Northern cancellations, Friday 24th May '24

[TUC]

This is just a rant with no basis in reality, as many parts of the railway are very reliable, and you don’t speak for most people. You’ve said you don’t use the railway so, if you aren’t interested in understanding the reasons behind these issues, it’s a little difficult to understand why you are contributing to the discussion!?



Because, as has been pointed out to you many times, nobody is going to pay £100k+ to train people up only to work on a part time basis.

The 100K figure regularly gets quoted. Is there a breakdown or how that figure is arrived at, and is it based upon official rail industry data on the training cost?

 

[Bantamzen]

This is just a rant with no basis in reality, as many parts of the railway are very reliable, and you don’t speak for most people. You’ve said you don’t use the railway so, if you aren’t interested in understanding the reasons behind these issues, it’s a little difficult to understand why you are contributing to the discussion!?

I didn't say I don't use the railway, I said I have reduced my use because of unreliability. And that is definitely a reality as this and countless other threads on delays, cancellations and general unreliability have demonstrated time and again.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 62 is a brand new bus service starting on 30 June...

I'm obliged, sir. Couldn't be used last weekend then?!

 

[Killingworth]

I'm obliged, sir. Couldn't be used last weekend then?!

That bus route may deserve its own thread. Its going to be a challenging operation on the days it's most needed. But a digession today.

One Northern return service was missing yesterday, Bank Holiday Monday "due to an issue with train crew."

 

[43066]

The 100K figure regularly gets quoted. Is there a breakdown or how that figure is arrived at, and is it based upon official rail industry data on the training cost?

I doubt there’s anything publicly available, and it will vary by operator, but based on what people I know who are involved with the training side it’s actually more than that now. It stands to reason, trainees are paid 30k+ at most operators, and spend months in the classroom (millions required to establish a training school) and will take an average of a year or more to become productive. Many full time staff are employed in training school, instructors and others have to be released from rosters (all at many hundreds of pounds per day cost) and a great deal of management time is taken up assessing, conducting progress checks etc. What do you think it costs?

You can quibble over the figures but it’s an extremely expensive process, and it’s part of the reason why it doesn’t make sense for train people up to “fill in the gaps” as you seem to think is possible. Post #85 also gives you plenty of reasons that comprehensively debunk the suggestion.

I didn't say I don't use the railway, I said I have reduced my use because of unreliability. And that is definitely a reality as this and countless other threads on delays, cancellations and general unreliability have demonstrated time and again.

But it’s only certain parts of the railway that are unreliable, and in this case the lack of reliability is being caused by easily solveable reasons, which I agree is frustrating. However just attacking the entire industry as if it’s an amorphous blob that exists in vacuum, and dismissing it as “a running joke since true 80s” is neither accurate nor useful, and something I’d expect to see on Twitter rather than in a thread where we are supposed to be discussing the issues!

 

[ricoblade]

The 62 is a brand new bus service starting on 30 June and will be operating daily.
Timetables shown on High Peak Buses website and no doubt will appear on Derbyshire CC website soon

Thanks - I found the stop and route on Bustimes,org but hadn't noticed it's new (it does say so). I wasn't not imagining things by not seeing a bus in Edale then!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

Minibus replacement to Hope during blockades but road up the valley or over Mam Nick is too narrow for regular service buses. Previous attempts to do so failed.

If I knew I was stranded in Edale for 2 or 3 hours I'd walk via Hollins Coss to Castleton for a bus. Not for everyone that.

Agreed, but if I'd already done a hike, I'd be more tempted to follow the valley floor round to Hope. You can stay off the road apart from a stretch from Nether Booth to Carr House Farm.

 

[Bantamzen]

But it’s only certain parts of the railway that are unreliable, and in this case the lack of reliability is being caused by easily solveable reasons, which I agree is frustrating. However just attacking the entire industry as if it’s an amorphous blob that exists in vacuum, and dismissing it as “a running joke since true 80s” is neither accurate nor useful, and something I’d expect to see on Twitter rather than in a thread where we are supposed to be discussing the issues!

Unfortunately the last report from the ORR doesn't agree with your post.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/jkfh21zr/performance-stats-release-oct-dec-2023.pdf

Aside from a few TOCs, most are showing an increase in cancellations and reductions in punctuality. And overall the industry is showing a trend in worsening performance. This is certainly what I experience on a regular basis, so I may be ranting but there is data to support it. In my part of Northern's network we've seen actual reductions in services & reduced capacity on some remaining services (these are supposed to be resolved at the Dec 2024 timetable but we will wait and see). Then with what is left there are still growing delays and cancellations, and judging by other threads from others we aren't even having the worst of Northern's problems. And this seems to replicate in other parts of the country, different TOCs, same issues, more frustrated and angry passengers, more ranty posts on these forums.

So based on anecdotal evidence, day to day experience, watching franchise after franchise fail, and seeing performance data it is not that difficult to draw the conclusion that something is going serious wrong across the board. And whatever the solutions may be, seeing all sides blaming each other whilst performance worsens does not nurture confidence, which in turn could result in more people looking for alternatives to rail.

 

[Confused52]

Today I took a snapshot of cancellations from journey check for Northern. Having gone through the information on the first 32 of 85 cancellations for today I find that 30 out of 32 are on AN Unit Diagrams . All the AN cancellations checked so far are VSTP cancellations related to 11 Unit Diagrams. At least one starts cancellations part way through the diagram, analysis of a longer period of time would show whether there are more part diagrams affected. The remaining two cancellations are more likely operational TG/YI, but due to driver action cancelling the outbound journey and consequential loss of the return.

Yesterday none and today lots involving Liverpool. Northern refuse to provide FOI Driver and Conductor Diagrams or it would be possible to work out if the staff indeed are all from one depot. Perhaps someone on here has an insight.

There is at least reason to suspect something other than a set of random exercise's of the right to not work overtime on rest days.

PS. The very next entry was interesting in that it was from an NH Unit Diagram. However the only journeys cancelled on it were to/from Warrington CCS/Central. Now in a 2022 Drivers Diagram released by Northern on FOI the only drivers who took trains to Warrington CCS were on LP Driver Diagrams, i.e. Liverpool. Is this the exception that proves the rule?

 

[Starmill]

That's because of a reliance upon agency staff rather than about being part-time.

But that's inherent in your suggestion of cover staff surely? A normal contract driver on half hours, say, can't do cover effectively, they would end up sitting unused at certain times and wouldn't be able to offer enough at others. You're asking for "flexibility" to meet the needs of the business. That's different to just part time hours.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Today I took a snapshot of cancellations from journey check for Northern. Having gone through the information on the first 32 of 85 cancellations for today I find that 30 out of 32 are on AN Unit Diagrams . All the AN cancellations checked so far are VSTP cancellations related to 11 Unit Diagrams. At least one starts cancellations part way through the diagram, analysis of a longer period of time would show whether there are more part diagrams affected. The remaining two cancellations are more likely operational TG/YI, but due to driver action cancelling the outbound journey and consequential loss of the return.

Yesterday none and today lots involving Liverpool. Northern refuse to provide FOI Driver and Conductor Diagrams or it would be possible to work out if the staff indeed are all from one depot. Perhaps someone on here has an insight.

There is at least reason to suspect something other than a set of random exercise's of the right to not work overtime on rest days.

PS. The very next entry was interesting in that it was from an NH Unit Diagram. However the only journeys cancelled on it were to/from Warrington CCS/Central. Now in a 2022 Drivers Diagram released by Northern on FOI the only drivers who took trains to Warrington CCS were on LP Driver Diagrams, i.e. Liverpool. Is this the exception that proves the rule?

I'm a little confused by your PS, so apologies if I've misunderstood. Are you suggesting that because it is a NH unit diagram it couldn't be a Liverpool driver involved in the move that was cancelled? The 'home depot' allocated to unit diagrams really bears little relevance to the crew depots that would work them, certainly in Northern's case.

 

[Confused52]

I'm a little confused by your PS, so apologies if I've misunderstood. Are you suggesting that because it is a NH unit diagram it couldn't be a Liverpool driver involved in the move that was cancelled? The 'home depot' allocated to unit diagrams really bears little relevance to the crew depots that would work them, certainly in Northern's case.

No, the opposite. In the past only LP drivers diagrams had Warrington CCS on them. Similarly there are cancellations to Hadfield and in the only available Driver Diagrams they are only ever driven by MP drivers. So both Piccadilly and Lime Street Drivers appear to be involved. Other destinations are not so clear cut. I have found no indication that it is other than the North West area though. Helsby on NH Unit diagrams were present but there are indications that these are LP drivers.

The North West is hit again tomorrow.

 

[43066]

Unfortunately the last report from the ORR doesn't agree with your post.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/jkfh21zr/performance-stats-release-oct-dec-2023.pdf

Aside from a few TOCs, most are showing an increase in cancellations and reductions in punctuality. And overall the industry is showing a trend in worsening performance. This is certainly what I experience on a regular basis, so I may be ranting but there is data to support it. In my part of Northern's network we've seen actual reductions in services & reduced capacity on some remaining services (these are supposed to be resolved at the Dec 2024 timetable but we will wait and see). Then with what is left there are still growing delays and cancellations, and judging by other threads from others we aren't even having the worst of Northern's problems. And this seems to replicate in other parts of the country, different TOCs, same issues, more frustrated and angry passengers, more ranty posts on these forums.

So based on anecdotal evidence, day to day experience, watching franchise after franchise fail, and seeing performance data it is not that difficult to draw the conclusion that something is going serious wrong across the board. And whatever the solutions may be, seeing all sides blaming each other whilst performance worsens does not nurture confidence, which in turn could result in more people looking for alternatives to rail.

That data compares performance measures from the last quarter period compared to the same period last year. It shows a very small (less than 2% on the three headline measures) overall decrease in performance year on year. That tells us very little when we’ve just had the wettest winter on record, higher passenger loading than last year despite the lack of capacity, the continuing dispute etc.

That snapshot certainly doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said, and neither does it support your previous suggestion that the railway as a whole is unreliable or “a running joke since the 1980s”. That is a demonstrably nonsensical statement when parts of it are running very well - GA, London Overground etc. and even during the last period, over 80% of services arrived within five minutes of booked.

So based on anecdotal evidence, day to day experience, watching franchise after franchise fail, and seeing performance data it is not that difficult to draw the conclusion that something is going serious wrong across the board.

It’s been explained time and again what the common denominator in most of the railway’s current issues are, and that should no longer be the case after 4 July, so that should yield an improvement. The Northern cancellations being discussed in this thread are no exception.

which in turn could result in more people looking for alternatives to rail.

I’d like to know what evidence you base that suggestion on when industry wide we are currently undergoing double digit growth in passenger numbers. As noted above, if you don’t like the railway, you are welcome to use National Express etc. to avoid it, as you suggested you would previously, but there’s no evidence other railway users are doing so. Complaining on here won’t change anything!

 

[TUC]

I doubt there’s anything publicly available, and it will vary by operator, but based on what people I know who are involved with the training side it’s actually more than that now. It stands to reason, trainees are paid 30k+ at most operators, and spend months in the classroom (millions required to establish a training school) and will take an average of a year or more to become productive. Many full time staff are employed in training school, instructors and others have to be released from rosters (all at many hundreds of pounds per day cost) and a great deal of management time is taken up assessing, conducting progress checks etc. What do you think it costs?

But that's inherent in your suggestion of cover staff surely? A normal contract driver on half hours, say, can't do cover effectively, they would end up sitting unused at certain times and wouldn't be able to offer enough at others. You're asking for "flexibility" to meet the needs of the business. That's different to just part time hours.

I'm talking about people who, because of their family or other commitments, their availability varies week to week, but equally are happy to be flexible in their availability when they are free, and take shifts at short notice. They wouldn't be sat around doing nothing because they wouldn't be called in then.

Annualised hours contracts are very different to part time hours. You are committed to a certain number of hours per year, but that might be evenly spread or might be concentrated over particular months when there are wider staff shortages.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm talking about people who, because of their family or other commitments, their availability varies week to week, but equally are happy to be flexible in their availability when they are free, and take shifts at short notice. They wouldn't be sat around doing nothing because they wouldn't be called in then.

Annualised hours contracts are very different to part time hours. You are committed to a certain number of hours per year, but that might be evenly spread or might be concentrated over particular months when there are wider staff shortages.

Surely such flexibility with no guarantee of work would command a premium salary?

What happens if there's not enough uncovered work to cover the annual hours? And how do you manage competency when there's no planned work (unless you reduce productivity by allocating more review days or learning fewer routes)

 

[Bantamzen]

That data compares performance measures from the last quarter period compared to the same period last year. It shows a very small (less than 2% on the three headline measures) overall decrease in performance year on year. That tells us very little when we’ve just had the wettest winter on record, higher passenger loading than last year despite the lack of capacity, the continuing dispute etc.

Actually the period in question wasn't the wettest:

Met Office: A review of the UK’s climate in 2023 - Carbon Brief

The Met Office reviews the UK’s climate in 2023, the events that shaped the year, and how human-caused climate change influenced them.

www.carbonbrief.org

The year of 2023 was relatively wet with 1,290mm of rainfall, equivalent to 111% of UK average rainfall and putting it just outside the top 10 as the 11th wettest year in a series going back to 1836.

It was the sixth wettest March and July, seventh wettest October and ninth wettest December.

So whilst weather may account for some of the disruption, it is not exactly unusual for weather related disruption in the fourth quarter in the UK.

Trade union disputes do skew figures of course, but these are within the scope of the interested parties that run and work the railways to manage, so any effect they have on performance is the responsibility of the industry (including those in government handling railway related matters).

That snapshot certainly doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said, and neither does it support your previous suggestion that the railway as a whole is unreliable or “a running joke since the 1980s”. That is a demonstrably nonsensical statement when parts of it are running very well - GA, London Overground etc. and even during the last period, over 80% of services arrived within five minutes of booked.

So overall mediocre at best performance should be celebrated, because in a few parts it's working? I'm sure that's sweet consolation for punters across the rest of the country staring at information boards telling them they've another hour to wait for their train (which incidentally, and rather ironically might have been me if I had not the foresight to check how my planned service was running this morning).

Despite vast amounts of private investment, lots of redesigning, rebranding etc, the same reality pops up time and again. Train services become unreliable and more expensive, passengers get angry, franchises fail, and comedians make legitimate jokes of it all.

It’s been explained time and again what the common denominator in most of the railway’s current issues are, and that should no longer be the case after 4 July, so that should yield an improvement. The Northern cancellations being discussed in this thread are no exception.

We will see. But from where I stand, any incoming Labour government isn't just going to wave a magic wand and make it all better. The fact that the cost to public funds increases as revenue doesn't fully recover from franchise collapses and the periods of lockdown, means they probably have some hard decisions to make. And you may not like them.

I suspect what will actually happen is that they will look to settle to date (ie 2022-2024), before a new round of disputes start following future negotiations and the problems continue.

I’d like to know what evidence you base that suggestion on when industry wide we are currently undergoing double digit growth in passenger numbers. As noted above, if you don’t like the railway, you are welcome to use National Express etc. to avoid it, as you suggested you would previously, but there’s no evidence other railway users are doing so. Complaining on here won’t change anything!

Double digit growth on the previous period. However passenger numbers still haven't recovered to 2019 levels:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/v1ilmjut/passenger-rail-usage-oct-dec-2023.pdf

As I've said before, it isn't that I don't like the railways, under normal circumstances I actually prefer them especially for long journeys. But as I explained to you, growing unreliability means I am having to consider and take alternative options. Yes complaining here makes no difference in the great scheme of things, but let's flip this around and ask why I shouldn't complain? Would you accept worsening performance from other services you use, especially when prices rise regardless?

 

[mandub]

No, the opposite. In the past only LP drivers diagrams had Warrington CCS on them. Similarly there are cancellations to Hadfield and in the only available Driver Diagrams they are only ever driven by MP drivers. So both Piccadilly and Lime Street Drivers appear to be involved. Other destinations are not so clear cut. I have found no indication that it is other than the North West area though. Helsby on NH Unit diagrams were present but there are indications that these are LP drivers.

The North West is hit again tomorrow.

Picc drivers do a couple of Oxford Road to Warrington sidings in the mornings and evenings. But all else is Liverpool drivers, and Liverpool do all Lime St to Warrington turn backs.
Only Picc drivers do Hadield and every driver and guard passes out signing it, so any cancellations are Northerns choice re allocating staff to other services, it's not a lack of staff who sign the route

 

[Bow Fell]

Today I took a snapshot of cancellations from journey check for Northern. Having gone through the information on the first 32 of 85 cancellations for today I find that 30 out of 32 are on AN Unit Diagrams . All the AN cancellations checked so far are VSTP cancellations related to 11 Unit Diagrams. At least one starts cancellations part way through the diagram, analysis of a longer period of time would show whether there are more part diagrams affected. The remaining two cancellations are more likely operational TG/YI, but due to driver action cancelling the outbound journey and consequential loss of the return.

Yesterday none and today lots involving Liverpool. Northern refuse to provide FOI Driver and Conductor Diagrams or it would be possible to work out if the staff indeed are all from one depot. Perhaps someone on here has an insight.

There is at least reason to suspect something other than a set of random exercise's of the right to not work overtime on rest days.

PS. The very next entry was interesting in that it was from an NH Unit Diagram. However the only journeys cancelled on it were to/from Warrington CCS/Central. Now in a 2022 Drivers Diagram released by Northern on FOI the only drivers who took trains to Warrington CCS were on LP Driver Diagrams, i.e. Liverpool. Is this the exception that proves the rule?

Rightly so, current crew diagrams or historical ones that bear resemblance to the current set of dockets should not be provided. I think we are starting to ask too much. What next? A list of who is off sick, what traincrew are what level TDP?! Where does it end.

If you are using unit diagrams / traincrew diagrams to infer what jobs are uncovered, you will come unstuck it’s much more complicated than that and only by the miracle of Depot Shift Managers and Control piecing jobs together to run a service.

All Lime St-Warrington Central services are worked by Lime Street with the exception of Saturdays, Piccadilly work a few in the evening. But that doesn’t mean it’s all Lime St jobs uncovered if these services are cancelled, they might be cancelled to utilise crew elsewhere. The Helsby-Ellesmere Port while far from ideal is good example by cancelling this you could cover a Wigan service instead which is far far better use of resources.

 

[Starmill]

I'm talking about people who, because of their family or other commitments, their availability varies week to week, but equally are happy to be flexible in their availability when they are free, and take shifts at short notice. They wouldn't be sat around doing nothing because they wouldn't be called in then.

Annualised hours contracts are very different to part time hours. You are committed to a certain number of hours per year, but that might be evenly spread or might be concentrated over particular months when there are wider staff shortages.

Who'd do a job that's the same as the usual full time role, at the same hourly rate, but without a guarantee of work? Your plans by definition would amount to having to pay a higher rate, otherwise nobody would want the job. Which as I've already said is exactly what happens for bank / locum shifts by doctors and nurses of medicine.

 

[yorksrob]

Actually the period in question wasn't the wettest:

Met Office: A review of the UK’s climate in 2023 - Carbon Brief

The Met Office reviews the UK’s climate in 2023, the events that shaped the year, and how human-caused climate change influenced them.

www.carbonbrief.org

So whilst weather may account for some of the disruption, it is not exactly unusual for weather related disruption in the fourth quarter in the UK.

Trade union disputes do skew figures of course, but these are within the scope of the interested parties that run and work the railways to manage, so any effect they have on performance is the responsibility of the industry (including those in government handling railway related matters).

So overall mediocre at best performance should be celebrated, because in a few parts it's working? I'm sure that's sweet consolation for punters across the rest of the country staring at information boards telling them they've another hour to wait for their train (which incidentally, and rather ironically might have been me if I had not the foresight to check how my planned service was running this morning).

Despite vast amounts of private investment, lots of redesigning, rebranding etc, the same reality pops up time and again. Train services become unreliable and more expensive, passengers get angry, franchises fail, and comedians make legitimate jokes of it all.


We will see. But from where I stand, any incoming Labour government isn't just going to wave a magic wand and make it all better. The fact that the cost to public funds increases as revenue doesn't fully recover from franchise collapses and the periods of lockdown, means they probably have some hard decisions to make. And you may not like them.

I suspect what will actually happen is that they will look to settle to date (ie 2022-2024), before a new round of disputes start following future negotiations and the problems continue.


Double digit growth on the previous period. However passenger numbers still haven't recovered to 2019 levels:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/v1ilmjut/passenger-rail-usage-oct-dec-2023.pdf

As I've said before, it isn't that I don't like the railways, under normal circumstances I actually prefer them especially for long journeys. But as I explained to you, growing unreliability means I am having to consider and take alternative options. Yes complaining here makes no difference in the great scheme of things, but let's flip this around and ask why I shouldn't complain? Would you accept worsening performance from other services you use, especially when prices rise regardless?

"Unpopular decisions" (in my experience, code for "bad policy") will likely be just as off-putting to passengers and damaging to the passenger railway as chronic unreliability.

 

[Bantamzen]

"Unpopular decisions" (in my experience, code for "bad policy") will likely be just as off-putting to passengers and damaging to the passenger railway as chronic unreliability.

Very possibly, but I expect they will have an direct impact on pay and/or terms & conditions for staff too. I get the impression that Labour are going to need cost savings across the board, including in my sector.

 

[Confused52]

Rightly so, current crew diagrams or historical ones that bear resemblance to the current set of dockets should not be provided. I think we are starting to ask too much. What next? A list of who is off sick, what traincrew are what level TDP?! Where does it end.

If you are using unit diagrams / traincrew diagrams to infer what jobs are uncovered, you will come unstuck it’s much more complicated than that and only by the miracle of Depot Shift Managers and Control piecing jobs together to run a service.

All Lime St-Warrington Central services are worked by Lime Street with the exception of Saturdays, Piccadilly work a few in the evening. But that doesn’t mean it’s all Lime St jobs uncovered if these services are cancelled, they might be cancelled to utilise crew elsewhere. The Helsby-Ellesmere Port while far from ideal is good example by cancelling this you could cover a Wigan service instead which is far far better use of resources.

It was suggested by someone else that control were cancelling whole unit diagrams so I started testing that hypothesis. It isn't true as I could see part diagrams were cancelled. So I tried to work out if there was any pattern. Success was limited.

I am well aware of the limitations you cite and had much lower expectations, but as usual even my lowest expectations were not met. It still looks like a concerted campaign to annoy passengers in the North West, it has no effect of management but makes life difficult for those shift managers and control who can't do much about the problems described by most contributors. I would imaging they have been run ragged over the last period and wouldn't blame them for getting more than a little fed up.

 

[Bow Fell]

I think it was me who suggested about the unit diagrams?! You’re right they aren’t cancelled in full but the reason for cancelling the unit diagram vs the traincrew diagram is a consequence of the May 2018 farce.

I’ll take a common “cancellation” a Blackpool - Liverpool unit diagram that could have as many as 6 depots involved as part of that diagram.

A Blackpool driver will work it Blackpool-Liverpool-Blackpool-Preston to be relieved by a Wigan driver who works it Preston-Liverpool-Wigan to be relieved by a Buxton driver at Wigan. If for example the Wigan driver is uncovered you have a unit blocking a platform at Preston, or no Buxton driver at Wigan again unit blocking a platform. This was a major criticism from Network Rail from the aftermath from May 2018 units just abandoned in platforms blocking the mainline.

That is why the unit diagram is looked at in places to utilise the resources elsewhere and to stop the above happening.

 

[Llandudno]

That data compares performance measures from the last quarter period compared to the same period last year. It shows a very small (less than 2% on the three headline measures) overall decrease in performance year on year. That tells us very little when we’ve just had the wettest winter on record, higher passenger loading than last year despite the lack of capacity, the continuing dispute etc.

That snapshot certainly doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said, and neither does it support your previous suggestion that the railway as a whole is unreliable or “a running joke since the 1980s”. That is a demonstrably nonsensical statement when parts of it are running very well - GA, London Overground etc. and even during the last period, over 80% of services arrived within five minutes of booked.



It’s been explained time and again what the common denominator in most of the railway’s current issues are, and that should no longer be the case after 4 July, so that should yield an improvement. The Northern cancellations being discussed in this thread are no exception.



I’d like to know what evidence you base that suggestion on when industry wide we are currently undergoing double digit growth in passenger numbers. As noted above, if you don’t like the railway, you are welcome to use National Express etc. to avoid it, as you suggested you would previously, but there’s no evidence other railway users are doing so. Complaining on here won’t change anything!

Imagine what the % growth would be if there were no strikes, overtime bans, TransPennine Upgrade engineering works or ‘short notice changes to the timetable’….

 

[TUC]

Surely such flexibility with no guarantee of work would command a premium salary?

What happens if there's not enough uncovered work to cover the annual hours? And how do you manage competency when there's no planned work (unless you reduce productivity by allocating more review days or learning fewer routes)

From the level of cancellations when existing staff don't choose to work additional shifts, there would seem to be more than enough work to cover.

There's no reason why such a model would need to offer a premium salary. The point is that if gives an option for those whose lives don't fit a fixed shift system, and so is attractive on that basis.

 

[43066]

Let's unscample soke of that. £30+

Ultimately I’m confident that figures of the order suggested aren’t wildly off the mark.

I'm talking about people who, because of their family or other commitments, their availability varies week to week, but equally are happy to be flexible in their availability when they are free, and take shifts at short notice. They wouldn't be sat around doing nothing because they wouldn't be called in then.

For one thing it makes no sense to spend scarce training resource on staff (a year to train on a full time basis) who will be there for a few hours per month, when that person is taking a training school place from a full time driver who would be far more productive working their full time hours.

Rostering safety critical staff needs to be planned in advance, is subject to fatigue measures and various other factors and (depending on staff levels) includes build in spare coverage. You seem to be suggesting the railway trains up drivers who only ever sit spare for a few hours per month (when - you’d need to know they were free in advance), and who somehow drop in as needed. You’d need to keep them competent over the routes they signed, and manage their ongoing competence/assessment needs which would be virtually impossible. There is a reason why with existing part time rosters people will occupy a line in the roster which covers their required routes they need to maintain competence over.

The far simpler, and cost effective approach is to run with just below the complement of drivers, and utilise volunteers to do overtime - which brings us back to why that isn’t happening at Northern at the moment.

In any case there is no suggestion of this approach being adopted, so I don’t really see the relevance to this thread; isn’t it more of a speculative discussion?!

Actually the period in question wasn't the wettest:

Okay then, it was one of the wettest. You are splitting hairs. The figures show a tiny decrease in performance, nothing to start harrumphing about.

Trade union disputes do skew figures of course, but these are within the scope of the interested parties that run and work the railways to manage, so any effect they have on performance is the responsibility of the industry (including those in government handling railway related matters).

I’m not going to be drawn into that discussion, but the bits of the railway not controlled by the government are not in dispute.

Double digit growth on the previous period. However passenger numbers still haven't recovered to 2019 levels:

But they soon will. You (and others) have spent the last few years suggesting people will abandon rail travel. That is simply not supported by the figures.

But as I explained to you, growing unreliability means I am having to consider and take alternative options. Yes complaining here makes no difference in the great scheme of things, but let's flip this around and ask why I shouldn't complain? Would you accept worsening performance from other services you use, especially when prices rise regardless?

Rather than ranting I’d engage constructively with the discussion, ask why the issues are occurring and listen to the explanations. Ultimately you are free not to use it!

 

[td97]

That is why the unit diagram is looked at in places to utilise the resources elsewhere and to stop the above happening.

Presumably works out less efficient, but if 3 of 4 crews for a cancelled unit diagram are available for work then they can be deployed as contingency to ensure running of a different unit diagram?
Some of the 'short notice change to the timetable' cancellations do become uncancelled, for example 1Y51 here.

 

[dk1]

Imagine what the % growth would be if there were no strikes, overtime bans, TransPennine Upgrade engineering works or ‘short notice changes to the timetable’….

Bar the industrial action it would be similar to what we see here in Greater Anglia land. No less than five relief trains run out of Norwich late last night after the Take That gig at Carrow Road (one operated by EMR) and even a relief to the relief such was the volume of passengers travelling.

 

[TUC]

It does seem to me that some here are arguing on the one hand that rest day working is voluntary (which is fair enough), but on the other hand are objecting to any alternative model that could reduce the rail industry's reliance on rest day working and thus opportunities for staff to earn extra income. That does sound like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

 

[43066]

It does seem to me that some here are arguing on the one hand that rest day working is voluntary (which is fair enough), but on the other hand are objecting to any alternative model that could reduce the rail industry's reliance on rest day working and thus opportunities for staff to earn extra income. That does sound like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

You’ve been given clear and detailed reasons by various posters why your suggested model simply isn’t suitable for the railway industry. It wouldn’t be cost effective for the employers, and it wouldn’t be accepted by the unions.

It’s a non starter; so what is the point in continuing to discuss it?

 

[TUC]

You’ve been given clear and detailed reasons by various posters why your suggested model simply isn’t suitable for the railway industry. It wouldn’t be cost effective for the employers, and it wouldn’t be accepted by the unions.

It’s a non starter; so what is the point in continuing to discuss it?

I think some of the responses are adopting a 'can't be done' attitude without properly exploring it, but that's not my point above. My point is that there's no inherent reason why the existing model is the only possible one. If not the one I suggested, look at others.

What is hypocritical is for rail staff to on the one hand say (correctly) that rest days are voluntary, but on the other hand object to any response that says 'OK, we agree with you. Let's look at different models so we won't need to ask you to take on additional shifts anymore'.