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Proposal to decrease minimum train driver age

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irish_rail

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Psychologists express their opinion that the adolescent mind is not at 18 years of age, fully matured, a maturation which can last until the early twenties, psychologists believe the adolescent mind does not fully think through through the connections between risks and consequences of taking risks, and the adolescent mind is prone to emotion-led decision-making over logic. The driving cab is not a workplace to not connect risks and consequences, nor to emotion-led decision making.
Spot on. Most guys I know (myself included) just wouldn't have had the discipline at aged 18 to get out of bed consistently at 3am, or not drink if working the next day, and so on. I think if this comes to pass there will end up being a large drop out rate of people who like the idea of being a train driver but can't cope with the reality. This idea smacks of a Tory government that wants to pay train drivers as little as possible with as few Ts and Cs as possible, and they know an 18 year old is probably more likely to sign up for anything put in front of them.
 
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TurboMan

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The plan was, from what I have heard from our TOC, is that there will be one training school for all TOCs - which will replace the individual initial classroom training done at each TOC. This will cover rules.

Trainees would then go to their own TOC for company specific training such as traction and then handling hours as currently done.
That's been on the cards for a long time - basically since train driver licencing moved to the idea of separate licences and certificates. The idea is that the 'rules' part of the training is overseen by a national train driver academy, at the end of which the trainee is issued their licence by the ORR (the credit card sized plastic thing). Then the trainee does the 'route' and 'traction' parts which results in the paper certificate issued by the TOC. But it relies on 'rules' being the same across the network, when each sectional appendix for each NR route is full of modifications to the rules, and most TOCs/FOCs have their own operational procedures that supplement or modify the rule book.

It's also based on the longstanding model of training delivery of 'rules' then 'traction' then 'routes' which is somewhat outdated - a task-based approach would be far more effective.
 

Kuksoolgirl

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My first thoughts are this is the way for the government to get the train driver wage down, I'm sure whatever programme comes out of this will come with a much lower salary than currently offered.

Let's face it, an 18 year old fresh out of college or six form is offered a place on this programme and the salary is 30k, leaving school they will lap it up.

The impending retirement and shortage of drivers across the industry is a self inflicted policy decision.

As mentioned throughout this thread there is no lack of talent waiting to apply or even worse sitting in a talent pool watching psychometric test scores expire...
You would think the time and resources involved that the reserve pool would be a more proactive (on TOCs behalf) opportunity eg communication to candidate, possible extension etc. All /or part of the tests/interviews done, then it ends up coming to nothing. I was in reserve pool for driver before covid, and it got extended for just over a year ....obviously special circumstances. Now 1 month into reserve pool for conductor, and also in process for driver again. Just hope another recruitment drive doesn't unexpectedly pop up.
 

Grvrdvicdr

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This was the case when I did mine 20+ years ago!


Whilst the youngest train driver in the country some years ago, was 18 (on London Underground), I bet there aren't, and haven't been, many 18-20 year olds driving tube trains.

Also, young people who want to join the railway can do so in other roles, and then can get used to (and demonstrate!) working shifts and following instructions and rules. When I started my driver training, the youngest person had been a Shunter previously.




ASLEF's higher-ups joined the railway at 16 as Traction Trainees, then progressed to Secondmen, then Drivers. They believe in Employer Justified Retirement Age (EJRA) whereby whatever is going on in your personal life with regard to finances, however good your medical fitness, or however much you love your job and would like to carry on, you MUST retire so as to give a young person your job.
Even though that's not how it works. Plenty of drivers have had other jobs previously and joined the railway later on in life, and sometimes could do with a couple of extra years of good wages and pension contributions.
ASLEF agreeing to drivers being 18 is the leadership harking back to the 'good old days' and is part of their idealism fantasy in my opinion.







Indeed!





I wasn't mature enough at 21 and am glad I was 25 by the time I landed the job.
I managed to get myself on an apprenticeship at 16 with the railway. Started my driver training at 21, but I can say if I didn’t have the years experience behind me I wouldn’t have been able to answer the MMI or DMI questions
 

choochoochoo

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Possibly the training school would produce someone competent on rules, and even traction knowledge (courses could be adapted to suite needs) then the handling would still be done when the candidate finds a job at a toc.

However, there would also be the potential for the training schools to produce more drivers then they are vacancies, with no guaranteed jobs at the end and the need to apply for jobs in parts of the country where you don’t live.
Exactly this. If theses schools start spewing out more drivers than there are jobs for, then the pay / terms and conditions will start to degrade as candidates take whatever they can get.
 

bramling

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Based on some of those who get through initial recruitment, but then fail to make the grade at a later stage, there’s definitely still an issue around selecting the right candidates from the multitudes who apply.

Inevitably small recruitment teams have their work cut out and this proposed change would only add to the numbers they have to whittle down. I gather they’re also consulting on raising the maximum number of attempts at the aptitude tests, which will increase numbers of potentially weaker applicants still further.

It’s difficult to see what the point of these proposals is (beyond my cynical suggestions above :)) and I wonder whether they’ve been thought through at all.

Agree with the above.

In general terms I’m in two minds. There are certainly young people who would make excellent drivers. There are also some who will be absolutely awful, just like at any age group (either in terms of ability, and/or attitude). However my concern is there’s a cohort in the middle who might make good drivers once they’ve matured a little, but in earlier years will be a problem, lacking the maturity that exposure to adult life brings.

How are we going to ensure that this middle group don’t end up in the grade too soon; and end up being either a problem or a liability, or at the very least waste a lot of scarce training resource that could be directed elsewhere? In essence, where is there the opportunity for them to demonstrate competence, maturity, good judgement (etc etc etc) in a working environment? Currently anyone wanting to go down the driver route can demonstrate themselves in other roles, like station staff, guard, or even working a refreshment trolley. Even basic stuff like attendance, timekeeping, et cetera.

I can envisage a lot of “look at me I’m a train driver on 70k” tags on Facebook, as plenty of people will be attracted by the money. Those that *really* want to do it won’t be put off by having to spend a couple of years in another role first, and would then of course will have already learned a bit about the railway which then stands them in good stead.

In short, whilst I don’t doubt there’s some people for whom this would work well, I’m quite sure there’s a larger number for whom this would prove to be a problem. And I suspect it may well be a significantly larger proportion that fall into this second group, which would make the whole thing far more trouble than it’s worth.

In fact, it could be entirely counter-productive as we could end up seeing a load of youngsters come crashing out for whatever reasons (not getting through the training, not passing probation due to behavioural issues, having incidents, etc) who might actually have been very good drivers a few years down the road.

But what do we know, driving a train is just pressing go / stop isn’t it? ;)
 
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AverageJoe

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One of the most difficult parts of this job is making the decisions outside of work that make you fit for work.

Saying no to parties, nights out, bbqs is gonna be harder for an 18 year old with 60k in his pocket living with mum and dad than it will be for a 40 year old with a house, wife and 2 kids.

Also I don’t know a single 18 year old that can go more than 10 minutes without looking at their phone :D

I’m sure there are some very sensible 18 year olds out there but I think this idea would cause more problems than it solves.
 

John745

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I mean as a person who would definitely love to be a train driver, and as a person who doesn't really go to/enjoy parties I'm sure this is a win-win for me 8-)
 

ComUtoR

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I mean as a person who would definitely love to be a train driver, and as a person who doesn't really go to/enjoy parties I'm sure this is a win-win for me 8-)

It's probably gonna be in by the end of the Summer. Probably just after Exam results :/
 

Bishopstone

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One of the most difficult parts of this job is making the decisions outside of work that make you fit for work.

Saying no to parties, nights out, bbqs is gonna be harder for an 18 year old with 60k in his pocket living with mum and dad than it will be for a 40 year old with a house, wife and 2 kids.

Also I don’t know a single 18 year old that can go more than 10 minutes without looking at their phone :D

I’m sure there are some very sensible 18 year olds out there but I think this idea would cause more problems than it solves.

Presumably the recruitment processes will identify the sensible 18yos of your paragraph 4, and discard the party animals of your paragraph 2, should they even bother applying for a shift work job. I had no interest in partying at age 18, or now, and there must be plenty of young social introverts around who could manage without barbeques.

Regarding phones, everybody under 60 in my circle is a compulsive phone checker, but generally they're banned in schools so it could be said that 18yo will find it easier to adapt to the discipline of 'phones off and in the bag', than a 40yo who's been working mostly from home for 4 years.
 

Cestrian21

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If there's one thing I've learned from looking at the graph in the government document, it's that train driving is mostly an upper-middle-aged profession. I should first prelude what I'm about to say with a disclaimer that my maths may not be on point, but adding up the numbers on the graph (specifically the train drivers above the age of 40) and comparing it to the total number of train drivers listed (23,819), I worked out that 76.8% of train drivers are over 40 years old. I understand that some degree of life experience is valued, particularly in the areas relating to working alone, acting in emergency situations, and concentrating for a long period of time, all things which are much more likely to be attained with age compared to coming straight out of school, but if my maths is correct then surely it would now be in the industry's interest to start leaning towards younger talent at this point?

For full reference, here's a screenshot of the graph I was talking about below:

View attachment 158229
As intersting as that graph is, I think one showing the age profile of new train drivers would be far more relevant.

Is the current age imbalance a result of insufficient recruitment, resulting an aging workforce? Or is it a result of the recruitment process consistently attracting/favouring older candidates, leading to higher average age? If the latter then reducing the minimum age may be of some benefit, if the former then it does nothing to address the issue.

The consultation document is silent in this regard, which would suggest to me that they haven't checked and all of this is, at best, window dressing, at worst part of a much broader agenda.
 

43066

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ASLEF's higher-ups joined the railway at 16 as Traction Trainees, then progressed to Secondmen, then Drivers. They believe in Employer Justified Retirement Age (EJRA) whereby whatever is going on in your personal life with regard to finances, however good your medical fitness, or however much you love your job and would like to carry on, you MUST retire so as to give a young person your job.
Even though that's not how it works. Plenty of drivers have had other jobs previously and joined the railway later on in life, and sometimes could do with a couple of extra years of good wages and pension contributions.
ASLEF agreeing to drivers being 18 is the leadership harking back to the 'good old days' and is part of their idealism fantasy in my opinion.

I completely agree. It’s frankly outrageous in 2024 that the union representing drivers wants older drivers, who include some of its longest standing members, to be directly discriminated against on the grounds of age.
 

ComUtoR

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I completely agree. It’s frankly outrageous in 2024 that the union representing drivers wants older drivers, who include some of its longest standing members, to be directly discriminated against on the grounds of age.

Maybe that's been the plan all along.

Introduce the EJRA to push out all the dinosaurs, complain about a generational gap in recruitment, lower the entry age, introduce modern recruitment practices (removal of MMI, gamification of training, etc), apprenticeships and other pay to play qualifications...

Na, I'm not THAT cynical...
 

Busyboy89

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There will be good and bad drivers what ever the recruiting process is.

Do I agree with 18 year olds driving, I wasn’t ready at 18 but many are, so it’s a hard to gauge.

I think it’s all money motivated. Younger longer apprenticeships mean lower wages in the earlier years (even more than some tocs have now)

Not only this but If the government run the academies they could minimise union interference or control qualified driver numbers which in turn will affect wages as there will be a surplus of drivers.

At the minute companies only seem to recruit when needed (I know some have talent pools but these are topped up as needed to the cost of the company) but this keeps the driver grade a bit of niche market which in turn keeps our money increasing. If there’s a unlimited surplus of fresh qualified drivers then, as been said before, we will be going down the ‘pilot contract’ way so the company can increase/decrease number of drivers at the drop of a hat
 

AverageJoe

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Will be interesting to see what happens.
I know pilots pay a lot to get their licence but I don’t think it’s a good comparison.

A long career as a pilot is far more glamorous and rewarding than being a train driver.

Start early enough and you can end up as a captain on a long haul flight earning multiple hundreds of thousands per year.
Add to that the ability to travel worldwide for free.

If the goal is to get the driver grade wages down i wonder how many would still be interested once they have realised what the shifts are like.
 

43066

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Maybe that's been the plan all along.

Introduce the EJRA to push out all the dinosaurs, complain about a generational gap in recruitment, lower the entry age, introduce modern recruitment practices (removal of MMI, gamification of training, etc), apprenticeships and other pay to play qualifications...

Na, I'm not THAT cynical...

Ha - I share your cynicism. As I noted upthread, with the current government in charge, there's always a need to look for motivations beyond the flannel put out to the media.


Will be interesting to see what happens.
I know pilots pay a lot to get their licence but I don’t think it’s a good comparison.

A long career as a pilot is far more glamorous and rewarding than being a train driver.

Start early enough and you can end up as a captain on a long haul flight earning multiple hundreds of thousands per year.
Add to that the ability to travel worldwide for free.

If the goal is to get the driver grade wages down i wonder how many would still be interested once they have realised what the shifts are like.

More financially rewarding for sure, especially if you make captain at a decent airline. Not all do, though. I know two pilots very well, one is a captain for large uk charter airline, the other is an FO for a large orange LoCo, neither would say it’s remotely glamorous these days. Massive sacrifice, risk and financial commitment (including living abroad for years, as both pilots mentioned above had to do) in order to get there. All sacrifices which prospective train drivers are not (yet) required to make.

Their shift patterns can be as bad if not worse, EASA hasn’t helped matters in this regard (if you know anything about aviation you’ll know what that has meant).
 
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choochoochoo

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Ha - I share your cynicism. As I noted upthread, with the current government in charge, there's always a need to look for motivations beyond the flannel put out to the media.




More financially rewarding for sure, if you make captain at a decent airline. Not all do, though. I know two pilots very well, one is a captain for large uk charter airline, the other is an FO for a large orange LoCo, neither would say it’s remotely glamorous these days. Massive sacrifice, risk and financial commitment (including living abroad for years, as both pilots mentioned above had to do) in order to get there. All sacrifices which prospective train drivers are not (yet) required to make.

Their shift patterns can be as bad if not worse, EASA hasn’t helped matters in this regard (if you know anything about aviation you’ll know what that has meant).
The pilots I know also would rather have my train driving life more than I'd want their plane flying life.
 

Economist

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Regarding the references to pilots and merchant marine officers, whilst these roles have a very high level of responsibility, they're not in charge from the day they qualify. Train Drivers are in charge from the first day they're qualified, it's not like a qualified train driver's promotion to a command role can be put back because they're not yet ready. A big challenge today is that school is very academic, it certainly took me a few years after leaving school to gain the experience of things like decision making and plain old common sense to be ready for train driving.

That said, I'm tempted by a move to the flight deck, there's no doubt some pilots who would probably consider me mad but I don't want to get to retirement age having not given it a good go. I greatly enjoy train driving and it's not a given I'd get back in if it didn't work out, a real conumdrum.
 

BayPaul

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Regarding the references to pilots and merchant marine officers, whilst these roles have a very high level of responsibility, they're not in charge from the day they qualify. Train Drivers are in charge from the first day they're qualified, it's not like a qualified train driver's promotion to a command role can be put back because they're not yet ready. A big challenge today is that school is very academic, it certainly took me a few years after leaving school to gain the experience of things like decision making and plain old common sense to be ready for train driving.

That said, I'm tempted by a move to the flight deck, there's no doubt some pilots who would probably consider me mad but I don't want to get to retirement age having not given it a good go. I greatly enjoy train driving and it's not a given I'd get back in if it didn't work out, a real conumdrum.
You'd be surprised. A newly qualified OOW on a ship is in charge of his or her watch, and will often be the only officer awake onboard on a night shift. Yes, the Captain is on board, and can be called, but the OOW has plenty of opportunity to screw things up in the meantime!
Or if you look at smaller vessels, a newly qualified Boatmaster could easily be in sole charge of a 250 passenger ferry, with no one to call.
 

Train_manager

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That's been on the cards for a long time - basically since train driver licencing moved to the idea of separate licences and certificates. The idea is that the 'rules' part of the training is overseen by a national train driver academy, at the end of which the trainee is issued their licence by the ORR (the credit card sized plastic thing). Then the trainee does the 'route' and 'traction' parts which results in the paper certificate issued by the TOC. But it relies on 'rules' being the same across the network, when each sectional appendix for each NR route is full of modifications to the rules, and most TOCs/FOCs have their own operational procedures that supplement or modify the rule book.

It's also based on the longstanding model of training delivery of 'rules' then 'traction' then 'routes' which is somewhat outdated - a task-based approach would be far more effective.
This business model as been tried and failed to take off. It's was by a company called "SLC" based in the West Midlands.

Thankfully ASLEF put a stop to that!!

They are now called rail adventure group.
 
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TurboMan

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This business model as been tried and failed to take off. It's was by a company called "SLD" based in the West Midlands.

Thankfully ASLEF put a stop to that!!

They are now called rail adventure group.
I think you mean SLC Operations. They did provide driver training, but not as part of the RDG driver academy which is what I was referring to. They also did a lot of training on class 230 & 484 for Vivarail. The company was bought out by the German company Rail Adventure who (as I understand it) didn't want to be involved in training, so that side of the business fell by the wayside.
 

Train_manager

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I think you mean SLC Operations. They did provide driver training, but not as part of the RDG driver academy which is what I was referring to. They also did a lot of training on class 230 & 484 for Vivarail. The company was bought out by the German company Rail Adventure who (as I understand it) didn't want to be involved in training, so that side of the business fell by the wayside.
Thanks for the correction.

I've corrected my post. Yes it was SLC about 5 years ago I believe.
 

Efini92

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If there's one thing I've learned from looking at the graph in the government document, it's that train driving is mostly an upper-middle-aged profession. I should first prelude what I'm about to say with a disclaimer that my maths may not be on point, but adding up the numbers on the graph (specifically the train drivers above the age of 40) and comparing it to the total number of train drivers listed (23,819), I worked out that 76.8% of train drivers are over 40 years old. I understand that some degree of life experience is valued, particularly in the areas relating to working alone, acting in emergency situations, and concentrating for a long period of time, all things which are much more likely to be attained with age compared to coming straight out of school, but if my maths is correct then surely it would now be in the industry's interest to start leaning towards younger talent at this point?

For full reference, here's a screenshot of the graph I was talking about below:

View attachment 158229
What we need to know in those figures is how long they have been driving.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 75% of the 50-60 bracket started their driving careers at 16-20.
 

43066

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They would not have started as drivers at that age!

They would have started in the driving grade.

A couple of days ago I was speaking to one of our (almost) 50 year men. He just genuinely enjoys driving trains, so keeps on showing up, to do his 50.

A few years in myself now, I can see what he means. Moments like that, you remember it’s not all bad in this industry, is it? :)
 

Sorcerer

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What we need to know in those figures is how long they have been driving.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 75% of the 50-60 bracket started their driving careers at 16-20.
If that's the case then the industry did well to retain staff for such a long period of time, but even so I do still think the industry should focus on aiming to get younger drivers in order to sustain a reasonable number over the years.

I do admittedly doubt that many 18 year olds will meet the grade, because it's highly unlikely they will have the experiences needed for the role and also because of the sacrifices to social life.

Even for when I first applied at 26 having done courses in DT and engineering which involved following safety rules (such as wearing goggles or steel-toe-capped boots in a bike workshop) and using dangerous machinery that could cause injury (such as sanding machines)

I still was not so sure it would be satisfactory for a CBI/MMI.

But mid-20s to early 30s doesn't seem too unreasonable to start as a driver, since you can still get 30 years out of your career.
 
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InkyScrolls

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A couple of days ago I was speaking to one of our (almost) 50 year men. He just genuinely enjoys driving trains, so keeps on showing up, to do his 50.
There's a couple of drivers at over forty years at my depot, none at fifty though. What a wealth of knowledge and experience such drivers are - it has been a real pleasure to work alongside some of last 'true' BR men.
A few years in myself now, I can see what he means. Moments like that, you remember it’s not all bad in this industry, is it? :)
Absolutely!
 

Efini92

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A couple of days ago I was speaking to one of our (almost) 50 year men. He just genuinely enjoys driving trains, so keeps on showing up, to do his 50.

A few years in myself now, I can see what he means. Moments like that, you remember it’s not all bad in this industry, is it? :)
Sadly seeing people get the 50 year medallion whilst still working will probably become a thing of the past.
No it’s not all bad at all, I love driving trains. Before all this political stuff kicked off it was a great job, I live in the belief/hope we will have the status quo returned.

If that's the case then the industry did well to retain staff for such a long period of time, but even so I do still think the industry should focus on aiming to get younger drivers in order to sustain a reasonable number over the years. I do admittedly doubt that many 18 year olds will meet the grade because it's highly unlikely they will have the experiences needed for the role and also because of the sacrifices to social life. Even for when I first applied at 26 having done courses in DT and engineering which involved following safety rules (such as wearing goggles or steel-toe-capped boots in a bike workshop) and using dangerous machinery that could cause injury (such as sanding machines) I still was not so sure it would be satisfactory for a CBI/MMI. But mid-20s to early 30s doesn't seem too unreasonable to start as a driver since you can still get 30 years out of your career.
From what I’ve seen in the last few years trainee drivers have been getting younger. There’s loads now under 25.
The damage was done when recruiting for the millennium drivers. Most were second career, in their 30’s, which was the same age as the BR drivers from the 70’s and 80’s. Fast forward 20 years and now the percentage that’s ready for retirement is much higher than it would’ve normally been.
 
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