Train conductor missing - Southeastern

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm on 2N64 to Ashford International and had to detrain at Kemsing because we've lost the train conductor... what happens now?

As you can imagine loads of people not happy

 

[TrainsToday]

I'm on 2N64 to Ashford International and had to detrain at Kemsing because we've lost the train conductor... what happens now?

As you can imagine loads of people not happy

Can I ask how this happened?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

No idea!

 

[zwk500]

When you say 'lost', are their whereabouts known and unable to continue with their duties, or does nobody know where they are?

what happens now?

4 options come to mind:
- passengers wait for next train while conductorless train proceeds out of service to clear the line
- Bus replacement organised and train proceeds out of service to nearest place with a conductor depot
- Replacement conductor taxied out to the station
- Original conductor located and taxied to the station

 

[pokemonsuper9]

train proceeds out of service

That looks to be part of the plan

Realtime Trains | 5N64 2039 Kemsing to Ashford International | 11/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 5N64 2039 departure from Kemsing to Ashford International on 11/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5N64 2039 Kemsing to Ashford International
Empty Coaching Stock

 

[MiNi]

Was he left behind at the last stop.
Replay bus forward or locate a relief guard. Wait an hour for the next service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2024 ==

That looks to be part of the plan

Realtime Trains | 5N64 2039 Kemsing to Ashford International | 11/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 5N64 2039 departure from Kemsing to Ashford International on 11/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Train running DOO to Ashford

 

[JKF]

Are they running along the four foot chasing the train like in that Thomas story?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It appears there was no conductor at all according to a rather embarrassed driver as train DOO/platform dispatch
as far as Kemsing

Driver has asked control to stop the service behind once he's taken this one ecs to clear the line

 

[43066]

I'm on 2N64 to Ashford International and had to detrain at Kemsing because we've lost the train conductor... what happens now?

As you can imagine loads of people not happy

“Lost” where?!

If the conductor is unable to continue presumably the train will depart ECS and you’ll need to take the next service.

If the conductor isn’t physically present, the only scenario I can imagine is that they’ve somehow got left behind at one of the stations with platform-driver dispatch, and the driver has only became aware at Kemsing.

But I thought Otford (the last station) was guard dispatch for mainline services, so not sure why it wasn’t realised there (my knowledge is rather dated so open to correction).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Train running DOO to Ashford

Empty

 

[stadler]

This has actually happened quite a few times before so this is not the first. Guards do not start operating doors or despatching trains until the train reaches Farningham Road or Kemsing or Hildenborough so it is quite easy for a Guard to be left behind at a previous station. Within the London area the trains are DOO services. Guards are diagrammed to be onboard all Mainline trains but are not guaranteed and the train can run without one if necessary within the London area. So what has happened here is one of two things. Either the Guard alighted at one of the stations in the London area to help a disabled passenger and the doors closed and he was left behind. Or no Guard was available but this was not properly communicated and the train was not cancelled so it was not realised until the train got to the first station with Guard despatch. Both of these possibilities have happened on dozens of occasions before so both are possible.

 

[Watershed]

Presumably these services operate DOO as far as Otford, after which control of the doors is handed over to the guard? I knew there was a 'metro' DOO section but wasn't sure where the boundary was.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But I thought Otford (the last station) was guard dispatch for mainline services, so not sure why it wasn’t realised there (my knowledge is rather dated so open to correction).

Yes I thought Otford was changeover from DOO to conductor

2N64 has just departed ecs

 

[43066]

It appears there was no conductor at all according to embarrassed driver as train DOO as far as Kemsing

SE conductors are AIUI still rostered onto trains for their entire journey, so should have been present when you left London.

Or no Guard was available but this was not properly communicated and the train was not cancelled so it was not realised until the train got to the first station with Guard despatch. Both of these possibilities have happened on dozens of occasions before so both are possible.

That’s entirely possible but incredibly poor this wasn’t communicated to the driver much earlier so that the line didn’t end up being blocked; most likely it would have been cancelled at origin, which is better than having to tip everyone out at Kemsing which is very much the back of beyond!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2024 ==

Yes I thought Otford was changeover from DOO to conductor

2N64 has just departed ecs

Yes. @ComUtoR might be able to shed some light on whether that’s changed…

 

[stadler]

“Lost” where?!

If the conductor is unable to continue presumably the train will depart ECS and you’ll need to take the next service.

If the conductor isn’t physically present, the only scenario I can imagine is that they’ve somehow got left behind at one of the stations with platform-driver dispatch, and the driver has only became aware at Kemsing.

But I thought Otford (the last station) was guard dispatch for mainline services, so not sure why it wasn’t realised there (my knowledge is rather dated so open to correction).

Otford is not Guard despatch. Kemsing is the first station. There must be a guaranteed Guard onboard from Otford (for Maidstone East line trains) or from Swanley (for Medway line trains) or from Sevenoaks (for Tonbridge line trains) but it is not until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that they actually start despatching. So the train is not allowed to leave Otford or Swanley or Sevenoaks without a Guard but of course if this does happen it will not be until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that it gets noticed.

 

[zwk500]

Either the Guard alighted at one of the stations in the London area to help a disabled passenger and the doors closed and he was left behind.

Is there not a process for the Guard to inform the driver passenger assistance is required at a DOO station?

There must be a guaranteed Guard onboard from Otford (for Maidstone East line trains) or from Swanley (for Medway line trains) or from Sevenoaks (for Tonbridge line trains) but it is not until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that they actually start despatching. So the train is not allowed to leave Otford or Swanley or Sevenoaks without a Guard but of course if this does happen it will not be until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that it gets noticed

Is it part of the despatch at Otford and Sevenoaks that the Driver and Guard should make contact with each other before departure? If not, how practical would it be to make it part of the procedure?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

On 1U06 now and will get a taxi to continue home

 

[43066]

Otford is not Guard despatch. Kemsing is the first station. There must be a guaranteed Guard onboard from Otford (for Maidstone East line trains) or from Swanley (for Medway line trains) or from Sevenoaks (for Tonbridge line trains) but it is not until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that they actually start despatching. So the train is not allowed to leave Otford or Swanley or Sevenoaks without a Guard but of course if this does happen it will not be until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough that it gets noticed.

Ok thanks, that settles it then. I was driving 319s around there with my DI circa. 2016 (using external monitors), so my memory is somewhat faded !

Quite the cock up, but these things happen. If they can stop another service additionally to get everyone moving again that would be ideal.

 

[bcarmicle]

Is it part of the despatch at Otford and Sevenoaks that the Driver and Guard should make contact with each other before departure? If not, how practical would it be to make it part of the procedure?

For what its worth, it doesn't look like blocking the line at Otford would be any better than blocking it at Kemsing as there's still nowhere to pass (and it then blocks the line to Sevenoaks as well).

 

[transportphoto]

Is it part of the despatch at Otford and Sevenoaks that the Driver and Guard should make contact with each other before departure? If not, how practical would it be to make it part of the procedure?

It probably is.

Much similar to the thread yesterday/day before relating to the stop short at a station in Northern area, an operational incident has occurred for which an appropriate investigation will occur. It’s not really for us to speculate as to how this has come about.

The safest outcome has happened, in that the train had been terminated at the first appropriate location whereby it could not continue from in passenger service.

 

[zwk500]

If they can stop another service additionally to get everyone moving again that would be ideal.

From the OP's report, they have stopped the following train (terminating at Maidstone East) to at least get people on the move.
RTT indicates it lost approximately 5 minutes making the stop: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W01061/2024-05-11/detailed

For what its worth, it doesn't look like blocking the line at Otford would be any better than blocking it at Kemsing as there's still nowhere to pass (and it then blocks the line to Sevenoaks as well).

Being able to inform passengers at Otford that they will need to detrain avoids having to stop the following service out of course (unless the decision is made to backfill the stops missed out) which might be seen as marginally better to passengers overall. I agree it's a pretty minor thing though.

It probably is.

Much similar to the thread yesterday/day before relating to the stop short at a station in Northern area, an operational incident has occurred for which an appropriate investigation will occur. It’s not really for us to speculate as to how this has come about.

I'm not trying to investigate this specific incident, but was enquiring about general procedure. Apologies if you felt I overstepped the line.

 

[transportphoto]

Apologies if you felt I overstepped the line.

Sorry - not at all - I just know what these threads can become!

 

[MiNi]

On 1U06 now and will get a taxi to continue home

Glad they have sorted it out by getting you on 1u06.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Glad they have sorted it out by getting you on 1u06.

Yes it's picking up the stops as far as Maidstone East, credit where its due

 

[43066]

Is there not a process for the Guard to inform the driver passenger assistance is required at a DOO station?

This is done by platform staff in the London area (they should notify the guard/driver of where the person is getting off). In the guarded area the guard simply won’t dispatch until they’ve completed assistance.

It probably is.

Short answer; it isn’t, the metro locations are monitors, bat and flag or CD/RA dispatch to driver, with no guard involvement, and the guard should always join the train at its origin in London. I’m not sure whether platform staff or driver is responsible for checking the guard is present.

If the train was dispatched without the guard due to an error by platform staff/driver you’d expect said guard to call control immediately to inform them, so it seems possible that in this case the guard was unavailable but the message somehow wasn’t passed on, and that this also wasn’t noticed by the driver or platform staff.

 

[stadler]

Is there not a process for the Guard to inform the driver passenger assistance is required at a DOO station?

Is it part of the despatch at Otford and Sevenoaks that the Driver and Guard should make contact with each other before departure? If not, how practical would it be to make it part of the procedure?

Guards on 375s and 377s have the ability to turn their key switch on at their panel. This is what Southern OBSs are required to do. This means that when the Driver closes the doors the Guards local door will stay open and the train will therefore be prevented from leaving. Guards on Southeastern have the ability to do this but it is not as commonly used as Southern OBSs especially as at most stations in London it will be platform staff helping the passenger. So often on Southeastern the Guards do not bother to do this. It is also possible that the Guard can often be further down the train and the Driver closed the doors while the Guard was walking to the carriage where the passenger needed help. On the 465s and 466s the Guard can leave their cab door open to prevent departure but there are no saloon panels to key in to while helping a passenger so the Electrostar method does not work.

There is currently no procedure at Otford or Swanley or Sevenoaks for the Guard letting the Driver know he is on the train as it is assumed that control will inform the Driver if there is an issue but of course this does not always happen. This is why whenever this happens it is not noticed until Kemsing or Farningham Road or Hildenborough even though according to the rules the train should not have left the previous station without a Guard onboard as the previous station is the DOO limit.

I see no reason why Southeastern could not introduce a simple bell code for the Guard to use at Otford or Swanley or Sevenoaks to let the Driver know that he is onboard. They could easily introduce a new bell code (say something like 1-3 or 2-3 or 7 or 8 as these codes are not already used) that the Guard is required to use to inform the Driver that they are onboard.

 

[43066]

Yes it's picking up the stops as far as Maidstone East, credit where its due

Good to hear.

 

[Trainguy34]

Looks like it ran ECS to Maidstone East before running in Service to Ashford back on schedule of 2N64 running at 2Z64. Unfortunately left 15 mins before the train most were likely on got in, leaving people to board the next train to Ashford, which stopped at Kemsing anyway and is likely departing Maidstone East now.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So I could have stayed on the train.....

They found a conductor at Maidstone East then I guess

 

[The Puddock]

I hope they're found safe and well soon.