Intercity Turnarounds

[MerlinRail 804]

What are the procedures/steps to turnarounds of intercity services at major terminus stations, such as Paddington, Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, etc.?
What are the timescales to these steps and what factors do they depend on (such as no. of coaches or passengers expected)?

 

[jfollows]

What are the procedures/steps to turnarounds of intercity services at major terminus stations, such as Paddington, Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, etc.?
What are the timescales to these steps and what factors do they depend on (such as no. of coaches or passengers expected)?

I think it’s all in https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/information-for-operators/operational-rules/ but you may have to search a bit.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think it’s all in https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/information-for-operators/operational-rules/ but you may have to search a bit.

All the Timetable Planning Rules will give you is a minimum time value for some (not all) routes.

The usual procedures are what you’d expect:
- Detrain customers
- Traincrew secure train (if required)
- Cleaning staff go through emptying bins, general tidying etc
- On board catering is restocked / trolley replaced etc (if required)
- Inbound crew hand over to outbound crew (if face-to-face relief)
- Reservations system set up / paper reservations placed (“carding”)
- Customer boarding commences for outbound departure

Many things depend on the type of rolling stock and length of turnround. In the past HSTs often shut down their leading power car on arrival to minimise noise & fumes; this was mandatory at Euston due to the enclosed platforms (and HSTs could not draw up to the buffers, as they had to stop with the rear power car still in the open air.) Paddington and Kings Cross had shore supply jumpers by the buffer stops which would be connected to the front power car to allow it to be shut down and maintain ETS etc. Obviously if the turnround was short then this wouldn’t be done.

 

[43066]

Paddington and Kings Cross had shore supply jumpers by the buffer stops which would be connected to the front power car to allow it to be shut down and maintain ETS etc. Obviously if the turnround was short then this wouldn’t be done.

Not sure the extent to which shore supplies were used for HSTs in recent years, if at all (there are some fascinating historical photos however).

At my operator ETS would generally be run from the opposite power car to the one being driven from, so that the London end power car could be shut down immediately upon arrival into London, with the train continuing to be supplied by the country end. The next driver would then start the buffer end power car and move the ETS to it before departing north.

 

[nw1]

I have some CWNs from the 80s and there did seem to be an (unwritten?) rule that IC services had to have a greater-than-30-min turnaround, whether HST or conventional loco-hauled. The shortest turnarounds seemed to be around 32 or 33 mins.

I get the impression from some recent threads that some now have shorter turnarounds than this, presumably due to more restricted platform capacity following the introduction of more intensive services in the past 20 years or so.

 

[800001]

I have some CWNs from the 80s and there did seem to be an (unwritten?) rule that IC services had to have a greater-than-30-min turnaround, whether HST or conventional loco-hauled. The shortest turnarounds seemed to be around 32 or 33 mins.

I get the impression from some recent threads that some now have shorter turnarounds than this, presumably due to more restricted platform capacity following the introduction of more intensive services in the past 20 years or so.

At Kings Cross most services from Leeds have 33 minutes before they depart back to Leeds.

 

[mangyiscute]

There are certainly current intercity services at most of the major London termini which have 20 mins turnaround, which works fine when on time but leaves very little resilience to delays

 

[MCR247]

There are (or were) some EMRs booked to turn round at St Pancras in 11 minutes, which from a boarding passenger perspective, was about as fun as you’d expect. Especially with how the EMR platforms at St Pancras are run..

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The shortest ‘intercity’ turnarounds permitted at Paddington are 10 mins (from Oxford), but this is the exception rather than the rule. Usually turnarounds are between 15-35 mins with some longer instances to suit the diagramming arrangements. Paddington is probably one of the more pressing examples of ‘we need more platforms’.

 

[dk1]

Intercity services at Liverpool St were usually around 40mins but in times of disruption they should be out in as little as 8mins.

 

[mangyiscute]

Paddington is probably one of the more pressing examples of ‘we need more platforms’.

Which should've been sorted out by moving basically all of the local services to run into the elizabeth line core, meaning platforms 10-14 can be used by more gwr services - dunno if this has been timetabled in yet but you'd hope it happens soon.
It is a bit awkward getting a train from say platform 11 over to the fast lines however.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Which should've been sorted out by moving basically all of the local services to run into the elizabeth line core, meaning platforms 10-14 can be used by more gwr services - dunno if this has been timetabled in yet but you'd hope it happens soon.
It is a bit awkward getting a train from say platform 11 over to the fast lines however.

That is the problem - the current layout is designed for P10-14 to feed the relief lines. You can get into all platforms from the Up Main at Ladbroke Grove but a departure from 12 or 14 does not have a natural ‘ARS-friendly’ route to the Down Main. You need to go down line 4 and need about 6 mins gap in Up traffic to get across at Portobello Junction, which just isn’t possible much of the time. In the past the solution was to run RL to Acton West (which happened regularly, planned and unplanned) but the Elizabeth line has put paid to that. So in reality, when you also remove platforms 6/7 which are HEX-exclusive platforms, GWR have 9 platforms from which they manage to operate 15 departures in the peak hour, plus arrivals and shunts, with a station throat without any grade separation. It’s quite a feat of planning and more still of operation.

 

[nw1]

The shortest ‘intercity’ turnarounds permitted at Paddington are 10 mins (from Oxford), but this is the exception rather than the rule. Usually turnarounds are between 15-35 mins with some longer instances to suit the diagramming arrangements. Paddington is probably one of the more pressing examples of ‘we need more platforms’.

Bringing this thread back to life as I'm quite curious about this.

What have turnarounds, particularly for Penzance services, been post-privatisation, including in recent years?

In the 80s very few were under around 58 or 59 minutes, there were one or two exceptions including a 36-min turnaround for a morning Penzance arrival which then formed a one-off HST to Stratford-upon-Avon in 1989.

I would expect incoming Penzance services to have at least 45 mins turnaround due to the relatively high chance of delays.

 

[mangyiscute]

Bringing this thread back to life as I'm quite curious about this.

What have turnarounds, particularly for Penzance services, been post-privatisation, including in recent years?

In the 80s very few were under around 58 or 59 minutes, there were one or two exceptions including a 36-min turnaround for a morning Penzance arrival which then formed a one-off HST to Stratford-upon-Avon in 1989.

I would expect incoming Penzance services to have at least 45 mins turnaround due to the relatively high chance of delays.

Having a quick look on RTT tells us that off peak, the intended pattern is the train from Penzance/Plymouth that arrives at around xx:29 forms the next service down to Penzance/Plymouth at xx:03 (look at expected platforms on RTT, or go to today and look at the train allocations: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GW)
Peak it gets a bit more complicated I think, but I would expect roughly 30 min turnarounds as well. The increase in services from the 80s till now means that leaving a train stabled in a platform at Paddington for over an hour is impractical.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The simple reality is that there are not enough platforms at Paddington to enable turnrounds to be longer without reducing the number of services per hour. Even now that the Relief Line timetable goes down the ‘hole’ at Westbourne Park, the fact that 2x platforms are dedicated to HEX and 2x platforms do not have a particularly easy route to the Down Main at Ladbroke Grove, means that GWR services are generally contained within 9 platforms (1-5 & 8-11) so providing the 12tph off-peak departures with distinct stock requirements on certain routes will always require some compromise in turnrounds.

Paddington is particularly challenging to operate due to the lack of grade separation in the throat meaning that most departures cross in front of arriving services. This influences the platforming capacity further as the timetabling arrangements prevent each platform from being used to its complete capacity.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's usual at Manchester Piccadilly for Avanti trains to/from London Euston? ~ 30 minutes? Sometimes a little longer?

 

[jfollows]

What's usual at Manchester Piccadilly for Avanti trains to/from London Euston? ~ 30 minutes? Sometimes a little longer?

30 minutes, two platforms, xx.45 arrival becomes xx.15 departure, other platform is the xx.55 departure already there from 20 minutes earlier. And then repeat every 20 minutes.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

30 minutes, two platforms, xx.45 arrival becomes xx.15 departure, other platform is the xx.55 departure already there from 20 minutes earlier. And then repeat every 20 minutes.

Ta. That explains why there are sometimes two trains for London Euston on adjacent platforms at certain times.

 

[nw1]

Interesting - I guess there might have been a bit more room for manoeuvre in Paddington when short Turbo formations were commonplace, as multiple services could have shared the same platform?

How long is Heathrow Express? Is it conceivable that a Heathrow Express and a local service could share the platform?

 

[mangyiscute]

Interesting - I guess there might have been a bit more room for manoeuvre in Paddington when short Turbo formations were commonplace, as multiple services could have shared the same platform?

How long is Heathrow Express? Is it conceivable that a Heathrow Express and a local service could share the platform?

Since most local services are 8 coaches, I doubt it would work.
There are some trains that arrive as 10 coach, then split at paddington to form 2 different 5 coach services (or vice versa) but these can be very prone to delays while splitting.

 

[FGWHST43009]

All the Timetable Planning Rules will give you is a minimum time value for some (not all) routes.

The usual procedures are what you’d expect:
- Detrain customers
- Traincrew secure train (if required)
- Cleaning staff go through emptying bins, general tidying etc
- On board catering is restocked / trolley replaced etc (if required)
- Inbound crew hand over to outbound crew (if face-to-face relief)
- Reservations system set up / paper reservations placed (“carding”)
- Customer boarding commences for outbound departure

Many things depend on the type of rolling stock and length of turnround. In the past HSTs often shut down their leading power car on arrival to minimise noise & fumes; this was mandatory at Euston due to the enclosed platforms (and HSTs could not draw up to the buffers, as they had to stop with the rear power car still in the open air.) Paddington and Kings Cross had shore supply jumpers by the buffer stops which would be connected to the front power car to allow it to be shut down and maintain ETS etc. Obviously if the turnround was short then this wouldn’t be done.

Turnarounds at Swansea were generally around 50 minutes for HSTs. I remember on the last day of HSTs (18th May) we arrived at Swansea on the morning working from Bristol and 43009 which was at the country end was turned off while 43185 was still running its engine. IETs tend to sit there running all their engines.

 

[jfollows]

Ta. That explains why there are sometimes two trains for London Euston on adjacent platforms at certain times.

Yes, if things are running to schedule then this should be the case 50% of the time, 3x10 minutes every hour.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Since most local services are 8 coaches, I doubt it would work.
There are some trains that arrive as 10 coach, then split at paddington to form 2 different 5 coach services (or vice versa) but these can be very prone to delays while splitting.

There are some complicating factors relating to the signalling system at Paddington - a second train can only enter an occupied platform if one of the two train detection berths are unoccupied. From memory, the inner berth accommodates a 5-car 80x but not an 8-car 387. This has the slightly counterintuitive effect that you can bring an 8-car train in onto a 4-car unit, but not the other way around!