HS2 Station for Manchester Airport?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the response of TfGM to the Select Committee, they urged the Government to make Manchester Airport a High Speed Rail stop, in addition to the city centre stop, which would give a journey time of 80 minutes to London. The stop at Manchester Airport would give greater commercial credability to the region.

It was further stated by TfGM that the HS2 link to Manchester would boost the economy of the region by at least £967 million and would create a minimum of 10,000 jobs.

Where should this station be sited to gain the maximum rail potential?

 

[The Snap]

Given that the suggested route for HS2, I believe, takes it through the Styal area, I would say the station would be best placed somewhere round there? With links to the main airport by Skywalk, Metrolink and bus?

 

[gordonthemoron]

next to the greggs shop in T1?

 

[Nym]

May I refer you to the land that curreny sits as car parks to the North of the M56 Spur (SEMMS) (This could also do with completion, at least initaly to the A34)

Theres space for some spectacular junctions, and it's immidiatly adjecent to the current GTI and can have a skywalk travelator there that can be traversed in 5 - 10mins. It's also next to enough land for an extremely large car park, a direct link to the extention of Terminal 2, and on 70% of bus routes from Wythenshawe into Manchester Airport. The land also belongs to Manchester Airport Group, that if you don't know, is owned by the 10 councils of Greater Manchester, and is already classed as Brown Belt, rather than building out into Styal forest areas that wouldn't be politicaly popular and would result in a 20 min journey time to the terminal, and poorer transport links to the M56, M60, M6 and A5103, unlike the SEMMS spur junction rondabout that could directly feed the new Manchester South Parkway Approach

The area is neatly shown on this map...

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a1c27811f91894a8b

Oh and PS: Before somone starts questioning my local kowlage, look at the Location: marker on the left of this post and bear in mind that I worked over two years at Manchester Airport, quite a lot of that time spent in the GTI or in T2, and I know whats round them areas and at most four houses and a pub would need purchasing, but with neat planning, all but the pub could be avoided, even that if really careful...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that your local knowledge is second to none but looking at your map, the line bifurcates just before Heald Green station then passes under Finney Lane (the main through road in Heald Green) and goes behind about 20 houses on Outwood Road, before crossing over the existing Styal line on your stated elevated track (pale green on your map)

The existing Styal line is in a deep cutting in that area. Do you propose the line at the bifurcation point to rise above the existing ground level much higher than the existing Styal line on an embankment? I read your post not long after you posted it and drove to Heald Green to look at the proposed area. Your main problem would be the rear land of the houses on Outwood Road, which is only separated from the Styal line by a narrow strip of land at present, the existing line being in a cutting at the rear of these houses. You would need demolition of these houses if the proposed line goes in between them and the existing line on an embankment, as there is just not the width of land available in that area.

You would be faced with some very irate residents in the larger area of that vicinity and the three local Inependant Ratepayers councillors if a railway line above ground level impinged upon the area as some of these houses are large mature detached and semi-detached houses with a view at the rear of them that would be lost by any elevated railway line.

 

[Nym]

I can't view the map at the moment but that was intended to be a rough layout, it could be acceived by either widening the current cutting by walling it or placing the line in a tunnel elrlier. It would be tunnel on that plan from heald green to longsight iirc, possibly some surface or viaduct sections.
On later consideration of tunneling requirements, i'm tending to sway more toward the route through wythenshawe, tracking along side the metrolink lines, then tunneling to longsight from sale water park.
Of course with the amount of tunneling we're looking at, it might be best to have a delta junction between the m56 and alt'ham, with the wcml connection tunneling under alt'ham, and the manchester bound in another tunnel, possibly surfacing to follow princess road then loop into longsight, but the tight curves mean a direct tunnel would proberbly be much better, and meet much less opersition. Also, entering mia from the east and leaving from the west gives through trains a straight line, and manchester bound traffic wouldn't need to reverse. It would need a station at manc w parkway aswell though

 

[CosherB]

It makes even less sense to have HS2 call at Manchester Airport than to call at Heathrow. HS2 will be a high speed city centre to city centre railway; start going round the houses and putting in extra stops and ceases to be all that fast!

And, the vast majority of traffic from Manchester Airport is holiday flights. Not many passengers on those will be coming from central London!

 

[WatcherZero]

Sadly in the two years youve been gone that land has now been taken for the Airport City Enterprize Zone announced in the last Budget.


http://www.manchester.gov.uk/site/scripts/download.php?fileID=16025

http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/fi..._airport_extension_and_semmms_road_scheme.pdf

 

[Nym]

pray that hs2's report says use that land then the space will be reserved. And if mia isn't a good stop why have bhx? Its ment for park n ride etc. And airport connections...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It makes even less sense to have HS2 call at Manchester Airport than to call at Heathrow. HS2 will be a high speed city centre to city centre railway; start going round the houses and putting in extra stops and ceases to be all that fast!

And, the vast majority of traffic from Manchester Airport is holiday flights. Not many passengers on those will be coming from central London!

From what I understand, Manchester Airport is in a newly-created Enterprise Zone. This is why TfGM are talking about the number of new jobs that could be created and the figure of £967 million that they also referred to will be nothing to do with holiday flights.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't view the map at the moment but that was intended to be a rough layout, it could be acceived by either widening the current cutting by walling it or placing the line in a tunnel elrlier. It would be tunnel on that plan from heald green to longsight iirc, possibly some surface or viaduct sections.
On later consideration of tunneling requirements, i'm tending to sway more toward the route through wythenshawe, tracking along side the metrolink lines, then tunneling to longsight from sale water park.

Your change of route has earned you the undying gratitude from the residents of Heald Green affected by "the green route" in your first plan.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im still betting on a western city centre approach to Victoria.

 

[Holly]

It makes even less sense to have HS2 call at Manchester Airport than to call at Heathrow. HS2 will be a high speed city centre to city centre railway; start going round the houses and ...

A reason for making the HS2 stop at Manchester Airport instead of taking HS2 to the city centre is that it is an awful lot cheaper.

The stopping line can cross the airport underground in a tunnel (after all, trains that stop will not be going very fast) with the station located wherever is best from an onward transport perspective. Probably within easy walking distance to the existing station. North of the airport the stopping line can rejoin the fast (non stopping) line which goes Northwards towards Scotland having passed the airport largely to the West where there are green fields.

HS2 compatible trains can leave the HS2 at various points to proceed along legacy lines. Including leaving HS2 South of the airport to proceed non-stop at about 100mph to Manchester city centre.

Again, the big advantage of this approach is that it is a lot cheaper than building high speed corridors through urban areas. And it will only add 15 minutes or so to city centre journey times (since terminating trains have to slow down and stop anyway).

An interesting possibility is an interim connection (before the Scotland extension is built) to rejoin the WCML at Hartford curve.

 

[Nym]

Holly, we're ment to be having both, City Centre and Manc Airport stations, and it is a possibility of having a 3rd just east of Warrington.

And theres any number of options as for where to put it, but I don't think Victoria is a decent idea, there isn't enough space for six 400m platforms unless you build a box over the Western Approaches

 

[185]

I say non-stop City to City all the way. The Spanish with AVE have the right idea. There will always be councillors and dignitaries on the route with their own agenda. When I was at GMPTE in 1998, there was a constant stream of letters from a councillor demanding we back his campaign to stop the North Wales Coast service at Patri-bl**dy-Croft!?!

If they want to expand onto the land south of Piccadilly for the new HS2 station, can they include a very sensible price for my own property too???

 

[CosherB]

Terminating HS2 Manchester arm at the airport does make sense. Calling at the Airport on the way to a city centre terminus is a nonesense.

 

[Nym]

Whos saying about calling on the way into Manchester, trains on HS2 will be going elsewhere you know...

And sorry, but how does terminating HS2's Manchester Branch 12 miles from the city make sense?

If it's a similar layout as Birmingham with a delta junction just 'north' of the airport station with a Branch off to Manchester and the main route continuing, it makes perfect sense to have services call there on their way to say, Birmingham.

A Manchester West Parkway 'north' of the Delta Junction could also serve as another parkway station, potentially with javalin services running in and out of Manchester as P&R Services.

eg. as attached.

 

[Nym]

Theres a reason why the slow platforms are in the middle, the same as they are at Stratford International, it would allow 'javelin' commuter services to turn around without disrupting the rest of the flow, and have the platforms used for through trains and potentialy designated as 'airside' platforms for international trains.

EDIT: I ment to his edit there...

EDIT 2:

Now available on google maps.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a3e259722a0ccf03f

 

[CosherB]

And sorry, but how does terminating HS2's Manchester Branch 12 miles from the city make sense?

9 miles, actually.

As has already been said, because as with TGV trains would use conventional rail for the last few miles into the city. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than building a HS infrastructure into a major built-up area, and the time lost is minimal as the HS train would be slowing for the stop over the last few miles anyway.

 

[Holly]

Terminating HS2 Manchester arm at the airport does make sense. Calling at the Airport on the way to a city centre terminus is a nonesense.

Unless perhaps the city centre terminus is 175 miles away (in Scotland).

 

[Nym]

9 miles, actually.

As has already been said, because as with TGV trains would use conventional rail for the last few miles into the city. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than building a HS infrastructure into a major built-up area, and the time lost is minimal as the HS train would be slowing for the stop over the last few miles anyway.

Who said they'd use conventional rail to access Manchester CC?

Yes, when HS2 opens to Rugley they will use the existing WCML from Rugley to Manchester, but there isn't any point in extending HS2 to be 9miles short of Manchester as the whole idea is to run 400m long GC trains into Manchester.

And there isn't any space on the rails into Manchester, or at Piccadilly anyway, especially in 14 years when HS2 will get there.

Edit: Anyone remember how stupid terminating at Old Oak sounded?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unless perhaps the city centre terminus is 175 miles away (in Scotland).

Holly, first let me welcome you as a new member to our forum.

Which particular terminus in Scotland do you refer to.....the one on the west side or the one on the east side of the country?

Has the political establishment in Scotland made any comments on how HS2 may benefit the economy of Scotland should full extensions be effected. The question of devolution would not arise, as no-one has ever suggested that Scotland would withdraw from the European Community.

 

[Holly]

... Which particular terminus in Scotland do you refer to.....the one on the west side or the one on the east side of the country? ....

Thank you for the welcome.

West, or East, or perhaps in the middle or somewhere else? I'm sure such speculation is best left for the Scots to do for themselves. But if there were to be an HS railway to Scotland it surely would go to somewhere in the general Glasgow / Edinburgh region (hence 175 miles or thereabouts from Manchester airport).

The main thing is that Manchester airport acquires both slow platformed lines that are very conveniently located and also avoiding lines located where land is cheap (over green fields) for the use of non-stopping trains at full speed.

All this is all far off of course. In the meanwhile there will be plenty of opportunity to refine how to best schedule and operate trains that run on HS for part of the journey and on legacy conventional rail for the remainder.
There may be plans today to route HS lines through urban areas outside London, but I forecast cancellations when they are priced out in detail !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There may be plans today to route HS lines through urban areas outside London, but I forecast cancellations when they are priced out in detail !

Only time will tell what exactly will happen with matters as they proceed in the fullness of time. Oh for the benefit of hindsight if it could be revealed to us today!

The words "Government" and "spending plans" often are conjoined to the detriment of many projects, Look at the recent Defence Review for an example of what this means in real terms.

 

[Nym]

Erm, they have been priced and planned in detail, why do you think HS2 ltd. was asked to plan to within an inch of where the route actually should be?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On later consideration of tunneling requirements, I'm tending to sway more toward the route through Wythenshawe, tracking along side the Metrolink lines, then tunneling to Longsight from Sale water park. It would need a station at Manchester West Parkway as well though

Did you come up with any further thoughts on this matter...or would this route now be your preferred option?

 

[Nym]

Yeah, I'm tending to like the route of the former motorway alignment through Roundthorn Ind Estate, through Wythenshawe, and then tunnel from Sale Water Park to Longsight, forming a big delta junction.

This rough route http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a3e259722a0ccf03f

Keeps as much running above ground as possible, and only needs about 5 or 6 properties demolishing.

The through route would need about a mile and half of tunnel under alt'ham, can't think of any way around this, other than diverting way south and going over the M56 again very south of Alt'ham. But, 1 mile of tunnel is no major problem as far as I can tell. There would only need to be about 15 houses lost, and 3 or 4 miles of tunnel. Could be done on the super cheap if they demolish sainsburies in fallowfeild and loop round to East of Piccadilly. But that would be the wrong side for the available land at Piccadilly.

 

[WatcherZero]

Modern Railways latest (June) issue is calling the Manchester station location as the 1960's planned but abandoned Trinity Station which incorporated Salford Central, Exchange and Victoria. Todays Railways June issue is saying still desire for it be a through station for further north high speed services.

I must say im really enjoying all the speculation (reminds me of 1st phase HS2, IEP amd Electrification suspense). I fear I may be dissapointed when an actual site is revealed.

 

[Nym]

Well, if the actual site for the Cental Manchester station is on the Ordstall Lane site bwteeen Liverpool Road / Street and Deal St Junction, I'll be dissapointed, equally disapointed if the 'Manchester Parkway' station isn't able to serve Manchester Airport by means of moving walkways or walking. Theres tonnes of land that I have pointed out, and if they use it for businesses that couldn't care less if the're on Hardy Lane next to a pub, or shoved out onto some empty land near the T2 expansion area, then it will be a big waste of an opertunity.

Personally, I don't think three stations for Manchester is out of the question, neither is running into the Mayfeild Industrial area, theres many different routes to get there, and pathing a route from Manchester Airport, thats the easyest peice of spare land in Manchester to Access, Ordstall Lane would mean some tight curves and following the Alt'ham metrolink line. Granted, some Longsight access options have tight curves, but, it accesses Piccadilly, and therefore can be done in stages, with diversionary routes available.

You could for example run the route entirely above ground, with the destruction of about 40 private homes and 20 businesses. But it would mean tight curves, alternatively, 3 miles of tunnels and demolishing sainsburies would mean only sainsburys would have to go, or dive into a tunnel before there, in West Fallowfeild, just south of the A6010 and tunnel to Longsight, new viaduct from Longsight Intl. for 4 more tracks, 2 HS2 and 2 for the airport line. Would need a little bit of tunneling in Wythenshawe, a bit to get under Hardy Lane, and from Fallowfeild to Longsight.

Through trains, yes, they can call at Manc S Parkway or Manc W Parkway. Through the centre of Manchetser, I'd love to know what you'd been smoking if you can find space for that (I have, but it's all viaduct and would cost billions, and you may as well finish the M602 at the same time, as it will mean the demolition of a lot of businesses allong Regent Road.

And then there are two options for through routes, with my current prefered route into Manchester, either a tight delta junction near Sale Water Park, or a short tunnel under east Alt'ham, then pick up the old Stockport - Glazbrook alignment, and use their bridge embankments, meet up with the Chat Moss route for the WCML, facilitate for a flying junction to the north, Done.

Near Mauldeth Road West where the tunnel immerges from under Hardy Lane would be 3 track, with one track staying down the centre and above ground a little bit longer, then tunneling down under Hardy Lane to form a slack delta with a single track link to the north from Manchester. 2 track as soon as it immerges.

EDIT: Stealing some back gardens may result in enough space for a 2 + 2 track layout, but it would need to be in a cutting to dive under St Wellingrough's Road Metrolink Station.