Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[freerk]

Saw 805005 in Crewe today

 

[James Kevill]

How many Class 805s need to be applied for the Avanti West Coast vinyls?

 

[Snow1964]

How many Class 805s need to be applied for the Avanti West Coast vinyls?

What's the theory with using vinyls for these, rather than paint.

I'm aware the new French TGV-Ms are fully painted (no vinyls because they are harder to keep clean and increase drag), and paint lasts lot longer according to Alstom and SNCF.

I am sure I have read 810s are being painted to avoid the vinyl fade/deterioration problem

 

[Class 800]

What's the theory with using vinyls for these, rather than paint.

I'm aware the new French TGV-Ms are fully painted (no vinyls because they are harder to keep clean and increase drag), and paint lasts lot longer according to Alstom and SNCF.

I am sure I have read 810s are being painted to avoid the vinyl fade/deterioration problem

Are the 390s painted?

 

[DaveyJones]

Are the 390s painted?

No - They're Telegrau4 underneath Vinyl

 

[92002]

Are the 390s painted?

A bit off topic, but the early ScotRail trains treated with vinyls are now showing signs of wear. Noticed a couple earlier today

 

[800001]

What's the theory with using vinyls for these, rather than paint.

I'm aware the new French TGV-Ms are fully painted (no vinyls because they are harder to keep clean and increase drag), and paint lasts lot longer according to Alstom and SNCF.

I am sure I have read 810s are being painted to avoid the vinyl fade/deterioration problem

Most likely customer preference.
Hill trains Lumo shells arrived Blue, so customer can specify.

 

[Northerngirl]

With the turbulent future of avanti & franchises, its probably better value than having to sand them back if the contract goes soon

 

[Jamesrob637]

So will these enter service on the 1st or 2nd of June?

 

[Halish Railway]

I've been booking trains for after the timetable change and I'm unable to buy an AP ticket for the 10:21 from Birmingham New Street to London Euston which is currently a Voyager diagram but likely to be one of the first to switch over to being an 805/807. Either they don't want to sell AP tickets because they're not sure what type of train will work it given that they'll have different seat layouts or they're not sure if they'll have enough staff to work it.

 

[cambsy]

will the 805 and 807 MU line speeds be in operation by 1st June or when they enter service? Or will they run to current 110mph max for non tilting trains, and run late on their timings? The MU line speeds are not yet showing on Network Rail Sectional Appendix as of Thurs 9th May.

 

[modernrail]

Apologies I couldn’t locate an answer to this in the thread although I am sure it must be covered.

What is the logic of 7 carriage rather than 9 or 11 for the 807’s?

 

[Boodiggy]

Apologies I couldn’t locate an answer to this in the thread although I am sure it must be covered.

What is the logic of 7 carriage rather than 9 or 11 for the 807’s?

So they can call at Liverpool South Parkway. Due to longer carriages and configuration the number of seats is close to a 9 car Pendo.

 

[modernrail]

So they can call at Liverpool South Parkway. Due to longer carriages and configuration the number of seats is close to a 9 car Pendo.

Thanks. I have always thought of the 390 carriage length as fairly long. Interesting that 7 can almost equal 9.

Still, seems a bit of waste of WCML capacity not to go a bit longer and have SDO at South Parkway.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Interesting that 7 can almost equal 9.

In physical length, they're not really that close
Class 807 - 182m (26m carriages)
Class 390/0 - 217.5m (25m driving carriages, 24m others)
35 metres difference.

However for capacity:
Class 807 - 453 seats (49 first-class, 404 standard)
Class 390/0 - 469 seats (99 first-class/standard premium, 370 standard)
34 standard Class seats on an 807 than a 390/0.

Figures from Wikipedia because they're probably correct.

 

[Halish Railway]

Apologies I couldn’t locate an answer to this in the thread although I am sure it must be covered.

What is the logic of 7 carriage rather than 9 or 11 for the 807’s?

5 car 221 = 118.7m & 232 seats (206 of which are standard class, 26 first)
7 car 807 = 182m & 453 seats (404 of which are standard class, 49 first)
9 car 390 = 217.5m & 469 seats (370 of which are standard, 99 first)

So the Class 807s have more standard class seats than a 9 carriage Class 390 Pendolino. They don't need to have any more standard class seats than that as they're supplementing Pendolinos on the London to Liverpool route and replacing fun-sized 5 carriage Class 221s on London to Birmingham services.

Much of the reason for the short length is due to the greater floor space efficiency of a Class 807 compared to a 390 as well as the lack of low-density first class seating. With the introduction of the 807s first class seating capacity will increase across the Avanti network given that they will supplement 390s and replace 221s, with the 807s having roughly the same first class seating capacity and a pair of 221s. The lack of first class seats also reflects the fact that in a decade these trains will operate legacy services on the WCML whilst most passengers, particularly those that are likely to purchase a first class ticket are anticipated to use HS2 services, hence the anticipated lack of demand for first class on the legacy WCML services.

 

[800001]

805006 currently on route Oxley back to Merchant Park

 

[Welshman]

So will these enter service on the 1st or 2nd of June?

I tried to book on the Avanti website for a journey from Euston to Rhyl on the 1901 on Sunday, 2nd June, and got a different seating plan from that of the Voyagers.
So perhaps the intention is that will be an 805.
Mind you, last time I tried to book that service, it was cancelled!

 

[poffle]

I tried to book on the Avanti website for a journey from Euston to Rhyl on the 1901 on Sunday, 2nd June, and got a different seating plan from that of the Voyagers.
So perhaps the intention is that will be an 802.
Mind you, last time I tried to book that service, it was cancelled!

I know the morning boat train at 09:0x from EUS to HHD is normally formed of two voyagers. From the June timetable it's scheduled to stop at Flint. Flint can't take a double voyager.

( A couple of years ago there was a 10:0x service which connected with the Stena ferry. Half the train was locked up at Chester and everyone moved to the front set because the train was timetabled to call at Flint.)

So I think with the June timetable AWC have committed themselves to having 805s to North Wales.

One of the ironies in North Wale is that TFW run local trains, regional trains and express trains whilst AWC as long distance operator really only run semi fast trains calling almost everywhere. ( When they run trains at all.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

( A couple of years ago there was a 10:0x service which connected with the Stena ferry. Half the train was locked up at Chester and everyone moved to the front set because the train was timetabled to call at Flint.)

Is that the reason some skip Flint, due to an inability to call in double formations? I've often wondered why a few do that and yet serve Prestatyn. The faster TfW services do the reverse.

 

[Halish Railway]

I tried to book on the Avanti website for a journey from Euston to Rhyl on the 1901 on Sunday, 2nd June, and got a different seating plan from that of the Voyagers.
So perhaps the intention is that will be an 805.
Mind you, last time I tried to book that service, it was cancelled!

This is what the 06:48 and 12:48 from Holyhead to London Euston brings up on Monday 3rd June. Advance purchase tickets are not being sold on the 08:53 and 14:48 departures.

 

[AJDesiro]

This is what the 06:48 and 12:48 from Holyhead to London Euston brings up on Monday 3rd June. Advance purchase tickets are not being sold on the 08:53 and 14:48 departures.

View attachment 157894View attachment 157895

That's an 805, the abundance of bays shows it. Interestingly, the 08:16 from Euston-Birmingham cannot be booked online at all from June (not just advances), which was the service that @800001 suggested would be the launch service for the fleet: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...5-807s-hitachi-at300-sets.214752/post-6433968

There are quite a few unreservable seats on the 805 seat selector at the moment, presumably, this is to ensure that reservations can work on both 805s and voyagers (for example, seats 53-82 in coach D), avoiding situations where a train is fully unreserved due to being "the wrong type of train," I've had this happen before when a Pendolino was swapped for a Voyager. I have no idea how this will work when 805s don't fully share coach letters with the voyagers, though.

 

[poffle]

That's an 805, the abundance of bays shows it. Interestingly, the 08:16 from Euston-Birmingham cannot be booked online at all from June, which was the service that @800001 suggested would be the launch service for the fleet: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...5-807s-hitachi-at300-sets.214752/post-6433968

There are quite a few unreservable seats on the 805 seat selector at the moment, presumably, this is to ensure that reservations can work on both 805s and voyagers (for example, seats 53-82 in coach D), avoiding situations where a train is fully unreserved due to being "the wrong type of train," I've had this happen before when a Pendolino was swapped for a Voyager. I have no idea how this will work when 805s don't fully share coach letters with the voyagers, though.

I wonder if Avanti might have backed off 805s to Birmingham. Given the issues with power supply north of Crewe which means they need 805s for Liverpool and the fact that DFT have directed them to drop Shrewsbury.

Shrewsbury was the driver for Voyagers and 805s to Birmingham. Now the only route the 807s can be used on is to Birmingham. It might make sense to hold off on 805s to Birmingham and go straight to 807s. But the 807s will probably come into service after the 805s.

 

[Halish Railway]

I have no idea how this will work when 805s don't fully share coach letters with the voyagers, though.

Probably just say reservations for coach ‘Y’ are in coach ‘X’ for instance. In the days when LDHS trains on the ECML were worked by HSTs and IC225s that would be the case as the seat layout was almost identical but with different coach letters when a swap would happen.

I’d imagine that the London to Birmingham 221/80x diagrams aren’t available for advance purchase tickets as Avanti want flexibility of what type of train they use on those services.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Probably just say reservations for coach ‘Y’ are in coach ‘X’ for instance. In the days when LDHS trains on the ECML were worked by HSTs and IC225s that would be the case as the seat layout was almost identical but with different coach letters when a swap would happen.

Is there not an option for the 805s to just use the same carriage numbers as the 221s?
It's just some digital letters.

If the 805s are launching at this timetable change it's a bit weird how we've seen so little from Avanti talking about them, we're months overdue on the name

Name to be revealed later this year ahead trains entering service in 2023
The new name is expected to be announced later this year when the trains are expected to start the extensive programme of testing.
- 19 March 2022

 

[Welshman]

If the 805s are launching at this timetable change it's a bit weird how we've seen so little from Avanti talking about them, we're months overdue on the name

I trust AWC is confident that a sufficient number of staff are now trained on 805s, otherwise "This train is cancelled due to a lack of qualified staff" could join the sorry saga of apologies from AWC.

 

[800001]

I trust AWC is confident that a sufficient number of staff are now trained on 805s, otherwise "This train is cancelled due to a lack of qualified staff" could join the sorry saga of apologies from AWC.

Or they just use a Voyager?

 

[childwallblues]

I wonder if Avanti might have backed off 805s to Birmingham. Given the issues with power supply north of Crewe which means they need 805s for Liverpool and the fact that DFT have directed them to drop Shrewsbury.

Shrewsbury was the driver for Voyagers and 805s to Birmingham. Now the only route the 807s can be used on is to Birmingham. It might make sense to hold off on 805s to Birmingham and go straight to 807s. But the 807s will probably come into service after the 805s.

You and others on this thread quote NO 807s TO LIVERPOOL but where has this come from? I have not seen any evidence from Network Rail/Avanti to this effect. I do find it strange that 805s and in and out of Liverpool on electric power nearly every day (even 807002 has been here) so it does not make sense that you say they cannot come here.

 

[poffle]

You and others on this thread quote NO 807s TO LIVERPOOL but where has this come from? I have not seen any evidence from Network Rail/Avanti to this effect. I do find it strange that 805s and in and out of Liverpool on electric power nearly every day (even 807002 has been here) so it does not make sense that you say they cannot come here.

This starts at post 1815 in this thread which refers to statement at a TFN board meeting that 805s will be running on diesel north of Crewe due to power limitations on the WCML preventing 807s running on overhead power.

I assume that there is a difference between what test trains are allowed to do and regular hourly scheduled services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2024 ==

This starts at post 1815 in this thread which refers to statement at a TFN board meeting that 805s will be running on diesel north of Crewe due to power limitations on the WCML preventing 807s running on overhead power.

I assume that there is a difference between what test trains are allowed to do and regular hourly scheduled services.

Extract from Minutes of TfN Board Meeting on 20/3/24

4.17 On paragraph 5.8 of the report relating to the second service to Liverpool operating in diesel mode between Crewe to Liverpool, Cllr Corcoran asked what is being done to address restore the power supply issues between Crewe and Liverpool, which trains will be used to provide the second Liverpool service and where they will originate from. Additionally, he sought reassurance that there will be no restrictions on the Crewe to Chester route.

4.18 In response to Members’ questions and comments, Mr Montgomery addressed a number of issues. Regarding the second Liverpool service he stated he is aware of the impact on the economy of current poor performance and believes that services will improve in the area. He recognised the importance of rectifying the issues with the current hourly service before considering a second train. He said the new trains to be used are “bi modes” (a mix of diesel and electric) with the diesel element used in areas where the lines are not electrified/power supply is limited.

Documents at: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=152&MId=1426

 

[clchloe]

When can they be expected in service to Holyhead?