Gatwick to Stansted through service

[Basil Jet]

TfL want to increase the frequency on the East London Line from 16tph to 20tph, and apparently the demand is in the historic core from Whitechapel to Surrey Quays. It occurred to me that if the Gatwick Express to Victoria was scrapped, and instead 4tph from Gatwick (or Brighton) ran to New Cross Gate, called at every station to Whitechapel, crossed over the GEML and then used a new ramp down to the north side of the GEML to serve the low-numbered platforms at Liverpool Street before reversing to Stansted to replace the Stansted Express, this would give a crucial new link from Liverpool Street to Gatwick, as well as being occasionally useful for journeys like Tottenham Hale to Gatwick or New Cross Gate to Stansted. The new curve would go through the Bishopsgate Goods Yard, which I think is listed, but I think this would be allowed, and would probably be the cheapest useful new rail link possible anywhere in London, if not Britain. The trains would probably be several carriages too long for the ELL stations, but I don't see that as a show stopper.

(Obviously I am aware that the ELL used to connect to the south side of the GEML long before the current bridge over the GEML was constructed.)

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Surely if there was a need to connect Stanstead with Gatwick it would be better to dust of NSEs proposal and use the GOBLIN?

 

[A0]

Why even bother connecting Gatwick and Stansted? There is hardly any "inter airport" traffic and the routes which do exist do so more through operational convenience than because there is huge demand for travel between

e.g.
Thameslink would still be Bedford - Brighton even if Gatwick or Luton airports didn't exist. National Express coaches from Gatwick heading north / north west go clockwise around the M25 and call at Heathrow because to get to their ultimate destinations they need to get to the M40 or M1, they'd still go that way if Heathrow wasn't there.

 

[30907]

1. The insuperable problem is that the ELL is limited to 5 cars - I doubt anyone would agree to running full-length trains through the tunnel section as evacuation in an emergency would be a nightmare, and station stops even with selective door opening would certainly be a no-no.

2. In what way is LST-GTW a "crucial" link, bearing in mind the alternatives via tube or Elizabeth Line? Nice to have, maybe, but not crucial.

(Edit to eliminate first use of abbreviation)

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Might possibly happen later in the future as part of a new Crossrail line? TfL has more important & bigger problems to deal with first such as EL's issues reported not long ago.

The current journey is not too bad, EL from Liv St to Farringdon for Thameslink to Gatwick, a lot better than before.

 

[stuu]

TfL want to increase the frequency on the East London Line from 16tph to 20tph, and apparently the demand is in the historic core from Whitechapel to Surrey Quays. It occurred to me that if the Gatwick Express to Victoria was scrapped, and instead 4tph from Gatwick (or Brighton) ran to New Cross Gate, called at every station to Whitechapel, crossed over the GEML and then used a new ramp down to the north side of the GEML to serve the low-numbered platforms at Liverpool Street before reversing to Stansted to replace the Stansted Express, this would give a crucial new link from Liverpool Street to Gatwick, as well as being occasionally useful for journeys like Tottenham Hale to Gatwick or New Cross Gate to Stansted. The new curve would go through the Bishopsgate Goods Yard, which I think is listed, but I think this would be allowed, and would probably be the cheapest useful new rail link possible anywhere in London, if not Britain. The trains would probably be several carriages too long for the ELL stations, but I don't see that as a show stopper.

(Obviously I am aware that the ELL used to connect to the south side of the GEML long before the current bridge over the GEML was constructed.)

Liverpool St to Gatwick is crucial? Really? Digging up half of Shoreditch is never going to be a better option than getting people to go to Farringdon, on one of the ~50 trains every hour. Like they can do now, with no capital expenditure required

 

[LMS 4F]

Just what the North of England needs, public money spent on another link in Greater London.
Leeds/Bradford airport doesn’t have a rail link and nor did the now closed Doncaster airport, the council is planning to open it again, although one was talked about for ever.
in any case should we not try and dissuade Air travel in these green times and anything that makes it easier should perhaps be discourage.

 

[Mgameing123]

Just what the North of England needs, public money spent on another link in Greater London.
Leeds/Bradford airport doesn’t have a rail link and nor did the now closed Doncaster airport, the council is planning to open it again, although one was talked about for ever.
in any case should we not try and dissuade Air travel in these green times and anything that makes it easier should perhaps be discourage.

London needs to continue improving rail connections and the North needs investment too.

 

[A0]

Just what the North of England needs, public money spent on another link in Greater London.
Leeds/Bradford airport doesn’t have a rail link and nor did the now closed Doncaster airport, the council is planning to open it again, although one was talked about for ever.
in any case should we not try and dissuade Air travel in these green times and anything that makes it easier should perhaps be discourage.

Perhaps if the "North of England" was as economically productive as Greater London it would justify such spending ?

Either way, air travel isn't going away - you're not going to persuade people to swap their two weeks in a Mediterranian island or at Disney for 2 weeks in Bridlington or Scarborough. And Leeds Bradford carries 10% of the number of passengers Gatwick does.

That said I'm far from convinced 'airport to airport' services are needed as the demand for travel between airports is low, which is why this suggestion makes no sense.

 

[JonathanH]

London needs to continue improving rail connections and the North needs investment too.

Continuing to improve rail connections doesn't always mean by introducing more through trains. Often the improvements delivered by making interchange easier are much better value for money and better for passengers.

 

[Basil Jet]

That said I'm far from convinced 'airport to airport' services are needed as the demand for travel between airports is low, which is why this suggestion makes no sense.

My OP never suggested that there was demand from airport to airport, but that people in Northeast London could benefit from a new route to Gatwick and that people in Southeast London could benefit from a new route to Stansted. The fact that air passengers have luggage means the same type of stock is needed for both of these flows, and the fact that people with luggage don't like interchanging means that they become a single through service rather than separate services interchanging at Liverpool Street (although guaranteed cross-platform interchange at Liverpool Street works too).

As for digging up half of Shoreditch, look at an aerial photo! The new curve would go through nothing but derelict piles of bricks.

 

[Mgameing123]

Continuing to improve rail connections doesn't always mean by introducing more through trains. Often the improvements delivered by making interchange easier are much better value for money and better for passengers.

Depends. This through train idea is silly as the transfer demand is mainly Heathrow to Gatwick. The only throughlink London needs right now is Crossrail 2. But seeing the East London Line frequency increase is lovely.

 

[SynthD]

Would the ramp cut off Brick Lane?

What would a platform of passengers with suitcases at Wapping be like? It needs a Farringdon type rebuild for length and width.

What is the current passenger flow from Gatwick to Stansted?

 

[Jan Mayen]

It occurred to me that if the Gatwick Express to Victoria was scrapped, and instead 4tph from Gatwick (or Brighton) ran to New Cross Gate, called at every station to Whitechapel, crossed over the GEML and then used a new ramp down to the north side of the GEML to serve the low-numbered platforms at Liverpool Street before reversing to Stansted to replace the Stansted Express, this would give a crucial new link from Liverpool Street to Gatwick

Please don't scrap the Gatwick Express! I use it almost every day!

 

[Mikey C]

Stansted is basically a low cost airline airport, with point to point travel. There's no need for connections to other airports.

Luton is the same. It has a connection to Gatwick, but that's not deliberate!

 

[Magdalia]

if the Gatwick Express to Victoria was scrapped

This would leave Gatwick with no direct service to London's West End, where many of the big tourist hotels are located.

give a crucial new link from Liverpool Street to Gatwick

No, it is not crucial. The City of London already has good links to Gatwick via Thameslink.

The new curve would go through the Bishopsgate Goods Yard

As for digging up half of Shoreditch, look at an aerial photo! The new curve would go through nothing but derelict piles of bricks.

Bishopsgate Goods Yard is being redeveloped see here:

The Goodsyard London

Welcome to the community information website for the delivery of The Goodsyard. Ballymore and Hammerson are working together to deliver the redevelopment of Bishopsgate Goodsyard, (The Goodsyard), and

www.goodsyardlondon.com

In March 2022, the Mayor of London granted planning permission for the comprehensive redevelopment of The Goodsyard, which will see new homes, retail and leisure, office space and a new park built on the 4.5 hectare site. The masterplan is divided into 11 plots, which will be delivered in stages over the next decade.

which I think is listed, but I think this would be allowed

Which recent precedents justify that assertion?

The trains would probably be several carriages too long for the ELL stations, but I don't see that as a show stopper.

The insuperable problem is that the ELL is limited to 5 cars - I doubt anyone would agree to running full-length trains through the tunnel section as evacuation in an emergency would be a nightmare, and station stops even with selective door opening would certainly be a no-no.

It is a show stopper.

 

[Big Sam]

This would leave Gatwick with no direct service to London's West End, where many of the big tourist hotels are located.

There are many trains going direct between Gatwick Airport and Victoria that aren't the Gatwick Express.

 

[MarkyT]

Surely if there was a need to connect Stanstead with Gatwick it would be better to dust of NSEs proposal and use the GOBLIN?

I recall ancient plans to run a Stansted airport service into Kings Cross or St Pancras from Tottenham, using the formerly vacant tunnel bores on final approach to the terminus in the former case. Was there ever a notion to link the Goblin route into Thameslink at Kentish Town replicating old Midland infrastructure in the vicinity. A new chord there looks plausible and, with similarly reinstated chords around Tottenham could access the West Anglia network, but these might be better used as another northern branch of the local Thameslnk stopping service group, going round the Sutton loop to the south, say, or to Reigate, rather than for expresses between Gatwick and Stansted. I'm all for improvements in public ground transport for airports, but not at great expense purely for airport-to-airport transfer, which is typically a fairly small niche market.

 

[Mgameing123]

TfL want to increase the frequency on the East London Line from 16tph to 20tph, and apparently the demand is in the historic core from Whitechapel to Surrey Quays. It occurred to me that if the Gatwick Express to Victoria was scrapped, and instead 4tph from Gatwick (or Brighton) ran to New Cross Gate, called at every station to Whitechapel, crossed over the GEML and then used a new ramp down to the north side of the GEML to serve the low-numbered platforms at Liverpool Street before reversing to Stansted to replace the Stansted Express, this would give a crucial new link from Liverpool Street to Gatwick, as well as being occasionally useful for journeys like Tottenham Hale to Gatwick or New Cross Gate to Stansted. The new curve would go through the Bishopsgate Goods Yard, which I think is listed, but I think this would be allowed, and would probably be the cheapest useful new rail link possible anywhere in London, if not Britain. The trains would probably be several carriages too long for the ELL stations, but I don't see that as a show stopper.

(Obviously I am aware that the ELL used to connect to the south side of the GEML long before the current bridge over the GEML was constructed.)

That’s the opposite of crucial. It’s useless. Who the heck would use it and will it get enough ridership?

 

[Magdalia]

recall ancient plans to run a Stansted airport service into Kings Cross or St Pancras from Tottenham, using the formerly vacant tunnel bores on final approach to the terminus in the former case.

You are possibly muddling up two different things here?

Pre-grouping the Great Eastern Railway ran Cambridge line trains to/from St Pancras via the Tottenham and Hampstead, using the curves at Tottenham and Kentish Town. This included Royal Trains to/from Sandringham. But I don't recall any proposals to run Stansted Airport trains to/from St Pancras. Stansted Airport expansion came after Thameslink which had already taken the line capacity through Kentish Town. There is no access from Tottenham to Kings Cross via this route.

The proposed use of the eastern tunnel bores at Kings Cross was for the rail link to the proposed airport at Maplin, cancelled in 1974. This proposal had some similarities with the High Speed 1 line to St Pancras.

There are many trains going direct between Gatwick Airport and Victoria that aren't the Gatwick Express.

You are right, but they are very busy with traffic to and from the Sussex coast. Keeping airport traffic to/from London away from these services is something that has been recognised as a good thing for 40 years.

 

[MarkyT]

You are possibly muddling up two different things here?

Pre-grouping the Great Eastern Railway ran Cambridge line trains to/from St Pancras via the Tottenham and Hampstead, using the curves at Tottenham and Kentish Town. This included Royal Trains to/from Sandringham. But I don't recall any proposals to run Stansted Airport trains to/from St Pancras. Stansted Airport expansion came after Thameslink which had already taken the line capacity through Kentish Town. There is no access from Tottenham to Kings Cross via this route.

The proposed use of the eastern tunnel bores at Kings Cross was for the rail link to the proposed airport at Maplin, cancelled in 1974. This proposal had some similarities with the High Speed 1 line to St Pancras.

Thanks. I know there's no way into KX from the east. Where would the Maplin link have joined the approaches to the the terminus. A tunnel following the NLL? Did CTRL dust off the old plans and reroute to St Pancras?

You are right, but they are very busy with traffic to and from the Sussex coast. Keeping airport traffic to/from London away from these services is something that has been recognised as a good thing for 40 years.

Although they can't seem to decide whether it's this sensible means of managing capacity or a mechanism for extracting a premium fare from air travellers who don't know the alternatives.

 

[Mikey C]

Plenty of people from Stansted change at Tottenham Hale anyway for the tube to go to Kings Cross AND elsewhere in London.

 

[MarkyT]

Plenty of people from Stansted change at Tottenham Hale anyway for the tube to go to Kings Cross AND elsewhere in London.

Such would be the connectional benefits of a Clapham Junction stop on Gatwick Express, especially if SWR could conspire to stop more of their long-distance services there.

 

[Bald Rick]

The new curve would go through the Bishopsgate Goods Yard, which I think is listed, but I think this would be allowed, and would probably be the cheapest useful new rail link possible anywhere in London, if not Britain.

As for digging up half of Shoreditch, look at an aerial photo! The new curve would go through nothing but derelict piles of bricks.

Bishopsgate Goods Yard is worth a couple of billion quid. Which means that this would comfortably be the most expensive rail link for it’s size in the country.

I recall ancient plans to run a Stansted airport service into Kings Cross or St Pancras from Tottenham, using the formerly vacant tunnel bores on final approach to the terminus in the former case. Was there ever a notion to link the Goblin route into Thameslink at Kentish Town replicating old Midland infrastructure in the vicinity.

Yes, it was considered, both into St Pancras and later as part of Thamelink expansion proposals in around 1989. It would have meant reinstating the south to east curve between the Moorgate lines and the Gospel Oak line.

 

[Mr. SW]

Crossrail 2 (should it ever come to pass) would sort of fix this for the tiny handful passengers who would actually want do that sort of transfer.

Leave Bishopsgate alone.

 

[DanNCL]

What would be the point? You’d inconvenience the many people who want to go to Victoria or Clapham Junction just to benefit a minority who want Stansted.

Just because Luton has a direct train to Gatwick doesn’t mean every London airport needs one. The direct train to Luton is simply because it’s operationally convenient, not because many people actually make that journey.

If any London Airport had justification for a direct link to Gatwick it would be Heathrow but even that wouldn’t be feasible.