Cross Country cutting out Winchester, Basingstoke and other stops

[HamworthyGoods]

You should come down to Portsmouth (Fratton) where the same TOC have insufficient rolling stock to provide more than 2 cars of the contracted 5

I’m not sure where you have the information that Great Western are contracted to provide 5 car trains between Portsmouth and Cardiff?

The only trains currently agreed with DfT to be 5 cars from Portsmouth are the 06.01 and 14.23 departures from Portsmouth.

The majority of trains are planned to operate as either 3 car 166s or 4 car 158s which have similar seating numbers (but still greater than the 3 car 158s which used to rule the roost on this route).

 

[cle]

The problem we have is that trains on the SW Main Line and the Portsmouth Direst stop too often and, on the SW Main Line the two "fast" trains are at best semi-fasts. The service on both lines compares unfavourably with the service to similar destinations, such as Oxford and Cambridge. What is needed is a restoration of a first stop Winchester off Waterloo to Weymouth and then two semi-fasts, stopping at both Basingstoke and Woking. If a scheme could be developed to avoid splitting and joining at Southampton or Bournemouth, that would be even better (I say this as someone who has to endure this on the Victoria to Portsmouth/ Bognor Regis line for many years). X Country are to be congratulated for trying something different, now that there is less need to worry about operators abstracting revenue from each other. All this is perhaps an opportunity for an Open Access Operator?

It feels to me that another, faster service on this line is much needed. Whether it can be pathed, a split, or something has to move (second Salisbury tph moves to Reading? it's far shorter) - but there is a clear need for more at Basingstoke and Winchester certainly.

 

[jayah]

The DfT control fleets, not the TOCs. If a TOC has insufficient stock that’ll be because the DfT said so. This is the modern railway!

Many of them don't have insufficient stock, they simply leave it stock parked in the sidings.

 

[Towers]

Many of them don't have insufficient stock, they simply leave it stock parked in the sidings.

Can you provide some specific examples of that??

 

[Kite159]

Was on a 5 coach voyager yesterday, usual full & standing when it rolled into Banbury, at Reading it pretty much emptied out and coach F had plenty of empty seats on departure from Reading, and that was the one closest to the entrance.

One of those trains which will cease calling at Basingstoke during the summer so will likely be carrying fewer passengers with the 2 coach 165 on the stopper taking the load.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Many of them don't have insufficient stock, they simply leave it stock parked in the sidings.

Could you give some examples please?

 

[FenMan]

I can solve XC's overcrowding problem at a stroke (using the same thought process as they have here).

Simply eliminate the Oxford and Banbury calls and persuade GWR to run an hourly shuttle between Banbury and Oxford to connect with Chiltern's services. That'd work.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I can solve XC's overcrowding problem at a stroke (using the same thought process as they have here).

Simply eliminate the Oxford and Banbury calls and persuade GWR to run an hourly shuttle between Banbury and Oxford to connect with Chiltern's services. That'd work.

Does anyone remember back in maybe 2005, when Virgin randomly missed out calling at Cheltenham Spa on some of their Voyagers, as well as alternating between calling at Wigan and Warrington?

Also I remember 13:25 ish Plymouth to Glasgow via Preston used to run none stop between Birmingham New Street and Crewe.

 

[paul1609]

I can solve XC's overcrowding problem at a stroke (using the same thought process as they have here).

Simply eliminate the Oxford and Banbury calls and persuade GWR to run an hourly shuttle between Banbury and Oxford to connect with Chiltern's services. That'd work.

Withdraw Xc services from south of Reading. New service using new trimode trains, London Paddington, Old Oak Common, Reading, Basingstoke,Winchester, Southampton AP, Southampton C, Christchurch, Bournemouth, Poole.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does anyone remember back in maybe 2005, when Virgin randomly missed out calling at Cheltenham Spa on some of their Voyagers, as well as alternating between calling at Wigan and Warrington?

Pre operation princess there were many more services doing just as proposed here, omitting calls to reduce over crowding on long distance services.

 

[cle]

I can solve XC's overcrowding problem at a stroke (using the same thought process as they have here).

Simply eliminate the Oxford and Banbury calls and persuade GWR to run an hourly shuttle between Banbury and Oxford to connect with Chiltern's services. That'd work.

Sounds like the Oxford - Moor St Chiltern service could step forward! Oxford- Birmingham needs more capacity overall.


And maybe timetable them a few mins ahead of an XC - if stock can keep speed

 

[virgintrain1]

Does anyone remember back in maybe 2005, when Virgin randomly missed out calling at Cheltenham Spa on some of their Voyagers, as well as alternating between calling at Wigan and Warrington?

Also I remember 13:25 ish Plymouth to Glasgow via Preston used to run none stop between Birmingham New Street and Crewe.

This is surely the best approach. The busiest long distance services have a individual calling pattern based on where that specific service gets swapped with to many short journeys. We don't need an all or nothing approach to calling at places like Wolverhampton especially as XC is predominantly leisure based reducing the need for a clock face timetable everywhere.

 

[The Planner]

This is surely the best approach. The busiest long distance services have a individual calling pattern based on where that specific service gets swapped with to many short journeys. We don't need an all or nothing approach to calling at places like Wolverhampton especially as XC is predominantly leisure based reducing the need for a clock face timetable everywhere.

Clockface is what everyone expects, and having off pattern trains isnt briilliant for capacity. With how full most main lines are, the paths the off pattern trains will get won't be that much quicker anyway.

 

[mangyiscute]

This is surely the best approach. The busiest long distance services have a individual calling pattern based on where that specific service gets swapped with to many short journeys. We don't need an all or nothing approach to calling at places like Wolverhampton especially as XC is predominantly leisure based reducing the need for a clock face timetable everywhere.

clock face timetables are great, i don't understand why we would want to move away from them. makes everything simpler

 

[HamworthyGoods]

clock face timetables are great, i don't understand why we would want to move away from them. makes everything simpler

Because as proven in this situation they don’t always help match demand to available capacity.

 

[Snow1964]

Found an interesting snippet in XC track application this year

A breakdown of service levels at Birmingham New Street in the May 2025 uplift is included below for reference purposes:
• Increase in the quantum of services at Birmingham New Street on an average weekday, but still not to December 2019 levels.
• Total movements are up ~17% from May 23 and 14% from May 22.
• At a service group level
• Service quantum on Cambridge/Stansted and Leicester flows are static compared against May 22/May 23
• Cardiff/Nottingham flows are static against Dec 23
• Manchester/Bristol/Bournemouth is similar to May 23.
• Newcastle/Reading is increased against May 23
• South Coast/NE flows via Leeds are slightly decreased against May 23

Note that XC are openly saying not returning to 2019 levels,
and they appear to be saying South Coast / NE flows will be decreased by May 2025

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-03/xc-trains-limited%20-s17-application-application-form-p.pdf

 

[DelW]

Many of them don't have insufficient stock, they simply leave it stock parked in the sidings.

Can you provide some specific examples of that??

Could you give some examples please?

Well, 769/9s and 458/4s for starters. Both fleets are newly rebuilt and refurbished, neither has ever carried a passenger and may never do so. 701s are barely any better...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well, 769/9s and 458/4s for starters. Both fleets are newly rebuilt and refurbished, neither has ever carried a passenger and may never do so. 701s are barely any better...

We are talking about trains that can release diesel units not surplus EMUs.

 

[Towers]

Well, 769/9s and 458/4s for starters. Both fleets are newly rebuilt and refurbished, neither has ever carried a passenger and may never do so. 701s are barely any better...

Just to tie up that argument; the GWR 769s were returned to meet DfT mandated cost savings, and 458s are unlikely to be required as part of the long term fleet strategy once 701s eventually enter service, which they will. And the issues there have been well documented of course, they aren’t sat in sidings because SWR have just decided not to use them!

TOCs willfully choosing not to use available fleet assets is really not part of the issue here.

 

[swt_passenger]

Found an interesting snippet in XC track application this year


Note that XC are openly saying not returning to 2019 levels,
and they appear to be saying South Coast / NE flows will be decreased by May 2025

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-03/xc-trains-limited%20-s17-application-application-form-p.pdf

I wonder if that section should be read in conjunction with the adjoining line about Reading to Newcastle (via Doncaster?) being increased at the same time as services from the South Coast to NE “via Leeds” being slightly decreased. I still read the whole thing as Reading to York/Newcastle being slightly increased.

I think we’ve already covered the obvious lack of Reading to Southampton extensions, in earlier threads. The TAA was only the final confirmation that they’re no longer being mentioned at all.

 

[DelW]

We are talking about trains that can release diesel units not surplus EMUs.

Which is what the 769/9s were meant to do, surely?

TOCs willfully choosing not to use available fleet assets is really not part of the issue here.

From a passenger point of view, it doesn't matter *who* makes the decision, they're crammed on overcrowded trains while others sit unused in storage.

I admit that both cases are off the topic of XC though.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Which is what the 769/9s were meant to do, surely?

But have sadly failed to do that, with unreliability on diesel.

 

[Kilopylae]

Withdraw Xc services from south of Reading. New service using new trimode trains, London Paddington, Old Oak Common, Reading, Basingstoke,Winchester, Southampton AP, Southampton C, Christchurch, Bournemouth, Poole.

Is there space between Paddington and Reading for an extra train per hour?

 

[jayah]

Is there space between Paddington and Reading for an extra train per hour?

There are quite a few that were removed during the pandemic.

 

[jayah]

We are talking about trains that can release diesel units not surplus EMUs.

The DfT would rather scrap, store and export perfectly good rolling stock than increase capacity, comfort, punctuality and revenue.

TOCs would rather park the rolling stock they do have in the sidings on Sundays, rather than reduced overcrowding.

Trains really aren't the problem here.

 

[mangyiscute]

Is there space between Paddington and Reading for an extra train per hour?

Off peak - yes. Peak - unsure.
The toughest part is platform space at paddington and getting it in and out of paddington without conflicting anything else.

 

[43066]

From a passenger point of view, it doesn't matter *who* makes the decision, they're crammed on overcrowded trains while others sit unused in storage.

While that may be true it isn’t the case that this is down to TOCs simply deciding to leave stock parked up for the sake of it, independently of the DfT, as the earlier poster was suggesting.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

TOCs would rather park the rolling stock they do have in the sidings on Sundays, rather than reduced overcrowding.

That is not correct.
The treasury is not prepared to incur the additional opex costs of strengthening services and so the specifier DfT do not request it.

The TOCs simply are there to deliver what the specification requires.

 

[Fermiboson]

Have never seen a standing only XC south of Reading. Meanwhile the 0939 and 1039 Oxford northbounds are always crushloaded to Birmingham. An Oxford to B’ham Moor St is sorely needed even with the XC calls remaining in place.

Relatedly, XC are also apparently cutting calls at Wakefield on some weekends - the local MP is apoplectic about it although I can’t actually find what was cut and what was not, and XC’s website is less than helpful:

Passengers ‘left in the lurch’ over decision to axe long-distance services at Wakefield Westgate

A train operator has been accused of leaving passengers ‘in the lurch’ over its decision to withdraw services at Wakefield’s main railway station.

www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk

A train operator has been accused of leaving passengers ‘in the lurch’ over its decision to withdraw services at Wakefield’s main railway station.
CrossCountry has announced that some long-distance services will no longer call at Wakefield Westgate over the summer.
The operator said the move is designed to reduce overcrowding on services between Scotland and the South West of England.

Mr Lightwood, a shadow transport minister, said: “Countless Wakefield residents will now be left in the lurch thanks to CrossCountry’s choice to withdraw these long-distance services from stopping at Westgate.

“CrossCountry claims this step is necessary to reduce overcrowding, but cutting off my constituents from vital arterial routes and forcing passengers onto other services already stretched to the limit is not the answer.”
CrossCountry said the changes are designed to encourage passengers making shorter journeys to switch to other operators, providing more capacity for those making longer journeys.

That said, unlike Winchester/Basingstoke, Wakefield to Leeds and Sheffield are served by a relatively reasonable frequency with an express through Kirkgate and LNER for Leeds.

 

[Kite159]

That said, unlike Winchester/Basingstoke, Wakefield to Leeds and Sheffield are served by a relatively reasonable frequency with an express through Kirkgate and LNER for Leeds

Ah yes the 2 coach 195s on the Northern services via Barnsley which can already be crush loaded without the extra passengers from Wakefield bring displaced from XC services.

Don't worry passengers of Barnsley, if you can't squeeze on the stopper is behind it.