Outlying coach stations for London?

[RT4038]

For NatEx, if they don't serve MK, they will serve generally Finchley Road or Golders Green which forces them down the M1 and then using Finchley Road into London. If none of these places are served en route, in many cases M1 and Finchley Road is the most direct route. Overnight services heading north tend to still have Finchley Road, Golders Green, MK. Some serve Heathrow granted but most are still somewhat forced to use Finchley Road and the M1 corridor in some way. Whether that be because of stops in London or stops nearby.
Megabus & Flixbus has been answered above by JonathanH


Reduce the number of junctions and where there are junctions, try to make it so that conflicting movements are kept to a minimal which then means more flow and more 'green time'. Do what the rest of London is doing and try to deter people from driving by blocking off junctions and forcing them to go through more side roads. Remove car parking and loading bays from bus lanes and better enforcement of red routes since the bus lanes are pretty useless on much of Finchley Road thanks to the parking, deliveries, the 'Ill only be 2 minutes' squad. You go on the A40 or A4, if there is parking, it tends to be off the main traffic lanes in laybys or in side roads, that is how Finchley Road should be. Without a complete rebuilt, it will unlikely ever be perfect, but there are steps that can be taken to improve the situation. TFL/councils seem intent on slowing everyone and everything down though.

Travelling from the M40 or M4 is so much better, you feel like you are getting somewhere rather than Finchley Road, as it's been said, it's an hour from leaving the motorway to getting to the coach station.

Neither the A4 or A40 go through a major shopping/business area, and were changed many years ago. Residents and businesses have no interest in speeding up traffic to roar through their neighbourhood, and TfL/councils would not get such proposals through. Sorry, but residents/businesses cannot be ridden over roughshod anymore. A complete rebuild is a non-starter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's certainly advantages. But the question is - is the extra 2 hours or so for which your vehicle and driver are tied up slowly dragging themselves across central London in both directions economic, or could the coach service be cheaper or more frequent if it just stopped somewhere just off the motorway with good onward links?

(That's basically your Coachway concept as used in e.g. Milton Keynes)

For a journey in/out West then Victoria is not bad. We (passengers) usually reckon on Reading central (M4 junction) being an hour from/to Victoria by coach. We are passing Heathrow on the M4 in 30 minutes.

Even being M1 centric, for many journeys it only takes half an hour to get from Victoria to Hendon Way from where it is fairly quick onto the M1 for much of the day. Earls Court / Knightsbridge can be an issue for heading out to the West, but the previous poster saying it is an extra two hours for the round trip to Victoria is a bit much.

Furthermore how much time is saved if using the tube to North London. Add in the faff with all the luggage and a simple connection at Victoria is preferable for many.

Rather than moving the coach stations, why can't TFL just make it quicker for buses to get into Central London? The roads with the most amount of coaches seem to have the worst infrastructure. Brent Cross - Victoria Coach Station must be dealing with hundreds of coaches each day and yet there seems to be 300 sets of traffic lights, almost no bus lanes. Where there are bus lanes, TFL have put loading bays and car parking in the lanes so the bus lanes aren't really useful at all. Constant redevelopment of the road network seems to be creating more and more congestion and constantly reduce the flow of traffic. Small lane widths which mean buses have to go much slower because they only just fit in the line and turning becomes near impossible without blocking the whole road. The whole way in which TFL treats the road network is wrong. If TFL got their act together, it wouldn't be so slow getting across London and this discussion wouldn't need to happen.

What about all the people and businesses that live along and around the Finchley road ?. Do they still get to use it as well ?.

There aren't that many buses from the North-west or Scotland which go via M4 other than if they stop at Heathrow en route or some limited services which run none stop from Birmingham to London. Many services have stops at either Milton Keynes Coachway or Golders Green though which somewhat forces travel down the M1.


It's about right for some journeys. It's about 40 minutes to get from Victoria to Finchley Road and so 20 minutes to get to Brent Cross, given how bad the roads can be at times, completely plausible. Doing that both ways, could work out as 2 hours extra journey time.

An hour each way is not much bother if it means less effort lugging luggage around. Extra risk of an extra tube journey for many.

This is a well-written and reasoned explanation of the factors surrounding new London coach stations - thank you.

Here's an interesting alternative scenario to explore - what if TfL sold off the site of Vic Coach Station (must be worth hundreds of millions - no?) and moved to some cheaper land in the Shepherds Bush area with better access to high speed roads? No better for Easterly or South Easterly coach routes, but the volume of passengers on the other coach roles would surely outweigh services in those directions.

This is what I fear. Land at Victoria is too valuable and there will not be much provision made for alternative coach terminating points in London. Look at what happened in Cardiff where the bus and coach station next to Cardiff Central Railway station was obliterated in favour of office development.

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Reduce the number of junctions and where there are junctions, try to make it so that conflicting movements are kept to a minimal which then means more flow and more 'green time'. Do what the rest of London is doing and try to deter people from driving by blocking off junctions and forcing them to go through more side roads. Remove car parking and loading bays from bus lanes and better enforcement of red routes since the bus lanes are pretty useless on much of Finchley Road thanks to the parking, deliveries, the 'Ill only be 2 minutes' squad. You go on the A40 or A4, if there is parking, it tends to be off the main traffic lanes in laybys or in side roads, that is how Finchley Road should be. Without a complete rebuilt, it will unlikely ever be perfect, but there are steps that can be taken to improve the situation. TFL/councils seem intent on slowing everyone and everything down though.

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If it is anything like Croydon then the public transport routes (bus) could be got nearer to the town centre and run smoother if the cycle lanes were got rid of. Hardly any use is made of the cycle lanes to the detriment of the vast majority using public transport.

 

[Mikw]

Alight at either Golders Green (outside the tube station) or Finchley Rd (down the main road about 200 yards and through the subway to the tube) its what i always do on these routes. Going north theres a large Starbucks diagonaly accros the roundabout at Golders Green, Finchley Rd Coach stop is outside a Subway. Both are in Zone 3 so if you were going to use the tube from Victoria anyway its an extra 30p off peak on contactless. nearly every service calls at one or the other.

Thanks. I have got off at those stops on some occassions. Most recently one scheduled to stop at Finchley Road didn't stop, so had to wait until Marble Arch.
I think, for the return journey, you've really got to get on at Victoria, don't ever recall them picking up from Finchley or Golders whenever i've made the trip.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is what I fear. Land at Victoria is too valuable and there will not be much provision made for alternative coach terminating points in London. Look at what happened in Cardiff where the bus and coach station next to Cardiff Central Railway station was obliterated in favour of office development.

White City wouldn't be a terrible location.
I don't think it'll go completely, because the volume of intercity coaches is much, much more significant to accommodate elsewhere.

 

[markymark2000]

What about all the people and businesses that live along and around the Finchley road ?. Do they still get to use it as well ?.

Residents and businesses can use the normal traffic lanes.... as normal. Bus lanes should not be flooded with parking and loading bays though. Imagine if we just took up a normal traffic lane on the A4 for parking and loading? People would go bonkers but that is the equivalent of what has happened on Finchley Road. No one should be parking on Finchley Road itself, use side streets, get proper parking off street or something. Taking up a bus lane is not acceptable.

An hour each way is not much bother if it means less effort lugging luggage around. Extra risk of an extra tube journey for many.

It is a long time though. Especially on the shorter distance routes. You spend 2 hours travelling 97 miles from Leicester to Finchley Road (so around 32.3 miles every 40 minutes) but it takes you 40 minutes to travel the last 5 miles into Victoria. It is a bit long. If you're coming from Glasgow though, the time faffing around getting to Victoria is probably neither here nor there but any short-mid distance route, this is a huge time penalty.

Neither the A4 or A40 go through a major shopping/business area, and were changed many years ago. Residents and businesses have no interest in speeding up traffic to roar through their neighbourhood, and TfL/councils would not get such proposals through. Sorry, but residents/businesses cannot be ridden over roughshod anymore.

It's not like I am saying increase the speed limit but make traffic more free flowing with existing 30mph speed limits. Councils can and do throw up cycle lanes everywhere removing bus stops, parking, loading bays, even benches and trees at times, without caring for anyone else but somehow the suggestion of removing parking from bus lanes is unthinkable? Removing the parking and loading bays from the bus lanes would benefit not only buses but also all road users along Finchley Road as other road users are constantly being delayed because they have to let buses cross over into normal traffic lanes. It's a key busy main road and should be kept as clear as possible from unnecessary blockages.

A complete rebuild is a non-starter.

Agreed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Residents and businesses can use the normal traffic lanes.... as normal. Bus lanes should not be flooded with parking and loading bays though. Imagine if we just took up a normal traffic lane on the A4 for parking and loading? People would go bonkers but that is the equivalent of what has happened on Finchley Road. No one should be parking on Finchley Road itself, use side streets, get proper parking off street or something. Taking up a bus lane is not acceptable.


It is a long time though. Especially on the shorter distance routes. You spend 2 hours travelling 97 miles from Leicester to Finchley Road (so around 32.3 miles every 40 minutes) but it takes you 40 minutes to travel the last 5 miles into Victoria. It is a bit long. If you're coming from Glasgow though, the time faffing around getting to Victoria is probably neither here nor there but any short-mid distance route, this is a huge time penalty.


It's not like I am saying increase the speed limit but make traffic more free flowing with existing 30mph speed limits. Councils can and do throw up cycle lanes everywhere removing bus stops, parking, loading bays, even benches and trees at times, without caring for anyone else but somehow the suggestion of removing parking from bus lanes is unthinkable? Removing the parking and loading bays from the bus lanes would benefit not only buses but also all road users along Finchley Road as other road users are constantly being delayed because they have to let buses cross over into normal traffic lanes. It's a key busy main road and should be kept as clear as possible from unnecessary blockages.


Agreed.

These vehicles serving neighbourhoods do not just pass through - they have to stop load and unload. To have to park around the corner might be convenient for the non-stopping traffic BUT it will make deliveries a lot harder - imagine having to wheel your sack barrow back and forth a few hundred yards several times where it used to be ten yards.

A balance has to be found and on many red routes parking is only allowed at off peak times.

We have to remember that roads in towns are not just a through route for vehicles travelling long distance but also are very necessary for more local traffic and that includes a lot of stopping. Otherwise we could argue that a bus should not stop in a bus lane !.

I think the most likely is that the coaches we are concerned with will continue to use Victoria and will make occasional stops in the outskirts of London probably on those very bus routes. Failng that Victoria will fall victim to the money to be made from re-development and nothing special will be built to replace it in the outskirts of London.

 

[birchesgreen]

I always used to use Golders Green when i got the National Express coach down from Birmingham (210 route i think?) Always used to be fun watching the bus station activity while waiting to go back home, especially when the Routemasters were still around.

I'm going to try the FlixBus next month, anyone ever had any issues with the Finchley stop?

 

[Deerfold]

This is a well-written and reasoned explanation of the factors surrounding new London coach stations - thank you.

Here's an interesting alternative scenario to explore - what if TfL sold off the site of Vic Coach Station (must be worth hundreds of millions - no?) and moved to some cheaper land in the Shepherds Bush area with better access to high speed roads? No better for Easterly or South Easterly coach routes, but the volume of passengers on the other coach roles would surely outweigh services in those directions.

TfL don't own the Coach Station. They lease it from Grosvenor Group Limited (owned by the Duke of Westminster and his family).

 

[Titfield]

EasyBus also tried a Hendon Central-Milton Keynes service, without success.

easyBus tried both Hendon Central - Milton Keynes and Hendon Central - Luton Airport. Stelios, the founder of easyBus, prefers to test markets with some experimentation rather than listen to 'perceived wisdom'. The MK route was abandoned for two reasons (a) the lack of balancing traffic flows (b) Hendon Central was perceived by customers to be too far out of town. The Luton Airport route met with greater success but it was also decided that Hendon was that bit too far out. The service was relocated to Baker Street / Gloucester Place which proved to be ideal. Briefly it was extended back to London Victoria but it was felt that the additional running time and some customer relations issues (having to decline walk up traffic at Victoria because there was prebooked traffic at Baker Street) outweighed any benefit of serving London Victoria. A deal was then done with Greenline by which easyBus would switch to a Baker Street <> Stansted service but purchase and resell seats on the GL 757 service to Luton Airport. A service from London Victoria to Gatwick was also launched but this too was relocated to Fulham Broadway for similar reasons to the Stansted (ie additional running time).

One of the biggest problems with stops such as Baker Street is these are pick up / drop off points only. You cant stand on the bus stop. Thus if you are running early you have to choose whether to run early or go around the block to kill time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes was also a failure because the train service is too good and because of competition between Virgin and Silverlink at the time the fares were rather low. Nobody is going to take a journey of over 2 hours at times when they can get there in 30 minutes for an already cheap fare.

National Express have tried it too and failed for similar reasons, and there was up until the mid 2000s a Stagecoach coach service too (which originated from Peterborough I think) which similarly wasn't viable as why would you accept such a slow journey to save not very much?

 

[Citistar]

I think there also needs to be consideration that the central coach station provides interchange facilities in addition to access to the city itself. Continental, Kent or South Coast services need to be accessed from further afield, as the number of through services from the provinces are still very poor (and erratic as FlixBus change their minds on such things regularly). If it were purely a case of travelling to/from London, it wouldn't be a problem for coaches to terminate at whichever decent tube/Liz Line node they reached first.

I don't know if it's still an issue, but NatEx used to charge premium fares for the airports (such as Heathrow from the west country) which would make it more expensive to bail out there and on to local transport than it would be to continue in to VCS.

Finally, Stagecoach Kent ran a service in from Canterbury to North Greenwich for a period pre-covid, but i don't think it ever caught on particularly. Looking at the posts above, it seems to be a recurring theme.

 

[Titfield]

Milton Keynes was also a failure because the train service is too good and because of competition between Virgin and Silverlink at the time the fares were rather low. Nobody is going to take a journey of over 2 hours at times when they can get there in 30 minutes for an already cheap fare.

National Express have tried it too and failed for similar reasons, and there was up until the mid 2000s a Stagecoach coach service too (which originated from Peterborough I think) which similarly wasn't viable as why would you accept such a slow journey to save not very much?

easyBus fares started from £1 one way. The National Express service used Milton Keynes Coachway whereas the easyBus service used a pick up point near the main shopping centre (Midsummer Boulevard IIRC).

 

[paul1609]

Milton Keynes was also a failure because the train service is too good and because of competition between Virgin and Silverlink at the time the fares were rather low. Nobody is going to take a journey of over 2 hours at times when they can get there in 30 minutes for an already cheap fare.

National Express have tried it too and failed for similar reasons, and there was up until the mid 2000s a Stagecoach coach service too (which originated from Peterborough I think) which similarly wasn't viable as why would you accept such a slow journey to save not very much?

It probably doesnt help that as well as the very cheap standard WCML fares there are some shall I say "very good value" fares from south of the Thames. Id never use a coach service to Milton Keynes from Kent in fact I think if Milton Keynes Coachway was rail served I'd most likely be using it as my Outer London coachhead on the M1 routes.

 

[Titfield]

When I worked for National Express back in the 1980s our two core markets were the archetypal little old ladies and students. For the little old lady brigade their preference was always firstly a direct service (by that I mean no change en route required) failing that a change at a supervised interchange where they could be assisted eg London Victoria. The length of the journey was not a major consideration as long as there was a loo break. Coach was often preferred to train as they did not wish to have to navigate crossing London especially with luggage. For students it was the lower coach fares which appealed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When I worked for NExp back in the 1980s our two core markets were the archetypal little old ladies and students. For the little old lady brigade their preference was always firstly a direct service (by that I mean no change en route required) failing that a change at a supervised interchange where they could be assisted eg London Victoria. The length of the journey was not a major consideration as long as there was a loo break. Coach was often preferred to train as they did not wish to have to navigate crossing London especially with luggage. For students it was the lower coach fares which appealed.

Student - that was me 1979-1982 and as far as cheap goes I used to hitchhike about 40% of the time Birmingham to/from Strood (probably mostly Brum to Home when money was tight !). So rail was well beyond my budget.

 

[AlastairFraser]

TfL don't own the Coach Station. They lease it from Grosvenor Group Limited (owned by the Duke of Westminster and his family).

Ah OK. How much do they pay for the lease and when is it up for renewal (if this info is public, of course)?

 

[RT4038]

TfL don't own the Coach Station. They lease it from Grosvenor Group Limited (owned by the Duke of Westminster and his family).

I think it is a little more complicated than this .... TfL own the front part of the Coach Station, including the stands at that end. The rear part of the station, including the higher numbered stands are leased as you say.

 

[route101]

The services that take the most time to cross London in my experience are the Kent and East Anglia services. The Portsmouth service takes a while too as goes via the A3.

 

[renegademaster]

Traffic problems aside Victoria is a proper dingy place. Toilets are a state, very hot in summer, and infested with beggars. Definitely needs a major refurbishment but doubt TfL would ever fund it and its cheaper enough most people don't care