC's contraction of the wording in Railway ByeLaw S.19, which is a Civil matter for the County Court etc.
But they have advised you of their intention to take it to the Mags, in which case its surely the Criminal matter of the RoRA S.5 Offence, which requires evidence of 'intent' by yourself.
From what you've posted and what I recall (I have not checked with any authorities this evening), they'd be more likely to suceed with the Civil ByeLaw S.19 Offence.

Ignoring that letter which is inviting your evidence will put the entire burden of proof on FCC. I'm not persuaded that they have adequate evidence at this stage, but it does not help you to rely on mere 'probability' of sucess and impressive 'mitigation' in sentencing.
So a written response will probably be helpful. I and others here will be pleased to assist, all off-forum.

 

[workshocker]

thanks davenewcastle, since Ive started reading the forums re this, it has really spooked me, the thought of losing my livelhood over something so (seemingly) trivial without opportunity to pay a fine seems draconian.

How do I pm you?

 

[Darandio]

How do I pm you?

Click on the username, should give options.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Seek legal advice!

I agree with yorkie.
However, many 'family lawyers', high street 'law firms' and 'consumer specialists' will be unfamiliar with the arcane world of Railway Law.
I would advise you to continue taking specialist advice - from here or elsewhere, and if appropriate ensure that your Counsel is fully briefed.

It may be best to offer to settle out of court.

Yes, I agree again.
However I don't think we're quite in a position to apologise or offer anything yet, least of all to admit to anything that needs an apology or admission!

 

[workshocker]

can anyone recomend a lawyer dealing with railway law... still cant pm for some reason....

 

[workshocker]

No worries, thanks for your help. much appreciated, i dont have the ability to pm at the minute but hey.

 

[MikeWh]

I think there must be some process which runs periodically which changes members who have posted 5 or more posts to "Member" status from "New Member" status. This is not the first time I've noticed the 5th post have no effect on the rank. It is the first time I've seen it not happen before the 9th post.

Note to admins: Is there something that can be done about this? In this forum it is particularly frustrating to have to wait before private communication is enabled.

 

[HST Power]

I think there must be some process which runs periodically which changes members who have posted 5 or more posts to "Member" status from "New Member" status. This is not the first time I've noticed the 5th post have no effect on the rank. It is the first time I've seen it not happen before the 9th post.

Note to admins: Is there something that can be done about this? In this forum it is particularly frustrating to have to wait before private communication is enabled.

I don't quite get you, but I think it's either nine or ten posts to go from a New Member to Member, and around 590 to become Established.
The changeover is done automatically by the system. All good forum software has similar capabilities.

 

[yorkie]

5 posts will do it, but there is a time delay. (Feedback/requests are best sent using the Feedback form, a link is provided near the top of the forum index page, as not all posts will be read by staff, although in this section all posts would normally be read by staff).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The update is probably done on a cron job, so will be done when set on the system.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The OP has provided further clarification by PM and I hope others on here will be understanding if some discussions remain off-forum.
It appears to be a fairly straightforward attempt to obtain a witness statement before deciding whether or not to prosecute for the S.19 Byelaw Offence of travelling in First with a Standard Class ticket.

 

[Squaddie]

Is this definetely your first fare offence?

I think so, although ive been commuting for 12 years so may have had a monthly run out or something

How can anyone not remember whether they've been had up for a previous fare offence? It's the kind of thing that would stay in most people's minds - and certainly the mind of a solicitor - for a very long time.

And how likely is it that someone else at the same address has a record of similar offences?

I don't wish to appear unsympathetic, and do feel that court action is possibly a little over the top for a simple case of travelling first class without paying the correct fare, but I also feel that there might be more to this than is being disclosed. Serial fare evaders deserve neither sympathy nor advice.

 

[workshocker]

Hi Squaddie.

I can assure you I am not a fare dodger, I had a valid ticket just was in the wrong class. I may have had a penalty fare (payable immediatly) in the past, when I've forgotten my railcard expired, but I cant remember if they let me off or not.

I dont know about the past inhabitants of where I live, but we bought in 2006.

I am also not sure what went on amongst the RPC's, it was a garbled conversation... how can I check if something is registered against my address?

 

[Greenback]

The ticket was not valid as it was a standard ticekt and you were in first. If that is done deliberately then to many people you will be avoiding the correct fare.

 

[mumrar]

Hi Squaddie.

I can assure you I am not a fare dodger, I had a valid ticket just was in the wrong class.

I hate to nitpick but you did not have a valid ticket. Your ticket was for standard and by not choosing to be in standard your ticket was invalid.

 

[lyesbkz]

I think the OP has agreed that they made a mistake and did not hold a valid ticket, and the point they are trying to make is in response to Squaddie's post regarding serial fare evading.

Edit: just re-read, never mind

 

[nedchester]

The ticket was not valid as it was a standard ticekt and you were in first. If that is done deliberately then to many people you will be avoiding the correct fare.

I have to say that the railway does have a sledge hammer to crack a nut attitude with things like this. It does seem to like 'soft targets' doesn't it?

The OP sat in first class offer to pay the fare but is now (possibly) going to be prosecuted. Madness. Seems the FCC bounty hunters have been out again?

 

[Greenback]

I have to say that the railway does have a sledge hammer to crack a nut attitude with things like this. It does seem to like 'soft targets' doesn't it?

The OP sat in first class offer to pay the fare but is now (possibly) going to be prosecuted. Madness. Seems the FCC bounty hunters have been out again?

It does indeed. One of the drawbacks of having DOO is the inability to ensure that people do not sit in first unless they have a first class ticket. FCC then rely on RPI's to randomly catch people. (I realise that non DOO operatros also find it difficult to keep FC for FC ticket holders).

Now, if your FC season ticket is £1000 more than one in standard, then you will have to be caught upgrading yourself 50 times a year before you are any worse off. I don't know how likely this is, but some people mayw elld ecide to try it and see if it is worth their while. Some may even never get caught!

FCC are understandably worried about people doing that sort of thing, so want to make sure that there is a big disincentive to trying it. This is the threat of prosecution and a criminal record if the company is successful.

I can see their point of view, but do not necessarily agree with it.

 

[workshocker]

I think people need to realise what these commuter trains are like as well. We are talking hot/overcrowded/ people right in your face. I always normally stand, but this time i just felt crap and faint and sat... now i face a criminal record- it seems ridiculous.

 

[Mojo]

What was the departure time of your train? As there are a number of FCC services which have First class accommodation on the train but are not advertised as such.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think we have now determined that the service the OP boarded was more than likely to include advertised First Class accomodation.
An apology, an explanation and an offer of a settlement appear to be the best preospects at this stage.