Manchester Metrolink (Non speculative discussion)

[MetrolinkInsYT]

Hence why I said there’s no real answer to that question.

FYI, we don’t use the line colours internally either. The lines are known by their destination the vast majority of the time, and very occasionally by ORL/SML/EML for the new lines.

The colours seem to have made their way from the map into Google/Apple Maps and people assume we use them. If you ask me where to get the yellow line for example I wouldn’t have a clue.

Sorry, that last paragraph was actually meant to be in reply to someone else.

I thought that the different colours seemed too confusing to be used by the Metrolink workforce as a good way of referring to routes.

People using the system for the first time often ask me around Piccadilly "is this the blue line?" (Ashton-Eccles), and if I just say yes, then they'll assume it's like a London type system where every train from any platform goes the same way on the same line and everything is on different levels (especially because Piccadilly stop looks like it's underground!).

Surely there are people who decide on how the tram network appears on Google Maps, though. If the routes were numbered instead (like buses), it might prove to be less confusing, since they aren't officially referred to by colours as you've said. I do remember from ~2016 that there were 11 or 12 routes named with letters.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Surely there are people who decide on how the tram network appears on Google Maps, though.

Mapping applications will probably treat the tram however the official map does.

If the routes were numbered instead (like buses), it might prove to be less confusing, since they aren't officially referred to by colours as you've said. I do remember from ~2016 that there were 11 or 12 routes named with letters.

I disagree, the colours are much easier to understand than letters.

I never noticed that they don't use the colours at all except for on the map.
The most I can see as a mention of the colours is on the disruptions page https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#tram
The colours used there match up with the line colours.

 

[MetrolinkInsYT]

I disagree, the colours are much easier to understand than letters.

I just mentioned the letters because it was from a previous diagram.
I mentioned numbers as well, and by that I meant the colours are kept, but numbers are added in.

What about people that may be colour blind, or people that view colours slightly differently? East Didsbury-Shaw and Crompton has been referred to as both grey and brown. Airport-Victoria has been referred to as dark blue, blue, and navy, and Ashton-Eccles as light blue, or just blue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you ask me where to get the yellow line for example I wouldn’t have a clue.

TfGM seem to have this (the yellow line) as Bury to Piccadilly. Possibly helps those from outside the area.

 

[cool110]

What about people that may be colour blind, or people that view colours slightly differently? East Didsbury-Shaw and Crompton has been referred to as both grey and brown. Airport-Victoria has been referred to as dark blue, blue, and navy, and Ashton-Eccles as light blue, or just blue.

Amsterdam does a great job of that by using 2 colour "flags" so they can stick to base colours, as well as using numbers. For example 1

and 5

are both yellow and green, but with the split in different directions.

 

[507 001]

I think what this demonstrates is that we don’t need letters or numbers. Referring to the lines as their ultimate destination is absolutely fine.

 

[MetrolinkInsYT]

I think what this demonstrates is that we don’t need letters or numbers. Referring to the lines as their ultimate destination is absolutely fine.

Yes, I agree that it works for naming lines. My question was what about the actual routes that run from the Didsbury Line to Rochdale Line via city centre for example?

Also said before, "People using the system for the first time often ask me around Piccadilly "is this the blue line?" (Ashton-Eccles), and if I just say yes, then they'll assume it's like a London type system where every train from any platform goes the same way on the same line and everything is on different levels (especially because Piccadilly stop looks like it's underground!)."

If numbers were used alongside the colours (on the network diagram I mean), the above wouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[Mothball]

Personally, since the system expanded, I've always felt the using the end of the line as a destination can be confusing for many first time users/non English speakers. It's easy if everything is running fine but as soon as short workings are added into the mix it isn't as simple.

Using the start of the 2CC closure as a example, if you wanted a stop on the Rochdale line from Market Street and a Newbold, Freehold, Mumps and Newton Heath are coming through in quick succession, it's a very quick scan of the 90 odd stops on the map to find if these obscure places are on the line you need.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally, since the system expanded, I've always felt the using the end of the line as a destination can be confusing for many first time users/non English speakers. It's easy if everything is running fine but as soon as short workings are added into the mix it isn't as simple.

Using the start of the 2CC closure as a example, if you wanted a stop on the Rochdale line from Market Street and a Newbold, Freehold, Mumps and Newton Heath are coming through in quick succession, it's a very quick scan of the 90 odd stops on the map to find if these obscure places are on the line you need.

Not wishing to sound a tad xenophobic, my view concerns the population at large of the Greater Manchester conurbation who are aware of the areas where the Metrolink serves. Of the Rochdale line examples that you quote above, Newbold and Freehold are certainly known to their locals, Oldham Mumps has been a major transport hub area of the Oldham town centre for countless years with the former railway station being situated there and Newton Heath and Moston Metrolink station to give it its full title (the former Dean Lane railway station) serves two very large named areas of north Manchester.

It is the responsibility of the referred-to first time prospective line users to familiarise themselves with the line in question by obtaining prior information and comprehending it before setting off on their journey. The matter of non-English speakers is just the same in any country of Europe, where residents of other countries wish to make travel arrangements, such as a Spanish person in Austria or Sweden might experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is the responsibility of the referred-to first time prospective line users to familiarise themselves with the line in question by obtaining prior information and comprehending it before setting off on their journey. The matter of non-English speakers is just the same in any country of Europe, where residents of other countries wish to make travel arrangements, such as a Spanish person in Austria or Sweden might experience.

Pretty much any other country would use route numbering, and it's about time Metrolink did.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pretty much any other country would use route numbering, and it's about time Metrolink did.

One therefore should enquire as to the reasons in the years that the Metrolink has been operational, once extended, why the stated matter of route numbering has not been seen worthy of introduction by the Combined Authority, who I have often been reassured have much greater transport knowledge than the average man in the street. Of all the other modern tramway systems in England and Scotland that have been introduced, how many have route numbering?

 

[Northerngirl]

Sheffield is probably the closest system & they use colours. I think the issue with metrolink is that they have never had the colours on displays or announcements. I've always hated how grey/brown & orange are just shorter parts of another line. If each branch had its own color that was on the front of the tram, it would definitely help

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sheffield is probably the closest system & they use colours. I think the issue with metrolink is that they have never had the colours on displays or announcements. I've always hated how grey/brown & orange are just shorter parts of another line. If each branch had its own color that was on the front of the tram, it would definitely help

At the age of 79, that means I must be unusual in standing on the tram platform at Victoria and as well as having checked the display unit on the tram station platform stating which tram was next due, also looking at the destination shown in the tram cab destination display as a double check. I do not visit Manchester very often and have never boarded the wrong tram yet.

 

[Mothball]

Not wishing to sound a tad xenophobic, my view concerns the population at large of the Greater Manchester conurbation who are aware of the areas where the Metrolink serves. Of the Rochdale line examples that you quote above, Newbold and Freehold are certainly known to their locals, Oldham Mumps has been a major transport hub area of the Oldham town centre for countless years with the former railway station being situated there and Newton Heath and Moston Metrolink station to give it its full title (the former Dean Lane railway station) serves two very large named areas of north Manchester.

It is the responsibility of the referred-to first time prospective line users to familiarise themselves with the line in question by obtaining prior information and comprehending it before setting off on their journey. The matter of non-English speakers is just the same in any country of Europe, where residents of other countries wish to make travel arrangements, such as a Spanish person in Austria or Sweden might experience.

That's all well and good when you know these areas, and the areas In-between but say for someone who has never visited Manchester and wanted to travel to Derker as an example, you can plan ahead and know you need a Shaw or Rochdale and not a Bury, then one of these obscure destinations arrive its a case of either let it go and wait for the next, chance it, or try and scan the map as quickly as possible looking for where "Newbold" is.

One therefore should enquire as to the reasons in the years that the Metrolink has been operational, once extended, why the stated matter of route numbering has not been seen worthy of introduction by the Combined Authority, who I have often been reassured have much greater transport knowledge than the average man in the street. Of all the other modern tramway systems in England and Scotland that have been introduced, how many have route numbering?

How many of these other systems are as complex?

At the age of 79, that means I must be unusual in standing on the tram platform at Victoria and as well as having checked the display unit on the tram station platform stating which tram was next due, also looking at the destination shown in the tram cab destination display as a double check. I do not visit Manchester very often and have never boarded the wrong tram yet.

But what would happen if the next tram to arrive was showing a location you had never heard of?

It is easy to say something is easy when you understand the topic and the principles of how they work and just because something is navigable, doesn't mean it couldn't be made easier.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But what would happen if the next tram to arrive was showing a location you had never heard of?

It is easy to say something is easy when you understand the topic and the principles of how they work and just because something is navigable, doesn't mean it couldn't be made easier.....

At Victoria, there are always plenty of Metrolink staff around. I pride myself at knowing every station on the Manchester Metrolink system. However, if it was showing "Depot", I would not board it...

 

[MetrolinkInsYT]

One therefore should enquire as to the reasons in the years that the Metrolink has been operational, once extended, why the stated matter of route numbering has not been seen worthy of introduction by the Combined Authority, who I have often been reassured have much greater transport knowledge than the average man in the street. Of all the other modern tramway systems in England and Scotland that have been introduced, how many have route numbering?

Not numbers, but letters were introduced for routes around 2016 on the network diagram and taken out in 2019 for the new one with fare zones.

At Victoria, there are always plenty of Metrolink staff around. I pride myself at knowing every station on the Manchester Metrolink system. However, it was showing "Depot", I would not board it...

9/10 times no. Yes, more have been rolled out recently but I've stood on the Victoria platforms at least a thousand times and passed through the stop onboard a tram even more and have rarely seen staff members.
I know because I specifically look for staff members every time I use a tram stop in the city centre. People who are using the system for the first time will see and ask a staff member what they should be doing, but if there's nobody there (often the case) then I or someone else on the platform who is knowledgeable about the network will step in.
Even when I'm just travelling around on the system on the weekends, I only see one, maybe two groups in the city centre unless there's some big event going on.

 

[Northerngirl]

It is easy to say something is easy when you understand the topic and the principles of how they work and just because something is navigable, doesn't mean it couldn't be made easier.....

Couldn't agree more, in my opinion, a handfull of multicolour leds next to the destination is a very simple way to make the network easier to navigate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Couldn't agree more, in my opinion, a handfull of multicolour leds next to the destination is a very simple way to make the network easier to navigate.

As I said before, those in charge of running the system are the ones to ask that question of. Had you any idea of the cost that would be involved in bringing such a system into operation?

 

[Cowley]

Some of the recent posts are very much speculative, so to keep that away from this main thread there’s a new one below:

Manchester Metrolink - Speculative ideas on how to improve it?

I believe the best numbering system would be give each line a number 1-9 based on their outer termini, geographically clockwise, with Bury-Altrincham as 1, Rochdale-East Didsbury as 2 etc. Short starters would get an additional number based on where they were terminating. A tram from East...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Tim33160]

Summer track works across the network starts tomorrow Saturday 22nd
https://tfgm.com/tram-improvement-works

Throughout 2024, planned improvement works will take place across the tram network.
Some works will take several days especially in the city centre
These works will affect various different lines, and are summarised below.
For the majority of the improvement works, a replacement bus service will be operating.

London Road works​

From Saturday 22 June to Tuesday 9 July, work will take place on London Road - close to Piccadilly Station.
During this time, no trams will operate between Piccadilly and Piccadilly Gardens.
Trams on the Ashton line will operate between Ashton and Piccadilly Station – passengers wanting to make an onward journey will need to connect with other tram services at Piccadilly Gardens.
Trams on the Altrincham/Bury lines will not be serving Piccadilly and will instead travel directly between Altrincham and Bury.
Find out more

---

Altrincham line works​

On Sunday 30 June, work will take place between Sale and Brooklands tram stops.
During this time, no trams will operate on the Altrincham line.
A bus replacement service will run between Altrincham and Piccadilly
Find out more

---

Altrincham line works​

On Sunday 14 July, work will take place between Sale and Brooklands tram stops.
During this time, no trams will operate on the Altrincham line.
A bus replacement service will run between Altrincham and Piccadilly
Find out more

---

Rochdale line works​

On Sunday 21 July there will be no tram service between Rochdale Town Centre and Freehold.
A bus replacement service will operate between the affected stops.
Find out more

---

Shudehill and Market Street works​

From Wednesday 24 July to Monday 19 August, work will take place close to Shudehill tram stop and, at the same time, Market Street tram stop.
During this time, no trams will operate between Market Street and Shudehill.
A signed walking route will be put in place between the stops and a bus replacement service will operate between Piccadilly and Victoria.
Customer wishing to travel to Piccadilly station, or on the Ashton line, will be able to connect to services at St Peter's Square.
Find out more

---

Piccadilly Gardens works​

From Tuesday 27 August to Tuesday 17 September, work will take place at Piccadilly Gardens.
During this time, no trams will operate between Piccadilly Gardens and St Peter's Square.
Trams will continue to operate as usual between Piccadilly and Victoria, and from St Peter's Square to Victoria via Exchange Square.
A bus replacement service will run between Deansgate-Castlefield and Piccadilly
Find out more

---

Rochdale line works​

From Saturday 19 October to Thursday 31 October, work will take place on the Rochdale line.
No tram services will operate between Rochdale Railway Station and Rochdale Town Centre.
A bus replacement service will operate between the affected stops.
Find out more

 

[sprunt]

Is there any update on when the Trafford Centre service might be extended to Crumpsall? I seem to remember the last update was that they were waiting for the opportunity to do the required route knowledge training, has there been any movement on this?

 

[507 001]

Is there any update on when the Trafford Centre service might be extended to Crumpsall? I seem to remember the last update was that they were waiting for the opportunity to do the required route knowledge training, has there been any movement on this?

No, in short. Things keep getting in the way. The main issue at the moment isn’t necessarily route knowledge (although there’s not a lot of Queens Rd Drivers that sign the TPL).

 

[sprunt]

Ah well. thanks for the update.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has there been any improvement in the "ASB hot-spots" recently?

 

[IceBlue]

No, in short. Things keep getting in the way. The main issue at the moment isn’t necessarily route knowledge (although there’s not a lot of Queens Rd Drivers that sign the TPL).

On a broader level, how is route knowledge organised? Can Trafford/QP drivers potentially sign the full network or do they each cover only sections of it?

 

[507 001]

On a broader level, how is route knowledge organised? Can Trafford/QP drivers potentially sign the full network or do they each cover only sections of it?

New Drivers learn Bury-Altrincham, Velopark and 2CC during their initial training. They are then taught the rest of the lines over their first year/year and a half.

Trafford Drivers sign the whole system, Queens road Drivers sign everything except TPL, apart from a few that have transferred from TRD, Minder Drivers, Testing and Commissioning Drivers, Driver Team Managers and Part time Drivers (who work from both depots on a regular basis).

Eventually everyone will sign everywhere, there just hasn't been a requirement to train most of the QRD drivers on TPL yet. Similarly when the Airport line opened, that was Trafford only for a long time.

 

[jfollows]

New Drivers learn Bury-Altrincham, Velopark and 2CC during their initial training. They are then taught the rest of the lines over their first year/year and a half.

Trafford Drivers sign the whole system, Queens road Drivers sign everything except TPL, apart from a few that have transferred from TRD, Minder Drivers, Testing and Commissioning Drivers, Driver Team Managers and Part time Drivers (who work from both depots on a regular basis).

Eventually everyone will sign everywhere, there just hasn't been a requirement to train most of the QRD drivers on TPL yet. Similarly when the Airport line opened, that was Trafford only for a long time.

Sorry, I’m sure you’re trying to be informative, but TPL, TRD, QRD?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, I’m sure you’re trying to be informative, but TPL, TRD, QRD?

I think QRD can only be Queens Road depot, TRD possibly Trafford depot, but TPL only brings Timperley to mind more than Trafford Centre.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

TPL = Trafford Park Line?

 

[507 001]

Sorry, I’m sure you’re trying to be informative, but TPL, TRD, QRD?

-Trafford Park Line
-Trafford Depot
-Queens Road Depot