"Paddington has its own rules" - but what are they?

[DeverseSam]

That would be legal - but quite apart from any possible objections on the grounds of it being unfair on the member of staff to do so, it would be largely pointless. GWR management have been reminded on many occasions that their staff are getting it wrong and evidently don't think it's a significant enough issue to warrant proper training.

Thank you. I am also thinking how many views on X would it need to get before that individual guard was retrained more effectively

 

[BrianW]

That would be legal - but quite apart from any possible objections on the grounds of it being unfair on the member of staff to do so, it would be largely pointless. GWR management have been reminded on many occasions that their staff are getting it wrong and evidently don't think it's a significant enough issue to warrant proper training.

A depressing thread- 'the customer must be wrong'. I appreciate the points about the need for and lack of staff training. Customers are untrained and should not be expected or required to be 'in the know' about 'restrictions' and how they may or may not apply to them and this or that ticket at this time. They were sold the ticket and allowed through the gate and onto the train. 'Thank you sir/ madam. Nearly there now. Hope you've enjoyed your journey.'

 

[Wallsendmag]

Roll on TfL accepting barcodes and Train Managers not spouting rubbish after scanning the ticket proves it is valid

 

[AndyPJG]

I think that's the thing. The mentality needs to be "if in any doubt or if the passenger questions what you're saying, look it up and show them".

or just give the benefit of the doubt surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

or just give the benefit of the doubt surely?

The issue with giving the benefit of the doubt is that plenty of people are trying it on when they know full well it isn't valid. Checking if challenged is the sensible way.

 

[AdamWW]

I think that's the thing. The mentality needs to be "if in any doubt or if the passenger questions what you're saying, look it up and show them".

The problem with that is of course when, as in the original post, they look the wrong thing up and claim that it supports their view.

Another one I just can't understand is the view that when a passenger is travelling on the itinerary their ticket was purchased with, if there is a problem with that it's somehow the passenger's fault for having been sold the wrong ticket.

By all means report it if you think people are being sold the wrong ticket, but I'd like to think it wouldn't need special training to know not to attempt to punish a passenger because another part of the industry made a mistake.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2024 ==

The issue with giving the benefit of the doubt is that plenty of people are trying it on when they know full well it isn't valid. Checking if challenged is the sensible way.

Of course what you can do is refuse it outright then when the passenger puts in a complaint, lie through your teeth and say that you asked them to wait while you checked it but they refused to do so.

Not that that ever happened to me...

 

[nitten_travell]

I've thought a little more about the conversation I had with the guard (which I described in my original post as "going round in circles").
It went something like this (again, not verbatim but you get the gist):

"The restrictions website printed on the ticket does not mention Paddington at all [points at screen on laptop]"
"But, where did you board the train?"
"Paddington"
"And Paddington has its own rules..."
"Which is fine, but why are they not on this website? The one that is printed on my ticket"
"...and since you boarded at Paddington those rules [no super off peak] apply to this train, it's meant for use at quieter times..."
"But I started the day in Scotland and bought the ticket at the station. It's not my fault that I arrived in Paddington in the afternoon, surely I am not expected to wait for 3 hours?"
"... I'll show you [gets out hand held device]"

etc etc

Unfortunately I will have to make the same journey again three or four times over the summer. It seems my options are:

1. Take the stopper from Paddington to Didcot Parkway (I think no restrictions on the stopper?) and watch as the fast service sails past.
2. Book a ticket on GWR's site and stick to the itinerary, which does not necessarily allow me time for lunch in London. Also defeats the point of an open ticket. But essentially impossible for the guard to say that a ticket sold by their own employer for that service is invalid.
3. Get a seat at the front of the train and hope that I get to Didcot Parkway before the guard gets to my carriage.
4. Stand my ground as yesterday, armed with the NRE restrictions page again.

 

[12C]

Unfortunately I will have to make the same journey again three or four times over the summer. It seems my options are:

1. Take the stopper from Paddington to Didcot Parkway (I think no restrictions on the stopper?) and watch as the fast service sails past.
2. Book a ticket on GWR's site and stick to the itinerary, which does not necessarily allow me time for lunch in London. Also defeats the point of an open ticket. But essentially impossible for the guard to say that a ticket sold by their own employer for that service is invalid.
3. Get a seat at the front of the train and hope that I get to Didcot Parkway before the guard gets to my carriage.
4. Stand my ground as yesterday, armed with the NRE restrictions page again.

Personally I would be tempted to write to GWR customer services complaining about the incident, and refer to the facts stated on the NRE website. Explain that need to make the journey again in the future and would like them to clarify that your ticket was indeed valid. Then hopefully you could bring the response with you to show to the ticket inspector.

 

[AdamWW]

But essentially impossible for the guard to say that a ticket sold by their own employer for that service is invalid.

You'd think, but (not on GWR) I was told exactly that by a guard.

(Who was going down the carriage excessing people with perfectly valid tickets but didn't manage it with me).

 

[gravitystorm]

Unfortunately I will have to make the same journey again three or four times over the summer. It seems my options are:

1. Take the stopper from Paddington to Didcot Parkway (I think no restrictions on the stopper?) and watch as the fast service sails past.
2. Book a ticket on GWR's site and stick to the itinerary, which does not necessarily allow me time for lunch in London. Also defeats the point of an open ticket. But essentially impossible for the guard to say that a ticket sold by their own employer for that service is invalid.
3. Get a seat at the front of the train and hope that I get to Didcot Parkway before the guard gets to my carriage.
4. Stand my ground as yesterday, armed with the NRE restrictions page again.

Last time I travelled from Paddington on a Motspur Park to Didcot ticket, I heard the ticket-validity announcements and went and found the Guard. He was very happy to explain that because we'd started our journey in an off-peak direction (towards Waterloo, then underground to Paddington) that everything was perfectly fine. He also pointed out that we hadn't actually printed out our tickets (we're so used to online purchases being e-tickets now that we made that mistake), but he took some of his time to print them out for us too, so we could get through the barriers at Didcot and avoid any hassles there (which I now realise could have been severe).

So there's a good chance you'll run into a different GWR guard, who might go out of their way to be helpful, like the one I encountered. They aren't all bad.

 

[furlong]

I wouldn't mess around with GWR's own tediously slow customer services.

(a) Report the incident to the ORR, copied to GWR's MD, pointing out that on the face of it it's an actual breach of the consumer regulations, that anecdotally you are hearing that it was not an isolated incident and inviting the ORR to instigate an investigation into whether the company is routinely overcharging or taking actions that may have the effect of persuading particular types of consumers to pay for tickets that are more expensive than necessary.

(b) Report the matter to the DfT, copied to GWR's MD and your MP, as a potential breach of the company's duty to carry any passenger in possession of a valid ticket. (Ref. "The Obligation to Carry" in the TSA.) As travel wasn't actually denied, this is not an actual breach.

An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

 

[nitten_travell]

Personally I would be tempted to write to GWR customer services complaining about the incident, and refer to the facts stated on the NRE website. Explain that need to make the journey again in the future and would like them to clarify that your ticket was indeed valid. Then hopefully you could bring the response with you to show to the ticket inspector.

I've done this, the beautiful irony is that / is a special character and not allowed in GWR's form so I can't actually write in the web address printed on the ticket, but I have uploaded a photograph.

Last time I travelled from Paddington on a Motspur Park to Didcot ticket, I heard the ticket-validity announcements and went and found the Guard. He was very happy to explain that because we'd started our journey in an off-peak direction (towards Waterloo, then underground to Paddington) that everything was perfectly fine. He also pointed out that we hadn't actually printed out our tickets (we're so used to online purchases being e-tickets now that we made that mistake), but he took some of his time to print them out for us too, so we could get through the barriers at Didcot and avoid any hassles there (which I now realise could have been severe).

So there's a good chance you'll run into a different GWR guard, who might go out of their way to be helpful, like the one I encountered. They aren't all bad.

Indeed and I hope so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2024 ==

I wouldn't mess around with GWR's own tediously slow customer services.

(a) Report the incident to the ORR, copied to GWR's MD, pointing out that on the face of it it's an actual breach of the consumer regulations, that anecdotally you are hearing that it was not an isolated incident and inviting the ORR to instigate an investigation into whether the company is routinely overcharging or taking actions that may have the effect of persuading particular types of consumers to pay for tickets that are more expensive than necessary.

(b) Report the matter to the DfT, copied to GWR's MD and your MP, as a potential breach of the company's duty to carry any passenger in possession of a valid ticket. (Ref. "The Obligation to Carry" in the TSA.) As travel wasn't actually denied, this is not an actual breach.

I'm not sure this is necessary in this instance. I was not asked to pay for an additional or alternative ticket since the train arrived at Didcot Parkway mid-discussion. Might be a different story had I actually spent any extra money.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The web address isn’t important the restriction part is.

 

[yorkie]

I've thought a little more about the conversation I had with the guard (which I described in my original post as "going round in circles").
It went something like this (again, not verbatim but you get the gist):

"The restrictions website printed on the ticket does not mention Paddington at all [points at screen on laptop]"
"But, where did you board the train?"
"Paddington"
"And Paddington has its own rules..."
"Which is fine, but why are they not on this website? The one that is printed on my ticket"
"...and since you boarded at Paddington those rules [no super off peak] apply to this train, it's meant for use at quieter times..."
"But I started the day in Scotland and bought the ticket at the station. It's not my fault that I arrived in Paddington in the afternoon, surely I am not expected to wait for 3 hours?"
"... I'll show you [gets out hand held device]"

etc etc

Unfortunately I will have to make the same journey again three or four times over the summer. It seems my options are:

1. Take the stopper from Paddington to Didcot Parkway (I think no restrictions on the stopper?) and watch as the fast service sails past.
2. Book a ticket on GWR's site and stick to the itinerary, which does not necessarily allow me time for lunch in London. Also defeats the point of an open ticket. But essentially impossible for the guard to say that a ticket sold by their own employer for that service is invalid.
3. Get a seat at the front of the train and hope that I get to Didcot Parkway before the guard gets to my carriage.
4. Stand my ground as yesterday, armed with the NRE restrictions page again.

Or

5. Book using the forum's site, generate the exact itinerary you want (using our advanced options, if required); when told your ticket isn't valid, pay up; write to GWR to obtain a refund, compensation and report the matter to the ORR. Also let us know the details of the incident and your GWR reference number.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2024 ==

You'd think, but (not on GWR) I was told exactly that by a guard.

(Who was going down the carriage excessing people with perfectly valid tickets but didn't manage it with me).

Again, this needs to be reported.

There are some Guards who have a policy of 'my train, my rules' and that culture needs to be wiped out.

 

[nitten_travell]

A coda to this (until GWR reply to my email to CS anyway) is that Didcot Parkway station this morning was very busy with people going to the Bolton v Oxford playoff at Wembley.
An announcement: the slower 1038 to Paddington is likely to be much quieter than the fast trains for anyone who would like a seat. Virtually no football fans took it. I did and had a table to myself the whole way.

I wonder if the stopper is the way forward generally between London and Didcot if time is not urgent as it was most pleasant compared to the sardine can I experienced on Thursday!

 

[185143]

I used the same ticket type from Aberdeen to Penzance last year. Saw the board claiming "GWR Super off peak tickets not valid, off peak tickets not valid until Newton Abbot" which for tickets with the origin of London Terminals was completely correct IIRC.

Was quite glad to see my train departing from an unbarriered platform, having not seen a bed for two days and having just endured a rough crossing on the Northlink ferry back from Lerwick to Aberdeen I certainly was not in the mood for an argument.

Obviously had no issues boarding the train, the TM was presumably Exeter or Plymouth based by his accent. The only comment the ticket got was "bloody hell you've had a long day!" And asked what time I'd left Aberdeen, in conversation as opposed to anything else. But to come full back on topic, the fact that I was pleasantly surprised to have my valid ticket accepted without issue is a sad reflection on things.

 

[nitten_travell]

I used the same ticket type from Aberdeen to Penzance last year. Saw the board claiming "GWR Super off peak tickets not valid, off peak tickets not valid until Newton Abbot" which for tickets with the origin of London Terminals was completely correct IIRC.

Was quite glad to see my train departing from an unbarriered platform, having not seen a bed for two days and having just endured a rough crossing on the Northlink ferry back from Lerwick to Aberdeen I certainly was not in the mood for an argument.

Obviously had no issues boarding the train, the TM was presumably Exeter or Plymouth based by his accent. The only comment the ticket got was "bloody hell you've had a long day!" And asked what time I'd left Aberdeen, in conversation as opposed to anything else. But to come full back on topic, the fact that I was pleasantly surprised to have my valid ticket accepted without issue is a sad reflection on things.

Which is sort of the exit I was hoping the guard would take when faced with the ticket validity evidence on NRE. Your experience possibly aided by your origin being Aberdeen - maybe if it had been, oh I don't know, Keith, the story might have been a bit different. As might mine have been had I started at Waverley and not the station in the village where I live.

And that is a long day! You didn't fancy going the whole sleepless night hog and taking the Night Riviera? You'd have been a prime candidate for the old Cross Country service, I am not sure it runs any more from Aberdeen to Penzance.

 

[yorkie]

You'd have been a prime candidate for the old Cross Country service, I am not sure it runs any more from Aberdeen to Penzance.

Yes; see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/search/4654022/?q=aberdeen+penzance&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

 

[185143]

Which is sort of the exit I was hoping the guard would take when faced with the ticket validity evidence on NRE. Your experience possibly aided by your origin being Aberdeen - maybe if it had been, oh I don't know, Keith, the story might have been a bit different. As might mine have been had I started at Waverley and not the station in the village where I live.

And that is a long day! You didn't fancy going the whole sleepless night hog and taking the Night Riviera? You'd have been a prime candidate for the old Cross Country service, I am not sure it runs any more from Aberdeen to Penzance.

It does. I was supposed to be on it, but the ferry was late so I missed it!

Given I'd spent the previous two nights on the Northlink ferry without a cabin, and had a hotel booking in Penzance, plus having made the mistake of the Night Rivera seats before... no. No I most definitely did not!

 

[nitten_travell]

It does. I was supposed to be on it, but the ferry was late so I missed it!

Given I'd spent the previous two nights on the Northlink ferry without a cabin, and had a hotel booking in Penzance, plus having made the mistake of the Night Rivera seats before... no. No I most definitely did not!

Given that if one flies from Westray to Papa Westray one receives a certificate for being on the shortest flight in the world, perhaps a medal ought to be minted for you hardy folk willing to travel from Aberdeen to Penzance in one go!

 

[Adam Williams]

Book using the forum's site

I would second your advice, but also note that in these particular cases with this TOC you can just contact Raileasy's customer services and ask them to take this up with GWR on your behalf. This is likely to be much less frustrating and the person who deals with the problem will a) know what a restriction code is and b) will also know about the existence of the electronic restrictions that drive journey planners.

This happens so often that Raileasy now has an established internal protocol for dealing with GWR restriction issues and getting customers compensated by discussing directly with their management team (who on the whole are good at resolving these problems, I just wish they wouldn't arise in the first place).

 

[Hadders]

This happens so often that Raileasy now has an established internal protocol for dealing with GWR restriction issues and getting customers compensated by discussing directly with their management team (who on the whole are good at resolving these problems, I just wish they wouldn't arise in the first place).

If it happens so frequently that Raileasy has a protocol, and GWR management team are good at resolving the issues, you have to wonder why GWR management doesn't just get the staff at Paddington trained properly.

It's not that hard to train people. Perhaps the forum should offer to run some training sessions for them....

 

[Kilopylae]

Paddington "has its own rules" in that off-peak tickets issued from London Terminals to stations that GWR serve often have a restriction code whose text bars most fast trains in the evening peak.

As your ticket didn't have an origin in London or the NSE area and thus had a different restriction code of 1K, Paddington's "own rules" do not apply. The restriction code for a London to Didcot ticket is irrelevant. This is basic knowledge that anyone checking tickets should know.

GWR staff seem to have quite a systematic and specific problem with thinking that restrictions apply to trains rather than tickets, hence the notion that there are rules which apply to fast trains out of London Paddington that are found at the restrictions page for "London Terminals to X".

 

[island]

If it happens so frequently that Raileasy has a protocol, and GWR management team are good at resolving the issues, you have to wonder why GWR management doesn't just get the staff at Paddington trained properly.

It's not that hard to train people. Perhaps the forum should offer to run some training sessions for them....

I suggest the likely reason is that the Paddington staff are set in their ways and do not have any interest in being trained, because they've "been doing their job for X years and know what they're doing".

One of the consequences of a heavily unionized workforce is that where this type of attitude becomes embedded it is very hard to crack, because moving staff on is close to impossible.

 

[redreni]

Paddington "has its own rules" in that off-peak tickets issued from London Terminals to stations that GWR serve often have a restriction code whose text bars most fast trains in the evening peak.

As your ticket didn't have an origin in London or the NSE area and thus had a different restriction code of 1K, Paddington's "own rules" do not apply. The restriction code for a London to Didcot ticket is irrelevant. This is basic knowledge that anyone checking tickets should know.

As anyone familiar with Paddington in the early evening will know, the failure to understand that different tickets have different evening peak restrictions is not limited to individual members of staff.

The gateline staff, in particular, are working in an environment where the phrase "would customers please note that off-peak and super off-peak tickets are not valid on this service" bellows out of the public address system and reverberates around the concourse, and around the skulls of everyone present, every time one of the trains barred by the restrictions that apply to off-peak and super off-peak tickets issued from London Terminals to GWR destinations (as well as from and to lots of other origins and destinations, but by no means all), is announced.

 

[theironroad]

Hi all,

I'm enjoying a drink at the pub just opposite Didcot Parkway and reflecting on my interaction with the GWR guard on the 1600 from Paddington.

I bought a Super Off Peak Single from Newtongrange station ticket machine this morning. When I did so machine told me of the restrictions on the ticket (nre.co.uk/1K, basically restrictions on arrival into London; my departure time rendered them moot), valid Any Permitted route, so I went off on my way to Waverley, then Kings Cross, then Paddington.

The ticket would not work the barrier at Paddington but I was allowed through by the person on the gate. I got on the train, found a seat etc, and heard an announcement that Super Off-Peak tickets were not valid. So I checked nre.co.uk/1K again, no mention of this at all.

Shortly before arriving at Didcot Parkway my ticket was checked and I was told it was not valid because it's Super Off-Peak, an announcement was made etc etc. I showed the guard the 1K webpage, which was countered with "Well, Paddington has its own rules, let me show you" before pulling up something on the handheld thing which showed that London-Didcot Parkway Off Peak was not valid on that service. "Fine", I said, "but I didn't start in London I started in Scotland this morning, why does the website printed on my ticket not mention Paddington's Rules at all?" and we went round in circles for a bit until the train actually got to Didcot Parkway and I was let off.

I checked with the ticket office at Didcot Parkway who confirmed that all was in order and my ticket was valid (and sold me my ticket for the opposite journey, on Saturday, no worries about peak/offpeak).

My question is, what are these Paddington Rules and are they printed anywhere? I am aware that the staff at the gateline can be a law unto themselves but I'd have expected the information on the NRE site to be accepted by the on-train staff, regardless of what their device actually told them.

Might have missed it in the replies, but did the ticket have a barcode and was it scanned by the Train Manager's phone or barcode reader?

Seems Super off peak on the 1600 wouldn't be valid for a ticket from London Terminals to Bristol (the train you were on) as the block is 1505-1900 for that journey, so announcements as someone mentioned need to be more specific or not mention SOP tickets.

In your situation, whether the TM would have tried making you purchase another ticket will probably never be known, as you were about to alight.

The thing that would really annoy me is if the TM said, as did to you, something along lines of 'make sure you get right ticket next time', which does clearly imply they thought they were right, when not & next time could be a different outcome for someone else.

Personally, I'd explain exactly what happened to GWR but omit the actual date (so as not to individualise it) and ask that all TMs are re-briefed urgently.

If a barcode was scanned, I *assume* (not sure) that it would just show as valid and TM moves straight on.

 

[Hadders]

I suggest the likely reason is that the Paddington staff are set in their ways and do not have any interest in being trained, because they've "been doing their job for X years and know what they're doing".

One of the consequences of a heavily unionized workforce is that where this type of attitude becomes embedded it is very hard to crack, because moving staff on is close to impossible.

It not for staff members to choose what they will or won’t do.

If management won’t train staff then management should be dealt with.

If, having been trained, staff don’t put into practice what they’ve been told then they should be disciplined.

I accept that mistakes will sometimes be made, and that’s fine as long as the person making it learns from it. What isn’t acceptable is a blatant disregard for the rules.

 

[island]

It not for staff members to choose what they will or won’t do.

If management won’t train staff then management should be dealt with.

If, having been trained, staff don’t put into practice what they’ve been told then they should be disciplined.

I accept that mistakes will sometimes be made, and that’s fine as long as the person making it learns from it. What isn’t acceptable is a blatant disregard for the rules.

I agree entirely. What I am saying is that despite what both of us have said, nothing will change.

 

[Hadders]

I agree entirely. What I am saying is that despite what both of us have said, nothing will change.

Agreed. Sadly.

 

[trainophile]

By complete contrast, on my journey from Penzance to Newton Abbot the other evening I didn't have a single ticket inspection, despite being sat in First Class and being offered refreshments on numerous occasions. It seems to all depend on what staff are on. My two (PNZ-Plymouth & PLY-NTA) were both delightful. Admittedly they were probably 1st Class hosts - I never saw a train manager or ticket inspector once.