Doors opening before train comes to a stop on the Bakerloo

[Fermiboson]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

 

[800001]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

Is half a second even noticeable?

 

[bramling]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

The doors are able to be released once the train drops below a certain speed, which will be very low. The trains are designed like that, so it’s normal behaviour. Though nowadays it isn’t officially regarded as good practice, in olden times it was practically encouraged.

 

[starlight73]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

 

[Bald Rick]

yes it happens on the Vic Line. Happened to me today (also on the Bakerloo).

 

[Dstock7080]

The doors are able to be released once the train drops below a certain speed, which will be very low.

also within range of the CSDE Correct Side Door Enable loop.
It cannot be done outside of this loop unless a further override is activated

 

[bramling]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

I think all the newer stocks do it, though not sure about S stock.

However you won’t see it on the Jubilee and Northern lines as the signalling system carries out various checks before enabling a door release. Hence why on these lines there’s an infuriating pause before the doors open. Same on the CBTC parts of the sub-surface lines.

In earlier days it was certainly possible for 95 stock doors to open quite prematurely.

Think of it as saving a second or two at every station, that’s potentially a minute saved on the overall end-to-end run, which may well be the difference between being able to fit an extra train in each hour. One wonders if the Victoria Line would in fact be able to run their 36tph *without* this quirk.

 

[stuu]

It's a feature, not a bug. Some of the drivers of the old C Stock were very good at timing it so that you could step off very slightly before the train had stopped, if you were in a hurry. The older trains in Paris would open the doors well before stopping, so you could get off before the train had stopped.

 

[IndianPacific]

I’ve also seen this on the Piccadilly line.

Is this still possible on newer stock - if so, I’ve never seen it!

The Class 700s out in NR land can do it when they’re in ATO, but it’s timed so the doors open exactly as the train stops, people won’t notice the doors releasing fractions of a second before that.

 

[WF4HA5HE]

Whats london undergrounds stance on the doors being released before the train has stopped? I know it may only be for a second at low speed but at any TOC that would be classed as a door open in traffic?

 

[Turtle]

Today I witnessed a Bakerloo train open its doors approximately half a second before the train came to a complete stop pulling into Marylebone station on the northbound. With the duration of the discreptancy one would have to be leaning on the door (which I presume is ill-advised for this very reason) to be affected, and as far as I can tell no one was hurt or affected in any way. It does, however, bring to mind some questions:

1. Are there no interlocks preventing the doors from opening if the train was moving?
2. If so, what is the safety proceure preventing unintentional door opening while running?
3. How often does this sort of thing happen and what, if any, consequences have been suffered when it happens?

Surprised anyone would notice.

 

[Fermiboson]

Surprised anyone would notice.

If you are staring at the floor near the sliding doors it is very easy to spot the motion contrast. Certainly I wasn’t the only one who was somewhat surprised.

 

[Towers]

If you are staring at the floor near the sliding doors it is very easy to spot the motion contrast. Certainly I wasn’t the only one who was somewhat surprised.

The vast majority won’t have been at all surprised, this is entirely normal on the Bakerloo.

 

[bramling]

Whats london undergrounds stance on the doors being released before the train has stopped? I know it may only be for a second at low speed but at any TOC that would be classed as a door open in traffic?

Bit of a grey area. Seems to be frowned upon officially (a driver wouldn’t want to do it during an assessment or road test), but kind of recognised that it’s something that is exceptionally low risk but does generate some considerable performance benefit.

So essentially unless or until an incident happens, status quo will prevail, which seems fair enough to me.

Indeed some older stocks are arranged so that not only can the doors be opened just as the train comes to a stand, but the driver can drop the handle at low speed without the deadman activating providing the handle is in particular braking position. So the trains in the past have essentially been designed to facilitate this - the handle can be dropped which in turn allows the driver to have his fingers ready on the door buttons. One of the Video 125 drivers eye view productions (I forget which one) clearly shows the driver doing this.

 

[Mawkie]

Bit of a grey area. Seems to be frowned upon officially (a driver wouldn’t want to do it during an assessment or road test), but kind of recognised that it’s something that is exceptionally low risk but does generate some considerable performance benefit.

This sums it up perfectly.


(Photo showing the drivers console of a 73 stock train, indicating the position of the door open and close buttons.)

Officially, train ops are required to release the deadman's handle and use both hands to press the (red) door open buttons. In reality, most drivers will save time by using one hand and two fingers to open the doors.

I had no idea, until this thread, that someone could possibly take offence at such a trivial matter, but having handled customer complaints in a past role, I suppose I should have anticipated that there's always one...

 

[Fermiboson]

I had no idea, until this thread, that someone could possibly take offence at such a trivial matter, but having handled customer complaints in a past role, I suppose I should have anticipated that there's always one...

I have not taken offence at it. I come from a place where this never happens because of widespread installation of platform screen doors and I was curious as to the differences that enable this. Please assume good faith.

 

[zero]

The older trains in Paris would open the doors well before stopping, so you could get off before the train had stopped.

Does this still happen on the Paris metro? I had a feeling doors on RER trains opened before they came to a full stop too, but can't remember, as the last time I took one was 6 years ago

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Does this still happen on the Paris metro?

Yes and at an earlier stage of arrival whilst travelling at a higher speed. You can easily open the doors and step onto the platform while the train is moving at about a walking pace, as compared to the tube where at the point a bag will fit through the opening doors, the train has already stopped.

 

[kacper]

Does this still happen on the Paris metro? I had a feeling doors on RER trains opened before they came to a full stop too, but can't remember, as the last time I took one was 6 years ago

Yes and the minimum speed is quite higher than our tube one it seems

 

[Silent]

The doors are able to be released once the train drops below a certain speed, which will be very low. The trains are designed like that, so it’s normal behaviour. Though nowadays it isn’t officially regarded as good practice, in olden times it was practically encouraged.

I thought the 2009 stock does similar though

 

[Class 800]

I thought the 2009 stock does similar though

Yes, but only a fraction of a second before the complete stop.

 

[thomalex]

Personally I love this when it happens, usually more often on Bakerloo as had been spotted here.

 

[dastocks]

See also lift doors opening as the cabin arrives at its destination. This used to be quite common and very noticeable in some buildings

 

[trebor79]

See also lift doors opening as the cabin arrives at its destination. This used to be quite common and very noticeable in some buildings

The lifts in my very modern office building do exactly this. It's barley perceptible and it's stopped by the time you swing your foot over the threshold, but they definitely open whilst it's still moving.
It's a sensible way to reduce dwell times and if no safety consequence at all. I quite like it when it happens on the tube. Didn't realise the CSDE could be override, wonder why the frustrated driver I heard once didn't do that. I was sat right behind the cab on the Bakerloo and could hear him signing and tutting at a stop. The next station we stopped and he was obviously slightly short as I heard "OH FOR F'S SAKE!", we moved a foot and then the doors opened. Made me chuckle.

 

[bramling]

The lifts in my very modern office building do exactly this. It's barley perceptible and it's stopped by the time you swing your foot over the threshold, but they definitely open whilst it's still moving.
It's a sensible way to reduce dwell times and if no safety consequence at all. I quite like it when it happens on the tube. Didn't realise the CSDE could be override, wonder why the frustrated driver I heard once didn't do that. I was sat right behind the cab on the Bakerloo and could hear him signing and tutting at a stop. The next station we stopped and he was obviously slightly short as I heard "OH FOR F'S SAKE!", we moved a foot and then the doors opened. Made me chuckle.

If it was the Bakerloo Line he was probably cursing the braking on the trains rather than the door system. The system used on the Bakerloo Line is pretty dependable. What’s less dependable is the train’s ability to stop in exactly the right place to view the platform-based mirrors and/or monitors.

The Northern Line pre-TBTC was rather more temperamental in that some of the stopping positions didn’t quite align to the markers, and even then there was always an element of lottery.

Using CSDE override is never particularly desirable as it does risk the possibility of opening up on the wrong side, but probably more importantly it also requires the driver to have to stand up, so is something of a nuisance. Hence if stopped short it is easier to nudge the train up, likewise if the driver can see that the train is going to stop slightly beyond the mark then hitting the open buttons whilst the train is still moving is an effective solution.

 

[Mawkie]

Using CSDE override is never particularly desirable as it does risk the possibility of opening up on the wrong side

Or the "P45 Button" as it's known by some.

but probably more importantly it also requires the driver to have to stand up

I can see you've spent time with train ops at some point.

Hence if stopped short it is easier to nudge the train up

There is also a risk that the rear doors could be beyond the barriers, or even still in the tunnel, so reaching the stopping mark is usually the best result.

 

[Beebman]

Does this still happen on the Paris metro? I had a feeling doors on RER trains opened before they came to a full stop too, but can't remember, as the last time I took one was 6 years ago

I visited Montreal last month and doors on the Metro trains there also opened before they came to a full stop (the system generally follows Parisian practice including narrow-bodied trains running on rubber tyres).

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I’m told starting a train is relatively easy, stopping it is easy, stopping it in the right place is hard.

 

[bramling]

I’m told starting a train is relatively easy, stopping it is easy, stopping it in the right place is hard.

It isn’t hard exactly, but certainly if you want to try and stop without crawling then there is an element of skill involved, as well as a need for concentration. It isn’t that trains are hard to stop, but more that they aren’t forgiving if the driver gets something wrong.

 

[redreni]

It happens on some S-Bahn trains in Berlin, too.

As a commuter who (prior to the Elizabeth Line opening) made 10 journeys a week on a commuter train that made 12 intermediate stops on a 16 mile journey (so 24 dwell periods a day) I would have been most grateful if the time between the train stopping and the doors opening could have been reduced from the 4 to 5 seconds that appeared to be quite common, down to perhaps zero or -0.5s. It's difficult not to suspect that punctuality during peak hours could have been improved had that been done.