Severn tunnel planned closure - no proper bus replacement service?

[AdamWW]

Apologies if this has already been covered - I couldn't see anything.

For the Severn Tunnel closure in July, GWR are saying: (https://www.gwr.com/travel-information/travel-updates/planned-engineering)

Unlike previous closures of the Severn Tunnel a very limited replacement bus service will be provided, so those travelling between Bristol and South Wales should travel by train via Gloucester instead – for more information visit our Bristol webpage.

This doesn't sound like a great situation to me - I'd be interesting in the views of those who know more than me how well this is likely to work.

I note that they don't give an explanation for the change in provision.

 

[The Planner]

Apologies if this has already been covered - I couldn't see anything.

For the Severn Tunnel closure in July, GWR are saying: (https://www.gwr.com/travel-information/travel-updates/planned-engineering)


This doesn't sound like a great situation to me - I'd be interesting in the views of those who know more than me how well this is likely to work.

I note that they don't give an explanation for the change in provision.

Probably a lack of replacement buses, and also the fact the journey can still be made by train even if its longer. Its often a complaint that TOCs rely on replacement buses too much.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably a lack of replacement buses, and also the fact the journey can still be made by train even if its longer. Its often a complaint that TOCs rely on replacement buses too much.

Hmm.

I understand complaints about running replacement buses when trains could have been diverted.

But I don't think that's what's happening here. The South Wales-London trains will be diverted around the tunnel as they have in the past. The difference is that someone travelling between Cardiff and Bristol is expected to take a rather indirect route by rail using existing services to/from Gloucester. Judging by how intensive the bus operation has been when I've used it during tunnel closures, I'm not sure how well everyone is going to fit.

 

[Snow1964]

Services from Portsmouth (and some other services from South West, eg Plymouth-Cardiff) will be diverted to Bristol Parkway.

What is not clear (as it's not yet on public info) is how the train service from Parkway to Gloucester will take the strain, there are some XC trains (although often just a 4 or 5car voyager), and a 3car 165 from Weymouth, plus some stopping services which can be as short as 2car

Normally Gloucester - Newport-Cardiff sees 3car XC 170s and 2car TfW 197, unclear if these will be the obvious connections, or if the diverted London -Cardiff/Swansea trains will be timed to connect better.

I guess get a nice scenic run through Gloucester and Monmouthshire for no extra cost, but lot slower than bus across the bridge

 

[robert thomas]

Services from Portsmouth (and some other services from South West, eg Plymouth-Cardiff) will be diverted to Bristol Parkway.

What is not clear (as it's not yet on public info) is how the train service from Parkway to Gloucester will take the strain, there are some XC trains (although often just a 4 or 5car voyager), and a 3car 165 from Weymouth, plus some stopping services which can be as short as 2car

Normally Gloucester - Newport-Cardiff sees 3car XC 170s and 2car TfW 197, unclear if these will be the obvious connections, or if the diverted London -Cardiff/Swansea trains will be timed to connect better.

I guess get a nice scenic run through Gloucesten severely delayed by an accident er and Monmouthshire for no extra cost, but lot slower than bus across the bridge

Each time I've been on the replacement bus it has been severely delayed on the motorway by an accident or congestion so I would welcome a trip via Gloucester on the train.It is what they used to do years ago.

 

[Starmill]

Each time I've been on the replacement bus it has been severely delayed on the motorway by an accident or congestion so I would welcome a trip via Gloucester on the train.It is what they used to do years ago.

You've been perfectly entitled to go via Gloucester with your usual ticket if you want to during the last blocks involving the tunnel as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Its often a complaint that TOCs rely on replacement buses too much.

I hear that common complaint that they don't want to pay the going rates for bus replacement services, and I hear the common complaint that trains could run on diversion and don't. However I personally find there are endless examples of the former and only occasional examples of the latter (a diversion that could be done that isn't being done). I don't think I've ever come across the complaint you describe.

 

[Cross City]

What is not clear (as it's not yet on public info) is how the train service from Parkway to Gloucester will take the strain

I imagine some Paddington-Wales trains will reverse at BPW and make an extra stop at GCR. The rest diverting via Stroud and avoiding Bristol altogether.

 

[peteb]

What's the capacity of the Severn Tunnel Junction to Gloucester and Gloucester to Bristol Parkway routes? Can't they just divert Cardiff to Bristol services via Gloucester? There's no need to reverse then and journey times wouldn't be too bad if it was a through train. Would also avoid the potential overcrowding of XC services.

 

[Class 170101]

I imagine some Paddington-Wales trains will reverse at BPW and make an extra stop at GCR. The rest diverting via Stroud and avoiding Bristol altogether.

Doesn't look like it, Bristol Parkway appears to be served morning and evening peak only for London and no Wales trains

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Parkway between 0200 and 0159 on 03/07/2024

Train information at Bristol Parkway between 0200 and 0159 on 03/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[father_jack]

Doesn't look like it, Bristol Parkway appears to be served morning and evening peak only for London and no Wales trains

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Parkway between 0200 and 0159 on 03/07/2024

Train information at Bristol Parkway between 0200 and 0159 on 03/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That is correct as per the plan.

If you want to feel pain, look at how little Severn Tunnel Junction commuters are getting..... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-0259?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[Starmill]

What's the capacity of the Severn Tunnel Junction to Gloucester and Gloucester to Bristol Parkway routes? Can't they just divert Cardiff to Bristol services via Gloucester? There's no need to reverse then and journey times wouldn't be too bad if it was a through train. Would also avoid the potential overcrowding of XC services.

Sounds like a nightmare at Gloucester Yard Jn and all of the level crossings to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

I imagine some Paddington-Wales trains will reverse at BPW and make an extra stop at GCR. The rest diverting via Stroud and avoiding Bristol altogether.

As others have said there's no direct service between Cardiff Central or Newport and Bristol stations at all. The T7 also does not go to the railway station at the Chepstow end, and in any case only runs twelve services per day.

 

[wnr1990]

It's a shame TOCs don't have an obligation to operate sufficient bus replacement services in events like this

 

[Sly Old Fox]

What's the capacity of the Severn Tunnel Junction to Gloucester and Gloucester to Bristol Parkway routes? Can't they just divert Cardiff to Bristol services via Gloucester? There's no need to reverse then and journey times wouldn't be too bad if it was a through train. Would also avoid the potential overcrowding of XC services.

Most drivers of those services don’t sign via Lydney.

 

[Snow1964]

Most drivers of those services don’t sign via Lydney.

The diverted London to South Wales IETs will cover route through Lydney.

Most of the concern is how will the Bristol - Gloucester section take up the slack, it is just 2 or 3 car DMUs, or some 4car voyagers. Effectively will be adding all the passengers between Bristol, SW and Solent to/from Wales to these. That's assuming they can connect without long waits in Gloucester

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's a shame TOCs don't have an obligation to operate sufficient bus replacement services in events like this

If there aren't enough buses, there aren't enough buses. Remember they all have to be wheelchair accessible now, so this makes it harder.

 

[RJ]

There will be a service, I’ve got buses out on it.

I frequently travel between Cardiff and London, the extra hour going via Gloucester makes it less viable for a day trip but sooner that than use of buses

 

[AdamWW]

I'm just going by what GWR said:
"Unlike previous closures of the Severn Tunnel a very limited replacement bus service will be provided, so those travelling between Bristol and South Wales should travel by train via Gloucester instead"

 

[Snow1964]

There will be a service, I’ve got buses out on it.

I frequently travel between Cardiff and London, the extra hour going via Gloucester makes it less viable for a day trip but sooner that than use of buses

I'm just going by what GWR said:
"Unlike previous closures of the Severn Tunnel a very limited replacement bus service will be provided, so those travelling between Bristol and South Wales should travel by train via Gloucester instead"

The Cardiff-Plymouth and Cardiff-Portsmouth services alternate at loosely half hour intervals, there is mix of train types, but about 550-650 seats per hour, each way

I think the buses will be nowhere near 600 seats per hour, each way, more a token service.

 

[AdamWW]

I frequently travel between Cardiff and London, the extra hour going via Gloucester makes it less viable for a day trip but sooner that than use of buses

But going between Cardiff and Bristol, buses make sense.

 

[Benjwri]

But going between Cardiff and Bristol, buses make sense.

It's fairly clear that no one here actually took the buses last time. As far as I am aware, certainly when I travelled last at least, the buses have only ever been run from Bristol Parkway to Newport, extending to Cardiff on two of the days. I had to use them and to be quite frank it was a nightmare. I had to take a train to Bristol Parkway, then change and queue for a predictably late bus, which then took a painful amount of time getting stuck in traffic out of Bristol and then into Newport, and then change another train at Newport, having missed my original train thanks to the bus.

The ordeal was timetabled to take just under 2 hours, ended up taking more like 3. The two hours quoted by journey planners for Bristol to Cardiff, at a frequency of 2 or 3 trains per hour, and with a single change at Gloucester, sounds like a pretty good option to me.

 

[AdamWW]

It's fairly clear that no one here actually took the buses last time. As far as I am aware, certainly when I travelled last at least, the buses have only ever been run from Bristol Parkway to Newport, extending to Cardiff on two of the days. I had to use them and to be quite frank it was a nightmare. I had to take a train to Bristol Parkway, then change and queue for a predictably late bus, which then took a painful amount of time getting stuck in traffic out of Bristol and then into Newport, and then change another train at Newport, having missed my original train thanks to the bus.

The ordeal was timetabled to take just under 2 hours, ended up taking more like 3. The two hours quoted by journey planners for Bristol to Cardiff, at a frequency of 2 or 3 trains per hour, and with a single change at Gloucester, sounds like a pretty good option to me.

No, not last time, but I have certainly used them before and it worked just fine for me.

It was also quite a large operation so unless they are going to put on extra or longer trains, I'm not sure how well it's going to work unless they are relying on people deciding just to drive instead.

 

[Benjwri]

No, not last time, but I have certainly used them before and it worked just fine for me.

It was also quite a large operation so unless they are going to put on extra or longer trains, I'm not sure how well it's going to work unless they are relying on people deciding just to drive instead.

Fair enough, I guess it is may have worked better in the past, or perhaps worsening Bristol traffic.

The current frequency Bristol to Cardiff is only 2tph, on the Penzance to Cardiff and Portsmouth to Cardiff. One is a 5 car IET, the other usually a single turbo.

Gloucester services aren’t usually the busiest things, and the tube services can hopefully be lengthened, plus as you say the journey is lengthened which will put some off, however a bus would provide a similar estimated journey time and often puts more off.

I wouldn’t be too concerned about Bristol to Gloucester, some peak services may be closing on full and standing but not terrible.

Gloucester to Cardiff has hourly London IETs calling plus the normal XC and TfW service every hour, which should also be able to soak up the crowds, especially if stock is available to lengthen.

 

[Class 170101]

The Cardiff-Plymouth and Cardiff-Portsmouth services alternate at loosely half hour intervals, there is mix of train types, but about 550-650 seats per hour, each way

I think the buses will be nowhere near 600 seats per hour, each way, more a token service.

Might help if these services rather than terminating at Bristol Parkway perhaps went to either Gloucester or Swindon (or perhaps one of each) to connect with mainline services to London or Cardiff.

Gloucester to Cardiff has hourly London IETs calling plus the normal XC and TfW service every hour, which should also be able to soak up the crowds, especially if stock is available to lengthen.

and XC turn up for the services between Cardiff and Gloucester.

 

[Bikeman78]

What's the capacity of the Severn Tunnel Junction to Gloucester and Gloucester to Bristol Parkway routes? Can't they just divert Cardiff to Bristol services via Gloucester? There's no need to reverse then and journey times wouldn't be too bad if it was a through train. Would also avoid the potential overcrowding of XC services.

Maybe divert them to Gloucester. That would not require any more units or crew compared with the normal journey to Cardiff. Passengers could then connect with one of the three trains per hour from Gloucester. The diverted Swansea trains are stopping there.

 

[Benjwri]

Maybe divert them to Gloucester. That would not require any more units or crew compared with the normal journey to Cardiff. Passengers could then connect with one of the three trains per hour from Gloucester. The diverted Swansea trains are stopping there.

Diverting to Gloucester is likely not possible because the platforms there are very limited. With services already terminating there in the normal timetable, and GWR services running through, there isn’t space to terminate more there, and path it back to Bristol, or to move terminating trains to a siding.

Lengthening the existing services running to Gloucester is the far simpler option.

 

[Snow1964]

Lengthening the existing services running to Gloucester is the far simpler option.

Simpler for railway operationally, not so great for customers who might have to change twice at both Bristol Parkway and Gloucester.

What is more neither station is guaranteed a cross platform change so might be asking passengers to go hundreds of metres along platforms to change, simply because not doing a few shunt moves to/from spurs and sidings in slick manner is seen as bit of effort.

 

[Benjwri]

Simpler for railway operationally, not so great for customers who might have to change twice at both Bristol Parkway and Gloucester.

What is more neither station is guaranteed a cross platform change so might be asking passengers to go hundreds of metres along platforms to change, simply because not doing a few shunt moves to/from spurs and sidings in slick manner is seen as bit of effort.

Considering the other option is closing on operationally impossible though. Gloucester is going to be very busy train wise, and I’m still not sure that it is possible with how long platforms would need to be occupied to change ends, then the pathing across the entrance to the station, and the issue of the level crossing effectively being closed all the time if it were.

I also struggle to see your point on two changes. The churn on both Cardiff services at Bristol Temple Meads is very large, your estimation of this huge amount of passengers having to change is unlikely in my opinion. Very few people travel on the Portsmouth service all the way to Cardiff, and Gloucester is served by Westbury and Weymouth trains, so the majority that would be taking a Portsmouth to Cardiff train can take a Weymouth to Gloucester train. The same for Penzance services. Most past Taunton take CrossCountry to Bristol so would change there anyway. In both situations the diversion is only adding one change.

 

[JKF]

We got caught out by this a few weeks ago, had made arrangements to meet up with friends in Cardiff. Only when I checked the timetable the day before did we find that there were no trains from Temple Meads or Parkway, and no replacement buses either. Looking on the GWR website told us they had run buses on the Saturday, but weren’t on Sunday. Nothing about the possibility of going via Gloucester, which I imagine would stick an hour on the journey time anyway. We could have driven it, but my eldest loves trains so that was supposed to be part of the point in going. Pretty disappointing all round.

 

[aar0]

Journey planners including GWRs suggest catching the bus between Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol Parkway, which appears to be every 3 hours and adds 90 minutes to the journey.

 

[father_jack]

The easements via Gloucester are apparently only in at the moment for Crosscountry and not yet for TFW. The issue with journeys pointing towards using the rail replacement bus is probably related to journey duration being actually shorter than going via Gloucester having a wait and a coonecting train.