Do you think providing a good affordable service would stop evasion?

[Adam1997]

After having a run in when I was accused of not having a valid ticket (it was) and looking at this forum and speaking to other people’s experiences with various TOCs.

I was wondering whether people on this forum thought that if the TOCs performed better would there be less fare evasion?

I know there will always be a few people avoiding fares, but I wondered if there was more goodwill towards TOCs and or cheaper tickets there would be less fare evasion?

 

[Bletchleyite]

After having a run in when I was accused of not having a valid ticket (it was) and looking at this forum and speaking to other people’s experiences with various TOCs. I was wondering whether people on this forum thought that if the TOCs performed better would there be less fare evasion? I know there will always be a few people avoiding fares but wondered if there was more goodwill towards TOCs and or cheaper tickets there would be less fare evasion

I doubt it - if the service is rubbish you can (mostly) claw your fare back via Delay Repay anyway, so people who don't pay are, by and large, just dishonest anyway and would continue to do so even were the service perfect.

 

[John R]

No. The Severn Beach line has stupidly cheap fares and from what I can gather there is still a lot of fare evasion. And whilst some might be due to the difficulty in collecting fares between stops, a lot won’t be.

 

[Adam1997]

No. The Severn Beach line has stupidly cheap fares and from what I can gather there is still a lot of fare evasion. And whilst some might be due to the difficulty in collecting fares between stops, a lot won’t be.

I doubt it - if the service is rubbish you can (mostly) claw your fare back via Delay Repay anyway, so people who don't pay are, by and large, just dishonest anyway and would continue to do so even were the service perfect.

It would be interesting to compare with European rail companies that provide cheaper fares and or a better service to see their rates of fare evasion. The delay repay system is good though it’s a bit complicated for the uninitiated.

 

[Buzby]

What is affordable for some will be unaffordable to others - you’d only get a balance if the journey was ‘free’ (ie someone else is paying). Don’t forget affordability is only one variable - others may just want to save money to fund a different purchase so I doubt if would solve anything!

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be interesting to compare with European rail companies that provide cheaper fares and or a better service to see their rates of fare evasion. The delay repay system is good though it’s a bit complicated for the uninitiated.

Fare evasion is a cultural thing and doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any relation to the affordability of fares. Remember that "rates of fare evasion" is a non-statistic because you can only record evasions that have been detected.

Fundamentally, a lot of people are dishonest, which is the root cause.

 

[The exile]

It would be interesting to compare with European rail companies that provide cheaper fares and or a better service to see their rates of fare evasion. The delay repay system is good though it’s a bit complicated for the uninitiated.

Where you’re probably right is when a) having a zonal season ticket is cheap enough to be something “everybody” has and b) where carrying ID is compulsory, so that dealing with evaders is much simpler.

 

[skyhigh]

It's such a common excuse.

People only shoplift because stores charge too much.
People try to fiddle their taxes because the Government takes too much.
People fare evader because the fares are too high.

The reality is if fares were halved and frequencies doubled overnight the same people would still fare evade.

 

[ChrisC]

Fare evasion is a cultural thing and doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any relation to the affordability of fares. Remember that "rates of fare evasion" is a non-statistic because you can only record evasions that have been detected.

Fundamentally, a lot of people are dishonest, which is the root cause.

Sadly a lot of people are dishonest and it has become a cultural thing to evade paying fares. Worryingly the rapid rise in the amount of people shop lifting also seems to be part of this culture. It wouldn’t matter how low the fares became this type of person would continue to try to evade paying. The very sort of people who would even steal from a charity shop or church jumble sale.

 

[Dai Corner]

I doubt it. This morning I witnessed four schoolboys boarding a train for Penarth at Grangetown (Cardiff). The service runs every 15 mins and is normally worked by nearly new Class 231 Stadler Flirts. They all claimed to have no cash or cards on them to pay the £1.85 fare.

 

[185]

If people paid, the railway would be less reliant on state handouts and could afford investment for a reliable service.

The penalties for minor fare evasion - too harsh whist the penalties for severe fare evasion, (eg fraud with proven intent) are too weak.

 

[30907]

Where you’re probably right is when a) having a zonal season ticket is cheap enough to be something “everybody” has and b) where carrying ID is compulsory, so that dealing with evaders is much simpler.

So Germany - where "Schwarzfahren" on regional/urban services is endemic, despite the risk of an EUR80 spot penalty.

I don't know of any country that is immune to fare-dodging.

 

[Undiscovered]

Given that it's £2.80,after 1830, for a return to anywhere within the West Midlands rail network, the amount of threats and aggro I get off some passengers over said fare, I would say no.
Sadly, since COVID, behaviour has gone down and the sense of entitlement has gone up.

 

[Haywain]

Sadly a lot of people are dishonest and it has become a cultural thing to evade paying fares.

Actually, I think that a lot of people who do not consider themselves dishonest (and would be upset at a suggestion that they are) are quite happy to take advantage of and create opportunities to avoid paying businesses for goods and services because "it doesn't hurt anyone".

 

[Hadders]

Actually, I think that a lot of people who do not consider themselves dishonest (and would be upset at a suggestion that they are) are quite happy to take advantage of and create opportunities to avoid paying businesses for goods and services because "it doesn't hurt anyone".

I agree with this.

It's similar to supermarket self checkouts, many people are prepared to organise their own special offers - they see it as cheating the system rather than theft. Of course it isn't but there will always be fare evasion, whatever the level of fares charged.

 

[Coolzac]

I agree with everyone else that a lot of of fare evasion would still go ahead, but I do think there's a certain kind of fare evasion that would be lower if the fares were significantly cheaper. The high fares on some routes incentivises 'chancing it' for some people on lower incomes or who just balk at paying the full fare.

 

[johntea]

You often read about cases involving individuals that earn a 6 figure salary and still chance it!

 

[Coolzac]

You often read about cases involving individuals that earn a 6 figure salary and still chance it!

I might hesitantly suggest that maybe some people get to the top with big salaries by cheating, lying and bending the rules.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm going to stick my head out here and say yes - I do think a more affordable service will help. I think that the social fabric of the UK has massively deteriorated in the past few years which means, not only are people poorer, but angrier. Causing a phenomenon where Britain has a kind of "last days of Rome" feeling to it, where nobody feels much in a way of social obligation to anything. It's not just how people conduct themselves in public, but it's also reflective in the awful service you get from many people-facing roles. No sense of community, no sense of accountability, no sense that anyone cares what they do or not. I've read the disputes page (a reason why I never use e-tickets) and I think most of the people posting were genuinely trying to save money - not dishonest people. I think having a more affordable service will skim off some fare-avoiders, but our society as a whole needs to massively improve.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Fare evasion is a cultural thing and doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any relation to the affordability of fares. Remember that "rates of fare evasion" is a non-statistic because you can only record evasions that have been detected.

Fundamentally, a lot of people are dishonest, which is the root cause.

+1

There's a worryingly "normalised" culture in (it seems to me) teens to 30s, which comes across as a self-entitled attitude of "I want but I won't pay for it".

 

[Coolzac]

I'm going to stick my head out here and say yes - I do think a more affordable service will help. I think that the social fabric of the UK has massively deteriorated in the past few years which means, not only are people poorer, but angrier. Causing a phenomenon where Britain has a kind of "last days of Rome" feeling to it, where nobody feels much in a way of social obligation to anything. It's not just how people conduct themselves in public, but it's also reflective in the awful service you get from many people-facing roles. No sense of community, no sense of accountability, no sense that anyone cares what they do or not. I've read the disputes page (a reason why I never use e-tickets) and I think most of the people posting were genuinely trying to save money - not dishonest people. I think having a more affordable service will skim off some fare-avoiders, but our society as a whole needs to massively improve.

I would very much agree with this. A lot of those at the top are the worst- look at the behaviour of those setting the rules during COVID. I think the increased scrutiny of politicians and corporations have revealed often the hypocrisy and so more and more at the bottom are deciding not to play by the rules either!

 

[Dai Corner]

+1

There's a worryingly "normalised" culture in (it seems to me) teens to 30s, which comes across as a self-entitled attitude of "I want but I won't pay for it".

I see it more as people doing what they can get away with rather than what is right.

 

[Wolfie]

I would very much agree with this. A lot of those at the top are the worst- look at the behaviour of those setting the rules during COVID. I think the increased scrutiny of politicians and corporations have revealed often the hypocrisy and so more and more at the bottom are deciding not to play by the rules either!

Agreed. Increasingly many of those at the top at best stick to the letter and not the spirit of the rules and are then praised for being "clever". With those sort of role models it is unsurprising that there are ripple effects through all of society. What is unclear though is whether things are actually worse than they used to be or people just make less effort to conceal misbehaviour.

 

[Dai Corner]

Agreed. Increasingly many of those at the top at best stick to the letter and not the spirit of the rules and are then praised for being "clever". With those sort of role models it is unsurprising that there are ripple effects through all of society. What is unclear though is whether things are actually worse than they used to be or people just make less effort to conceal misbehaviour.

I'd say the latter. A former colleague in a responsible, reasonably well paid job spoke openly about not having to pay if you travelled between unbarriered stations. He seemed to think there was nothing wrong with doing so. I likened it to drinking in a pub with friends but not buying a round and then accepting a lift home but not chipping in to give the driver some some petrol money. Stealing from the taxpayer was different, apparently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say the latter. A former colleague in a responsible, reasonably well paid job spoke openly about not having to pay if you travelled between unbarriered stations. He seemed to think there was nothing wrong with doing so. I likened it to drinking in a pub with friends but not buying a round and then accepting a lift home but not chipping in to give the driver some some petrol money. Stealing from the taxpayer was different, apparently.

There's a different view generally in society between theft (where you take a physical object which you then have and the shop or similar doesn't) and things like fare dodging and software piracy where you're using a service for free but that has no impact on the ability of the service provider to sell that service to someone else. The latter is seen less seriously than the former - and indeed the law sees it less seriously too, with software and music piracy not even being an offence in most cases (they would have to sue you - they sometimes do, particularly with businesses, but it's not criminal) and I think similarly most people would see even a RoRA conviction as much less serious than a theft conviction - the latter can result in prison time, the former mostly won't.

 

[Turtle]

I'm going to stick my head out here and say yes - I do think a more affordable service will help. I think that the social fabric of the UK has massively deteriorated in the past few years which means, not only are people poorer, but angrier. Causing a phenomenon where Britain has a kind of "last days of Rome" feeling to it, where nobody feels much in a way of social obligation to anything. It's not just how people conduct themselves in public, but it's also reflective in the awful service you get from many people-facing roles. No sense of community, no sense of accountability, no sense that anyone cares what they do or not. I've read the disputes page (a reason why I never use e-tickets) and I think most of the people posting were genuinely trying to save money - not dishonest people. I think having a more affordable service will skim off some fare-avoiders, but our society as a whole needs to massively improve.

I partially agree with you. As sustained reading of the disputes thread shows, honest folk are being harshly penalised for attempting to pay their fares by the Railway hiding behind outdated 19th century legislation.
On the other hand if current fares were, say, reduced by 90%(!) there would still be a hard core dishonest contingent trying to evade them. Furthermore, this group includes all elements of society.

 

[Topological]

I partially agree with you. As sustained reading of the disputes thread shows, honest folk are being harshly penalised for attempting to pay their fares by the Railway hiding behind outdated 19th century legislation.
On the other hand if current fares were, say, reduced by 90%(!) there would still be a hard core dishonest contingent trying to evade them. Furthermore, this group includes all elements of society.

I would suggest it is in the way the railways interact with the public that there is room for improvement. Having greater transparency about what fare is valid when, and what actions by a passenger make a fare invalid, would help.

Lowering fares, or improving the service itself, is unlikely to change behaviour.

 

[bramling]

I agree with this.

It's similar to supermarket self checkouts, many people are prepared to organise their own special offers - they see it as cheating the system rather than theft. Of course it isn't but there will always be fare evasion, whatever the level of fares charged.

I get the feeling a lot of people feel “the system” just isn’t working for them at the moment. Hence if one side of the unwritten contract isn’t doing what it should, why should I?

I would very much agree with this. A lot of those at the top are the worst- look at the behaviour of those setting the rules during COVID. I think the increased scrutiny of politicians and corporations have revealed often the hypocrisy and so more and more at the bottom are deciding not to play by the rules either!

Spot on IMO.

 

[renegademaster]

Fare evasion is very rife on London busses , and they are as cheap as you can get

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fare evasion is very rife on London busses , and they are as cheap as you can get

Is it? When I'm on one I usually hear enough "beeps" on boarding for each person walking past the driver.

It takes a higher level of brazenness to walk past a member of staff who is actively interested* in whether you've paid. Some people certainly do, but it's psychologically harder than fare dodging on an ungated DOO train where nobody will even slightly challenge you except random inspections once an eternity.

* To the extent that London bus drivers are actively interested in anything...