Scarborough to Beaconsfield Super Off-Peak ticket

[JoeH]

Hello everybody.

Yesterday I traveled down from Scarborough to Beaconsfield on a Super Off-Peak single.

My planned itinerary was as follows

11:48 Scarborough
12:38 York (TPE)

12:58 York
14:48 King's Cross (LNER)

15:40 Marylebone
16:03 Beaconsfield (Chiltern)


The LNER leg was delayed by about 15 mins leaving York and got to King's Cross about 25 minutes late, so due to that I narrowly missed my connecting train at Marylebone.

The next train was the 16:19 but Chiltern staff refused to let me board it as they claimed that Super Off-Peak tickets are not valid on departures between 16:00 and 19:00 from Marylebone. They claimed the correct recourse would be for me to return to King's Cross and get my ticket upgraded or to have done it when I first arrived there. I didn't even think of doing that at King's Cross because I still thought I would make my connection.

Eventually to get rid of me the Marylebone ticket office agreed to stamp it as valid but made it clear that they wouldn't do this for me again. I ended up almost missing that next train also as a result and eventually arrived in Beaconsfield about 45 minutes late. The whole situation was highly embarrassing.

I understand that I should be able to claim delay repay from LNER as although their service was only about 25 minutes late it caused me to miss an onward connection and therefore I ended up more than 30 minutes late.

However my query here is regarding Chiltern and the staff at Marylebone. I can see that Chiltern's website here does state that Super Off-Peak tickets are not valid for departures from Marylebone between 16:00 and 19:00 but it does suggest that this applies to journeys to and from London. As I started and finished outside of London it would therefore appear not to apply. I also looked at the relevant ticket restrictions on the National Rail website and can't see anything about this.

Also, while I only needed to depart Marylebone after 4pm due to a delay on the LNER train, Chiltern themselves sell Super Off-Peak tickets where the final leg would ordinarily leave Marylebone in this peak time. For example:



I emailed Chiltern about this, pointing out their website sells Super Off-Peak tickets where the final leg leaves Marylebone after 4pm, and pointing out that their website implies that the restriction only applies when the journey starts or ends in London, but they replied back saying that their Marylebone staff were right.

Who is in the wrong here? Are Chiltern's staff at Marylebone wrong? is their website wrong to sell a super off-peak ticket for a time where their staff won't accept said ticket? or maybe I am just confused and I am wrong?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern staff at Marylebone are wrong, and even if the ticket was so restricted if it was sold with an itinerary it is valid because of contract law. This ticket only has restrictions into London Terminals, not out of it (this is termed the "Network Rule", though it isn't actually a rule as such, just a convention that applies to most restriction codes).

This is getting ridiculous, two of these in a week. Make sure you complain and claim any relevant Delay Repay.

 

[JoeH]

Chiltern staff at Marylebone are wrong, and even if the ticket was so restricted if it was sold with an itinerary it is valid because of contract law. This ticket only has restrictions into London Terminals, not out of it (this is termed the "Network Rule", though it isn't actually a rule as such, just a convention that applies to most restriction codes).

This is getting ridiculous, two of these in a week. Make sure you complain and claim any relevant Delay Repay.

Thanks for your reply.

I will certainly complain and attempt claim delay repay.

Out of interest could you link me to the thread for the similar incident you mentioned from this week? I would like to read that one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest could you link me to the thread for the similar incident you mentioned from this week? I would like to read that one.

Here it is:

Oxford to Cambridge off peak

I’m writing on behalf of a friend to vent her frustration at being denied boarding an evening peak train to Oxford yesterday at Paddington station using the return portion of an Oxford to Cambridge off peak period return ticket with validity code 4j which I understand has no evening peak...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[furlong]

If you want to take this further, you can report Chiltern to the ORR and/or the DfT (e.g. copied to or via your MP) as in breach of the agreement under which the company operates its trains, which says it will accept all valid tickets. In theory the company should be sanctioned for this, but good luck getting either of those bodies to carry out their duties on behalf of passengers like you!

It's known as the Obligation to Carry in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement:

10-1 (1) An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

The DfT has occasionally taken action against train companies that breached the TSA.

With the ORR you can also report it as a breach of the Consumer Regulations, as an action that makes people like you think they need to buy a more expensive ticket when the truth is that they don't. If the ORR was doing its job, it would formally warn Chiltern, such that if it happened again it would be building up evidence to help it to prosecute the company (where it would basically need to prove it was deliberate or inexcusably negligent).

 

[AlterEgo]

Chiltern staff were talking nonsense and being unhelpful and obstructive. The OP had an absolute right to continue using their ticket without getting it “upgraded” at Kings Cross.

There isn’t even an evening restriction on that ticket, as per https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SCA&dest=BCF&ldn=1&tkt=SSS

and

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/1l/. (For single tickets only the outward part is relevant here)

The ticket was valid without question, regardless of disruption.

Worse than useless from the staff, who actively frustrated the customer. Well done to the staff - it would be better if you weren’t even there. At least with nobody to ask you wouldn’t be getting this sort of runaround.

 

[All Line Rover]

Is there a reason why Chiltern's staff at Marylebone and Chiltern's head office are incapable of reading the ticket's restriction code?

 

[furlong]

Is there a reason why Chiltern's staff at Marylebone and Chiltern's head office are incapable of reading the ticket's restriction code?

That is the question that both the ORR and the DfT should be demanding that Chiltern's top management answer.

Does the OP have the time and dedication to pursue this through the official channels? (Realistically, you should expect it to take a couple of years of not giving up to get the right answers.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there a reason why Chiltern's staff at Marylebone and Chiltern's head office are incapable of reading the ticket's restriction code?

Laziness. It took me 20 seconds to look up, although my instinct would tell me that as a longer distance ticket the odds are that there would be no evening restriction out of London.

 

[Craig1122]

We've seen a number of similar threads recently. IMO the "simplification" of fares a few years back has not helped. In reality they weren't simplified, they were simply given fewer names. Previously the restriction in the majority of cases (Although far from all) aligned with the ticket name. With the change to just peak/off peak the misconception seems to be growing that restrictions are purely attached to the time of travel and not to the individual ticket restriction.

For example it was previously common knowledge that within the South East a Saver or Super Saver only carried a restriction on the outward leg from the appropriate London terminal. Now it seems that many staff just see "off peak, not valid".

 

[Hadders]

The staff at Marylebone are completely wrong. Marylebone ticket office used to have a good reputation and the fact that they appear not to know basic ticketing restriction rules is very concerning.

Sadly, I'm not surprised but the incompetence is breathtaking.

 

[JoeH]

Thank you for all the responses.

For LNER’s part they have already told me that they will refund me half the cost of my ticket and it will be added to my bank account in the next few days, so good job LNER.

Chiltern however, still insist that I wasn’t entitled to travel on the ticket. Here’s their latest email, from this morning:

As I stated in my last email, you were not entitled to use your super off peak ticket on any train between 4pm & 7pm leaving London Marylebone, these are our terms of conditions of the Super off Peak. Please see the NCOT link below as stated in section 9 traveling without a valid ticket.

National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf (nationalrail.co.uk)

I totally understand your frustration, but even though you had a valid ticket to begin with, your previous train was delayed this caused the ticket to not be valid on our 16:19 service you were trying to board. This is on section 9 of the NCOT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

May be worth, if you want to make a point, asking for a deadlock letter and taking it to the Ombudsman. It seems that this may not just be one member of ignorant staff, but rather the more serious situation of staff being trained to breach the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

How the mighty Chiltern has fallen.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for all the responses.

For LNER’s part they have already told me that they will refund me half the cost of my ticket and it will be added to my bank account in the next few days, so good job LNER.

Chiltern however, still insist that I wasn’t entitled to travel on the ticket. Here’s their latest email, from this morning:

Hahaha they are so thick. Irredeemably stupid.

Please do escalate this to someone who has a brain cell. You may need to look outside the company.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't see it as ludicrous, as the Advance ticket would not otherwise have any validity for the journey to be completed, unlike a flexible ticket. Obviously good customer service would allow both to continue on the next train.

There is no obligation on LNER to do anything as the ticket is valid for the journey to be continued. This case is 100% Chiltern at fault.

Agreed. Chiltern haven’t even looked up the restriction code. It’s the first thing they should have done.

 

[Haywain]

Chiltern haven’t even looked up the restriction code. It’s the first thing they should have done.

I find it difficult to believe that they would have needed to look it up!

 

[Kite159]

Just another case of some members of staff acting in a silo style thinking that "Super off-peaks are not valid" without checking the actual ticket held. Yes it might be a super off-peak but it's for longer distance not something from London to Chiltern station which normally wouldn't be allowed. I wonder if they will continue digging a large hole for themselves.

Similar to that GWR guard from a thread earlier in the month with that poster travelling to Didcot from Scotland. Or even merseyrail trying to pretend they are not part of national rail when it comes to paying out for hour+ delays.

Most likely you will get some sort of veiled apology without admitting they were wrong and on this occasion as a gesture of goodwill they will offer you a 10% discount code for a ticket purchase via the Chiltern website which doesn't work with railcards.

 

[AlterEgo]

I find it difficult to believe that they would have needed to look it up!

Oh I think it’s always prudent. But instinct would tell you or I that it’s a long distance ticket and it’s probably not priced by Chiltern, and should be valid in the evening.

 

[Haywain]

Oh I think it’s always prudent. But instinct would tell you or I that it’s a long distance ticket and it’s probably not priced by Chiltern, and should be valid in the evening.

It might be prudent but working at a London Terminal that shouldn't be necessary for long distance tickets.

 

[JoeH]

I emailed them again, this time with a link to the restrictions code on the ticket to show it was valid, and asked that they escalate it to their manager, and this is what I got back:

Thank you for your correspondence, as per the link you have provided and the information provided by my colleague. You held a Super Off Peak Ticket. These tickets are restricted within travel times and not for trains departing London Terminals which in line with the information provided by yourself is after 14:59. However as provided by my colleague, our Super Off Peak restrictions do not permit travel for services departing London Marylebone between 16:00 and 19:00 on a weekday.

The information you were provided by both staff at the station and by my colleague was correct.
This is laid out clearly on our website in line with the link previous provided and again provided below.
Super Off-Peak Tickets | Chiltern Railways

Each individual Train Operating Company has varying ticket restrictions and requirements and as London Marylebone is a Terminal Station the information provided within our restrictions times identified are set and do not waiver.

I cannot explain as to why you would have been issued with a Super Off Peak ticket that departs London Marylebone after 16:00, I will be sending this to the retailing manager to address with the provider that retailed the ticket as this is incorrect and thus should not have been issued.

I am again sorry that you have not been happy with the service provided, however the staff employed have provided the correct information in line with our terms and conditions.

They seem to have read the restrictions and got confused by this part, but as i’m sure everyone here realises it doesn’t apply as its a single ticket:

Return Travel​
Not valid for departures from: London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)

 

[AlterEgo]

Time to go to the Ombudsman. You are dealing with an extreme level of incompetence, as well as rudeness by refusing to apologise for you being inconvenienced by fellow incompetents on the gateline.

At this stage it’s almost like a prank. Also whoever wrote that factually wrong and insulting email needs remedial English lessons. Decline!

 

[AdamWW]

Time to go to the Ombudsman. You are dealing with an extreme level of incompetence, as well as rudeness by refusing to apologise for you being inconvenienced by fellow incompetents on the gateline.

At this stage it’s almost like a prank. Also whoever wrote that factually wrong and insulting email needs remedial English lessons. Decline!

The web page they link to itself links to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...et-types/off-peak-and-super-off-peak-tickets/

Which says:

. The details of the trains that you can catch and the times that you can travel will depend on the journey you are making, and will be made available when you buy your ticket. Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets will have a Restriction Code that tells you when it is valid for your journey. You can search for your Restriction Code using our Ticket Validity Finder tool.

Edited to add:

They also seem to have got confused when they say they are going to follow up the fact that the ticket was sold with an invalid itinerary. The original itinerary was valid even according to their misunderstanding of the rules. The OP showed that Chiltern themselves will happily sell tickets on their route with a final leg leaving Marlybone at peak times.

I hope there isn't a risk that this leads to the "loophole" being closed and a restriction added.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

May be worth, if you want to make a point, asking for a deadlock letter and taking it to the Ombudsman. It seems that this may not just be one member of ignorant staff, but rather the more serious situation of staff being trained to breach the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

My understanding is that the Ombudsman is only there to deal with individual circumstances. The fact that Chiltern employs multiple staff who don't know how tickets work is, I think, beyond their remit.

Time to go to the Ombudsman. You are dealing with an extreme level of incompetence, as well as rudeness by refusing to apologise for you being inconvenienced by fellow incompetents on the gateline.

Unfortunately "extreme level of incompetence" also seems like quite a good description of the (Furniture) Ombudsman.

 

[Hadders]

Might be worth getting London Travelwatch involved in this.

 

[Kite159]

Just ask for a deadlock letter as they are clearly digging themselves into a larger hole and won't admit they made a mistake.

Asking for a deadlock letter might make a manager to look into the subject of the complaint rather than poorly trained front-line staff whom probably are within a silo of "super off-peak not valid" without checking.

 

[Adam Williams]

Might be worth getting London Travelwatch involved in this.

+1, it needs more than just the Ombudsman.

Incredibly frustrating to read this thread, though sadly none of it really surprises me anymore. They just will not accept that they are wrong, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Don't know if there's anyone suitably senior at Chiltern that OP could "guess the email of" and also flag it up with?

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't know if there's anyone suitably senior at Chiltern that OP could "guess the email of" and also flag it up with?

You'd hope when the complaint handler approached their retail manager they would be suitably apprised of the real answer, which is that they are wrong and randoms on the internet were right.

 

[Adam Williams]

You'd hope when the complaint handler approached their retail manager they would be suitably apprised of the real answer, which is that they are wrong and randoms on the internet were right.

No, I bet you it'll end up at the retailer's door for "mis-issuing" the ticket (read: following the fares data). Speaking very much from experience from similar cases!

 

[CyrusWuff]

You'd hope when the complaint handler approached their retail manager they would be suitably apprised of the real answer, which is that they are wrong and randoms on the internet were right.

You'd hope the complaint handler spoke to their Pricing Team before responding. The fact that they're reported as backing up the station staff suggests otherwise, however.

 

[AdamWW]

No, I bet you it'll end up at the retailer's door for "mis-issuing" the ticket (read: following the fares data). Speaking very much from experience from similar cases!

Except the original itinerary was valid even if you believe that Chiltern are allowed to invent their own rules that override ticket restrictions.

The problem was that a delay pushed the OP into the peak causing Chiltern to argue that the ticket wasn't valid. Despite the fact that Chiltern themselves will (correctly) sell a ticket that violates their made up rules.

And never mind the fact that trying to make someone pay the industry more money because it couldn't deliver them to a station at the correct time is utterly unreasonable, even if there isn't anything expliciltly in the rules preventing from doing this.

 

[JoeH]

I heard back from a manager at Chiltern this morning and they confirmed what everyone here said which is that the ticket was indeed valid.

They apologised for the inconvenience at Marylebone and that I had been given incorrect information by staff both at Marylebone and at head office.

They said that a brief would be issued to front line staff about varying restriction codes.

I was offered a voucher as a gesture of goodwill, which, while appreciated, was much less important to me than the validity of the ticket being confirmed in writing by a Chiltern manager, as I will be making this journey again and may need it.

I’m not sure if my case got escalated to a manager through my own efforts or due to third party intervention after I posted this thread. In any event I am thankful for all the help from the users here.