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Fort William Sleeper pre Airdrie-Bathgate

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Farigiraf

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What route did the Fort William portion of the Caledonian (then ScotRail) sleeper take prior to the Airdrie-Bathgate link opening in 2010? Off the top of my head I can think of:
via Shotts, then Glasgow Central Low Level
or
via Croy, then over the now unused curve to Ashfield
Then onto the North Clyde and West Highland
Am I missing something?
 
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D6130

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Euston-Mossend-Springburn-Westerton-Dalmuir....with a short period going Mossend-Stirling (reverse)-Cowlairs-Westerton-Dalmuir due to the criminal activities of the Springburn neds, IIRC.
 

Mag_seven

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In the 80s when it was one railway the sleeper was attached to a daytime Mallaig - QS service. On arrival at QS the sleeper was detached and ran up to Stirling then down to Mossend to join up with the Inverness Sleeper.
 

Magdalia

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The Fort William sleeper has been running from/to Euston since 1976, prior to that it ran from/to Kings Cross.

Euston-Mossend-Springburn-Westerton-Dalmuir

When the daytime service was still loco hauled the down train was hauled down the bank from Cowlairs to attach to the Mallaig train in Glasgow Queen Street.

The up train was detached from the Mallaig train at Cowlairs and did not go into Glasgow Queen Street. The up train was changed to go to Stirling to avoid the "criminal activities", which did not affect the down train in the same way.
 

The exile

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The Fort William sleeper has been running from/to Euston since 1976, prior to that it ran from/to Kings Cross.



When the daytime service was still loco hauled the down train was hauled down the bank from Cowlairs to attach to the Mallaig train in Glasgow Queen Street.

The up train was detached from the Mallaig train at Cowlairs and did not go into Glasgow Queen Street. The up train was changed to go to Stirling to avoid the "criminal activities", which did not affect the down train in the same way.
I was certainly treated to the diversion via Stirling on a down service in February 1988.
 

D6130

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The Fort William sleeper has been running from/to Euston since 1976, prior to that it ran from/to Kings Cross.



When the daytime service was still loco hauled the down train was hauled down the bank from Cowlairs to attach to the Mallaig train in Glasgow Queen Street.

The up train was detached from the Mallaig train at Cowlairs and did not go into Glasgow Queen Street. The up train was changed to go to Stirling to avoid the "criminal activities", which did not affect the down train in the same way.
The 'criminal activities' were very much a late evening phenomenon. Presumably the neds concerned would have still been fast asleep when the Northbound train passed through Springburn in the early hours of the morning. Apologies....I got it the wrong way round in my previous post. It was indeed the Southbound service that was diverted to run via Stirling in the evening.
 

D6130

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Ahem! What was the issue at Springburn at the time?
Local neds (Glaswegian term for criminal gangsters....not fanatical rail enthusiasts!) stopping the train and robbing the valuable cargoes and mail bags from the brake van. Originally they would stand on the track and force the driver to stop....but later developed more sophisticated methods involving interfering with the signalling system, possibly using stolen track circuit operating clips.

I seem to recall that the Dalmuir Riverside whisky trains were also targeted in a similar manner.
 
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30907

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In the 80s when it was one railway the sleeper was attached to a daytime Mallaig - QS service. On arrival at QS the sleeper was detached and ran up to Stirling then down to Mossend to join up with the Inverness Sleeper.
Whereas now the Scotrail coach is attached to the sleeper - and it gets to Ft Wm earlier/leaves later.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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As noted upthread there were various routes taken over the years after sleeper services were concentrated on Euston and the WCML. One issue was accommodating passengers between the WHL and Glasgow. As mentioned when running via Mossend this was achieved by running via Queen Street High Level whether via Springburn or later via Stirling. Then came routing via Central Low Level but without stopping there so a connection was provided at Dalmuir with a similar arrangement after re-routing via Edinburgh and Croy. At some point the Fort William and Inverness services were merged and eventually came the decision to run a single train, nowadays known as the Highland Sleeper, conveying all 3 portions (ie adding Aberdeen) making the Edinburgh route effectively permanent though of course there are still different routes possible between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

However in the late 80s/early 90s Fort William still had a separate train with both day and sleeper coaches and which also ran, at least for a spell, via Birmingham New Street. In April 1989 I did the up service which ran via the Argyle line and then into Central High Level for electric haulage forward (this was a Sunday night so could have been an engineering related diversion). By September 1991 the route was via Edinburgh: I did it in both directions and the down went via Falkirk High with the up via Grahamston.
 

30907

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No, there's a CS seating coach, not a Scotrail one
But it's available to internal passengers (and the NRT labels it as SR!).

BTW I was wrong to say it got in to FTW earlier - it's near enough the same as in the 70s.
 

Davester50

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The 'criminal activities' were very much a late evening phenomenon. Presumably the neds concerned would have still been fast asleep when the Northbound train passed through Springburn in the early hours of the morning. Apologies....I got it the wrong way round in my previous post. It was indeed the Southbound service that was diverted to run via Stirling in the evening.

Northbound in the mid 80s and sat near Eastfield/Cowlairs, not Springburn, for a few hours.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Local neds (Glaswegian term for criminal gangsters....not fanatical rail enthusiasts!) stopping the train and robbing the valuable cargoes and mail bags from the brake van. Originally they would stand on the track and force the driver to stop....but later developed more sophisticated methods involving interfering with the signalling system, possibly using stolen track circuit operating clips. ISTR that the Dalmuir Riverside whisky trains were also targeted in a similar manner.
The up train conveyed salmon from a local fish farm each night heading to the London markets and/or pre purchase by restaurants. It did not carry mail although there would be some parcels of variable value from time to time but fish was the target with no doubt a thriving black market in Glasgow for this produce.

Mail from FW and beyond and from stations as far as Bridge of Orchy were conveyed by freight train to Crianlarich then forward on the evening Oban for further sorting in Glasgow but also for cross city transfer onto the Up Caledonian TPO (Glasgow portion).
 

D6130

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The up train conveyed salmon from a local fish farm each night heading to the London markets and/or pre purchase by restaurants. It did not carry mail although there would be some parcels of variable value from time to time but fish was the target with no doubt a thriving black market in Glasgow for this produce.

Mail from FW and beyond and from stations as far as Bridge of Orchy were conveyed by freight train to Crianlarich then forward on the evening Oban for further sorting in Glasgow but also for cross city transfer onto the Up Caledonian TPO (Glasgow portion).
Many thanks for the clarification!
 

AY1975

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Has Airdrie-Bathgate been the usual route for the Fort William sleeper ever since the line reopened? Did the FW sleeper start using this route right from the first day of passenger services on the reopened line?
 

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Has Airdrie-Bathgate been the usual route for the Fort William sleeper ever since the line reopened? Did the FW sleeper start using this route right from the first day of passenger services on the reopened line?
I seem to recall it continued using it's old route for a few years after A-B was reopened, can't remember exactly when the change occurred. I want to say after Abellio & Serco got the keys to both franchises, but I'll leave it to others to give a definitive answer.
 
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I seem to recall it continued using it's old route for a few years after A-B was reopened, can't remember exactly when the change occurred. I want to say after Abellio & Serco got the keys to both franchises, but I'll leave it to others to give a definitive answer.
I think the sleeper was re-routed via A-B in around 2016 in connection with the EGIP work and remained so since then, though the old route is used occasionally on diversions.
 

Strathclyder

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I think the sleeper was re-routed via A-B in around 2016 in connection with the EGIP work and remained so since then, though the old route is used occasionally on diversions.
That actually does ring a bell, yes. Why I didn't think of that I don't know. Cheers for refreshing my memory. :)
 

FtoE

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Sorry if I’ve missed it above, but isn’t there a short section of track from Westerton to Maryhill that is used only by the Fort William sleeper? I have a memory of ScotRail (when they had the sleeper contract) planning to put on a very late night weekly service when they were planning to withdraw the FW sleeper to avoid the legalities of closing the line (or some such). It was this that kick-started the Save-the-Sleeper.
I’m pretty sure that I read the name “Deerstalker Express” was coined as a pejorative (ie - only used by the wealthy and of no use to normal travellers) by a famously right-wing paper.
 

Gloster

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Sorry if I’ve missed it above, but isn’t there a short section of track from Westerton to Maryhill that is used only by the Fort William sleeper? I have a memory of ScotRail (when they had the sleeper contract) planning to put on a very late night weekly service when they were planning to withdraw the FW sleeper to avoid the legalities of closing the line (or some such). It was this that kick-started the Save-the-Sleeper.
I’m pretty sure that I read the name “Deerstalker Express” was coined as a pejorative (ie - only used by the wealthy and of no use to normal travellers) by a famously right-wing paper.

My recollection is that ‘Deerstalker Express’ appeared at the time of privatisation when there was a fear that the service would be orphaned and disappear. I have a feeling that some using the name were unaware that others were using it in a denigtrating sense.
 

D6130

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Sorry if I’ve missed it above, but isn’t there a short section of track from Westerton to Maryhill that is used only by the Fort William sleeper? I have a memory of ScotRail (when they had the sleeper contract) planning to put on a very late night weekly service when they were planning to withdraw the FW sleeper to avoid the legalities of closing the line (or some such). It was this that kick-started the Save-the-Sleeper.
I’m pretty sure that I read the name “Deerstalker Express” was coined as a pejorative (ie - only used by the wealthy and of no use to normal travellers) by a famously right-wing paper.
The Westerton to Maryhill line (Knightswood North Junction to Maryhill Park Junction) is used by all the daytime West Highland services. I think you may be confusing it with the curve from Cowlairs North Junction to Cowlairs East Junction, which currently has no scheduled passenger services - AFAIK - although the Fort William sleeper is sometimes diverted that way when there are engineering works on the Bathgate route.
 

FtoE

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The Westerton to Maryhill line (Knightswood North Junction to Maryhill Park Junction) is used by all the daytime West Highland services. I think you may be confusing it with the curve from Cowlairs North Junction to Cowlairs East Junction, which currently has no scheduled passenger services - AFAIK - although the Fort William sleeper is sometimes diverted that way when there are engineering works on the Bathgate route.
That could well be the case - but I’m sure that there was a little section of track (somewhere!) that stopped the sleeper from being withdrawn.
 

norbitonflyer

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It was indeed Cowlairs E to N that is, the link betwen the main line to/from Falkirk and the West Highland Line. This currently has no regular services, now that the FW sleeper goes via Bathgate
 

Peter0124

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1Y11 (Euston to Fort William via Edinburgh) can sometimes be sent via its old route via E&G and Maryhill, it seems most times when it leaves Edinburgh 10+ late it immediately heads for the E&G.

Is the E&G route faster than A2B for getting to Westerton? Or is it because they don't want the train to run through the busier North Clyde Line when the Scotrail services start? What happens to those boarding at Queen Street?
 

norbitonflyer

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Is the E&G route faster than A2B for getting to Westerton? What happens to those boarding at Queen Street?
Yes. I don't know what happens in the morning, but in the other direction I think they have to change at Dalmuir (the electrics are still running at that time)
 
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