Worth pursuing with Ombudsman?

[AlterEgo]

Is there a possibility it wasn't on the board when the OP first checked as a platform hadn't been allocated?

Departures appear on the King’s Cross board regardless of whether a platform has been allocated or not. They’re in pure chronological order.

 

[gray1404]

Departures appear on the King’s Cross board regardless of whether a platform has been allocated or not. They’re in pure chronological order.

I therefore cannot understand why the OPs departure was not listed.

 

[island]

They seem to have been fixated on getting on a train that was going to Edinburgh rather than getting the booked train.

 

[Haywain]

I therefore cannot understand why the OPs departure was not listed.

Or why the OP was mistaken about that?

 

[dosxuk]

I therefore cannot understand why the OPs departure was not listed.

I would suspect it was - just labelled "Delayed 11:38" or something, so the OP discounted it as it wasn't leaving at the time their ticket said. They wouldn't be the first person to make that mistake, or the last.

 

[John R]

In all of this, I can’t help wondering how much the OP would have been saving in comparison to simply booking on the 1130. Split tickets are great when you stay on the same train, but as soon as they involve a change that would be unnecessary with a through ticket they do involve additional risk, particularly to journey time if the connection is missed and you have to wait a long time for the next service with that operator. And as we’ve seen in this case, risk that the journey plan is not well understood, maybe by someone less familiar with current railway operations than we are.

As split tickets become more mainstream, I think the savings and downsides over a single ticketed journey should be very clear to consumers. (See also Advance tickets for short journeys - I’m looking at you here Northern.)

 

[gray1404]

I am wondering if it might be best that the OP pays the amount being asked for by LNER given the reduced figure is available.

However it does make me wonder why they are so happy to offer a reduced amount and if an error was made when it was issued originally.

What sort of ticket did they hold for the Grand Central leg of the journey? As it was unused it might has been possible to get a refund within 28 days of the journey to,.even if it was an advance as the GC service was delayed.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I would suspect it was - just labelled "Delayed 11:38" or something, so the OP discounted it as it wasn't leaving at the time their ticket said. They wouldn't be the first person to make that mistake, or the last.

I don't agree with that - the departure board still carries the scheduled departure time, and then also any delay, it never replaces the scheduled time with a real time estimate of the actual departure time

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not what the OP claimed:

That’s why I was wondering if it ran. As it did, I’d guess the OP saw the delayed time and misread it. Not the first person to do it, won’t be the last.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That’s why I was wondering if it ran. As it did, I’d guess the OP saw the delayed time and misread it. Not the first person to do it, won’t be the last.

And of course it was the (delayed) 1127 train service to Sunderland, not Edinburgh Waverley. There was also the 1127 service to Cambridge, highly unlikely ever to be the right train for a journey/itinerary to the Scottish capital.

I KNOW I should examined ticket more closely.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the key issue.

 

[BRX]

It's sad that in situations like this, it's not looked at from the angle of "what's more likely here: the passenger was trying to fare-dodge or the passenger made a mistake?"

Is it plausible that the OP had bought a cheaper ticket and then deliberately tried to use a service that would have been more expensive? What would they have gained from this? They'd not have departed significantly later or arrived significantly earlier. Ok, they'd have saved themselves a change at York. But wouldn't any reasonable person look at this and say, looks like a genuine mistake?

 

[Haywain]

But wouldn't any reasonable person look at this and say, looks like a genuine mistake?

Who has said otherwise?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's sad that in situations like this, it's not looked at from the angle of "what's more likely here: the passenger was trying to fare-dodge or the passenger made a mistake?"

It's more likely the passenger made a mistake, but LNER aren't obliged to carry her for free. I don't think we can criticise LNER for selling them a new ticket.

 

[BRX]

Who has said otherwise?

LNER.

But more generally "the railway". It's sad that this is how our railway works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2024 ==

It's more likely the passenger made a mistake, but LNER aren't obliged to carry her for free. I don't think we can criticise LNER for selling them a new ticket.

It didn't cost LNER £300 to carry these two passengers.

 

[island]

It didn't cost LNER £300 to carry these two passengers.

Nor does it cost LNER the price on the ticket to carry any other passenger. What's your point?

 

[Haywain]

LNER.

LNER issuedcan Unpaid Fares Notice because the passenger was on the train without a valid ticket. It isn't a judgement of whether it was deliberate or unintentional.

 

[BRX]

It's entirely within LNER's power (either on the train, or in response to the OP's email) to say, ok, we see you made a genuine mistake, so we aren't going to charge you for this, please check your tickets more carefully in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2024 ==

LNER issuedcan Unpaid Fares Notice because the passenger was on the train without a valid ticket. It isn't a judgement of whether it was deliberate or unintentional.

"Computer says no"

 

[Turtle]

It's entirely within LNER's power (either on the train, or in response to the OP's email) to say, ok, we see you made a genuine mistake, so we aren't going to charge you for this, please check your tickets more carefully in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2024 ==


"Computer says no"

That would certainly be good for the "Railway's" public relations. Unfortunately this is a concept almost entirely foreign to the privatised system we now have.

 

[John R]

That would certainly be good for the "Railway's" public relations. Unfortunately this is a concept almost entirely foreign to the privatised system we now have.

Is that the privatised system on which LNER (a government owned company) runs trains on Network Rail (a government owned company) by any chance?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's entirely within LNER's power (either on the train, or in response to the OP's email) to say, ok, we see you made a genuine mistake, so we aren't going to charge you for this, please check your tickets more carefully in the future.

Why should they not take the fare for the journey?

It makes no difference to LNER if I decide tomorrow to go from London to Edinburgh. If I decide not to go, LNER don't get any revenue, and if I turn up and there's a spare seat, perhaps I should argue that it isn't costing them any more money to convey me to Scotland, so bugger off I'm not paying.

I might have some sympathy with this argument if LNER had found this passenger on the wrong train, having got an Advance for a different time on a different LNER service on the correct route. As a general rule, when I would handle complaints about this for Virgin West Coast, if the complainant held their hands up and said "well damn, I screwed up, and made an expensive mistake" you could write back and explain how and why that has happened, offer advice, and give them the fare back in vouchers for future journeys to engender goodwill. You could even phone them if it was complicated. Good old days.

But, as it is, the OP decided to split their ticket on two different privatised operators to save money and avoid travelling on LNER (who were no doubt more expensive), and in the process give them £0 in revenue. And then travelled on the LNER train to Edinburgh. And still doesn't seem to have read their booking confirmation even after the fact!

 

[BRX]

Why should they not take the fare for the journey?

As a gesture of goodwill to a passenger who made an honest mistake (potentially partly as a result of being given wrong advice by railway staff).

The passenger's mistake did not actually cost them anything.

At the very least, they could have offered that the passenger pays the off-peak single fare to York, gets off there and resumes their journey on their original itinerary.

Their approach is punitive, which I think is only appropriate if there's a reasonable suspicion that the passenger deliberately did something to evade the proper fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At the very least, they could have offered that the passenger pays the off-peak single fare to York, gets off there and resumes their journey on their original itinerary.

Think the booked XC connection at York may well have departed already, by the time that the 1130 LNER from KGX got in. It's worth the OP appealing their case to the Ombudsman, just not too sure just how far they'll get.

 

[wilbers]

Think the booked XC connection at York may well have departed already, by the time that the 1130 LNER from KGX got in. It's worth the OP appealing their case to the Ombudsman, just not too sure just how far they'll get.

Well, if the train they were booked on was delayed then they still couldn't have caught it and the ticket from York (assuming an advance) would still have been valid for the next XC train. I assume that is why the price changed in the first post from c.£300 to £169 - tickets to York only not Edinburgh on LNER and change at York is what they should have been sold (and then attempt to get reimbursed later if they want to go down the route that permission had been given to use the Grand Central tickets on the LNER train by LNER staff in error).

 

[John R]

Well, if the train they were booked on was delayed then they still couldn't have caught it and the ticket from York (assuming an advance) would still have been valid for the next XC train. I assume that is why the price changed in the first post from c.£300 to £169 - tickets to York only not Edinburgh on LNER and change at York is what they should have been sold (and then attempt to get reimbursed later if they want to go down the route that permission had been given to use the Grand Central tickets on the LNER train by LNER staff in error).

The train they were booked on would have made the connection. The train they were mistakenly on did not, nor was it timed to do so, with its booked arrival time being exactly the same as the XC departure time.

 

[BRX]

I think there's a general issue about advice given by staff at stations.

It seems that two sets of staff at KX managed to give the OP wrong information. Probably because they did not look closely enough at the ticket held.

Should there be some kind of protocol for staff in these situations? For example, should there be specific training not to advise anyone to take a specific train unless the ticket has been properly examined? There is not much use having staff to hand if the advice they give can't be relied upon.

Maybe there are times when a member of staff doesn't have the time or knowledge to examine the ticket fully - and maybe in these cases they need to clearly say "sorry, I can't advise you on your ticket validity - please check with X or Y".

This case actually reminds me of something that happened to me at KX not that long ago: I had a Lumo ticket to Edinburgh, and there was major disruption on the day, such that the Lumo train previous to my booked one was actually leaving after my scheduled departure time. I wondered if they might let me get on that one - I was let through the gates on that basis, but I also then asked someone in a Lumo uniform, standing next to the train, if it would be ok for me to get on that one even though it didn't match my ticket. Yes that's fine she said, only saying that they couldn't guarantee I'd get a seat, a risk I was happy to take. A little while after departure the conductor came round and looked at my ticket and said I was on the wrong train. I explained the advice I'd been given on the platform and he frowned and said that's not right and who exactly told you that. He did agree that I could stay on the train, but clearly only at his (slightly reluctant) discretion. I was OK in that case but it did make me realise, if you are given advice verbally by any member of staff you actually can't rely on it at all, because if you're subsequently challenged you've no evidence of anything.

(In fact, on that occasion I think I saved Lumo quite a lot of money because had I waited for my correct train, it would have got to Edinburgh so late that I'd have missed the last train of the day for my onward connection and I would have been making claims for overnight accommodation and possibly new Scotrail tickets the next day)

 

[ollyrogers]

you do have to be very careful these days when booking these, I nearly had a similar issue the first time I was booked onto a GC service through the LNER app (simply as I was expecting the LNER app to sell me a ticket for an LNER train) and I had a panic at KX when my train appeared not to exist.

Fortunately, all restrictions had been lifted as it was that 40 degree day a couple of years ago but I have every sympathy when you expect one thing and something else arrives.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - we're starting to drift off-topic and into speculative discussion which is not helpful to the OP. Discussion about how this sort of thing can be prevented in future is welcome but should be in a separate thread on the appropriate section of the forum.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is that the privatised system on which LNER (a government owned company) runs trains on Network Rail (a government owned company) by any chance?

I suspect the "privatised mentality" is still well ingrained after all these years; it might take a while after integrating the system under public control before there's a more universal "public service mentality".

 

[Dr Hoo]

I suspect the "privatised mentality" is still well ingrained after all these years; it might take a while after integrating the system under public control before there's a more universal "public service mentality".

The final integrated GBR public system will presumably remove most of these cheap, competitive, split ticketing opportunities and eliminate the sort of saving that the OP was hoping to take advantage of.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The final integrated GBR public system will presumably remove most of these cheap, competitive, split ticketing opportunities and eliminate the sort of saving that the OP was hoping to take advantage of.

Although it's perhaps worth noting that a lot (or maybe some?) of classic split-ticketing opportunities are down to differences in who sets the fare: the example that leaps to my mind is Birmingham to Bristol where the XC set fare can be undercut by splitting at Cheltenham and so using the cheaper Cheltenham to Bristol fare set by GWR. This sort of thing won't go away unless/until long distance fares are made up of multiples of short distance components of the journey.