Manchester Intercity Services...

[yorksrob]

(Corrie, Man U, Life On Mars)

I think Manchester has the cultural edge musically as well, Madchester, New Order, Oasis to name but a few - (which I think is more important to a lot of bright young trendies than television) - Although I must admit, I do personally like ELO and the Moodies .

 

[radamfi]

There is cross or same platform interchange at Wigan North Western between Liverpool to Wigan and Wigan to Scotland trains in the northbound direction at least.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think Manchester has the cultural edge musically as well, Madchester, New Order, Oasis to name but a few - (which I think is more important to a lot of bright young trendies than television) - Although I must admit, I do personally like ELO and the Moodies .

Bah, Brum's got Black Sabbath and 'Zeppelin. You can't top that

 

[yorksrob]

Bah, Brum's got Black Sabbath and 'Zeppelin. You can't top that

Ah yes, there is something about a bit of Zep on a train journey

 

[Gareth]

There is cross or same platform interchange at Wigan North Western between Liverpool to Wigan and Wigan to Scotland trains in the northbound direction at least.

Well, yeah. There are tougher places to get to in Britain, admittedly.

 

[dave59]

(Referring back to the OP!)

The Whitehall rule seems to be that anything other than London-originating traffic is not worthy of 'proper' IC stock, but would combining NW England-Scotland into ICWC be too sensible for the DfT? An order of Pendolino variants to cover these and the Birmingham-Scotland routes would give an appropriate level of service.

 

[tbtc]

(Referring back to the OP!)

The Whitehall rule seems to be that anything other than London-originating traffic is not worthy of 'proper' IC stock, but would combining NW England-Scotland into ICWC be too sensible for the DfT? An order of Pendolino variants to cover these and the Birmingham-Scotland routes would give an appropriate level of service.

In fairness, the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh service isn't busy enough to justify something like a Pendolino on the current frequency. Back when Class 47s hauled coaches on this route it was only a handful of services a day.

The 185s are too short for the Manchester Airport - Bolton - Preston stretch of the route but cope with a lot of the loads north of Preston. The other trouble is that some services are a lot busier than others, so whilst one train may justify six coaches, another service may only warrant two coaches.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In fairness, the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh service isn't busy enough to justify something like a Pendolino on the current frequency. Back when Class 47s hauled coaches on this route it was only a handful of services a day.

The 185s are too short for the Manchester Airport - Bolton - Preston stretch of the route but cope with a lot of the loads north of Preston. The other trouble is that some services are a lot busier than others, so whilst one train may justify six coaches, another service may only warrant two coaches.

ive only been on TPE north of preston twice and stood all the way both times. and i certainly wasnt the only one we nearly didnt get people on at oxenholme

 

[dave59]

Yes, by Pendolino variant I mean a shorter (perhaps 5 car?) version with hopefully a very different interior to the present edition.

With the trend of speeding up the London-Glasgow trains there will be more demands on the Birmingham/Manchesters. A uniform fleet in terms of performance would maximise paths available north of Preston.

 

[Bevan Price]

For comparison, digging out a Summer 2000 timetable...

Northbound weekday services:

From Manchester Piccadilly,

0611 VT to Edinburgh, shown as having a trolley. Would this have been a 158?
1121 VT (ex-Bournemouth) to Glasgow Central
1303 VT (ex-Plymouth) to Aberdeen via Edinburgh
1521 VT (ex-Brighton) to Edinburgh
1904 VT (ex-Bristol TM) to Edinburgh

More trains now, but fewer standard class seats per day between Manchester & Scotland, since a VT loco hauled set had twice as many seats as a 185.

Bevan

 

[tbtc]

More trains now, but fewer standard class seats per day between Manchester & Scotland, since a VT loco hauled set had twice as many seats as a 185.

Bevan

Then again some of these were taken up by passengers doing journeys between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Birmingham/ South Coast (rather than a dedicated service for Manchester)...

 

[Invincibles]

0611 was a 158 whenever I used it, came back south at night (or at least another 158 diagram did) forming the 2210 from Preston to Manchester and 2207 Preston to Birmingham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does the cost to First TPE of running two Class 185 units to give a 6-car formation rule out the use of these, when certain known services are known to carry high passenger loadings at certain times of the day. Could there be a reduction of engines running on the second set to cut down the operating costs? I remember reading of this being done in a European context some time ago.

 

[MCR247]

Does the cost to First TPE of running two Class 185 units to give a 6-car formation rule out the use of these, when certain known services are known to carry high passenger loadings at certain times of the day. Could there be a reduction of engines running on the second set to cut down the operating costs? I remember reading of this being done in a European context some time ago.

No, just no. As if you actually just said that.

Have you actually not yet learn, that there isn't a load of stock lying doing nothing

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, just no. As if you actually just said that.

Have you actually not yet learn, that there isn't a load of stock lying doing nothing

I was only asking if CERTAIN trains could be done...say one a day if that was the busyest. Are you saying that not one extra Class 185 unit is available per day and that the fleet as such, allowing for units being serviced, is fully committed every day? I also asked a question about the technical operational possibility of a second unit running with a reduction in the number of engines, as First TPE run such 2 x Class 185 sets together on the 0930 service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool and to Windemere, which splits at Preston. I just wondered would the second set would do this as far as Preston.

Your comment about "load of stock lying doing nothing" does not tally with the question that I originally asked that my question referred to and I object to the comment "Have you actually not yet learn" as if you consider me to be incapable of comprehending any railway operational fact. Your comment takes me back to my grammar school days in the 1950's when comments like this were frequently used to pupils by the teaching staff.

Just remember, there are people on this forum with hardly any technical knowledge in the railway industry but are interested in matters railway-connected and there are other people who are well versed in technical and operational railway matters, whose knowledge can be imparted in a friendly way to aid queries raised.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you saying that not one extra Class 185 unit is available per day and that the fleet as such, allowing for units being serviced, is fully committed every day?

That's pretty much true. TPE are fully committed when it comes to rolling stock there is almost no slack in the unit diagramming, thanks in part, to them being forced to run Manchester-Scotland services. TPE certainly don't have enough stock to be able to double up anymore services than they already do as if they did they would be doing it. The only day they would probably have excess stock would be Sunday.

I also asked a question about the technical operational possibility of a second unit running with a reduction in the number of engines.

Anything is possible. TPE units already run with what is called an Eco-Mode whereby one or two of the engines on board a unit are shut down when not needed. This could be whilst the unit is coasting or running downhill, indeed it's pretty common on the east side of the TPE to find units running around on two engines for nearly their whole run until they get to Leeds. I would suggest that if TPE can run with engines turned off they already do as the technology is already fitted. TPE are very keen on fuel savings using good driving techniques and Eco-Mode, there was a very interesting article on it in Modern Railways last August.

 

[Nym]

When the wires come up and allows the Manchester - Scotland services to become elctric then that will free some diagrams, but that should see the Airport - Windermere services returning, Manchester - Scotland uses err, 10 diagrams working it out on the back of a fag packet, windermere works out at 6. The real boost for TPE's fleet will be when BPN - MIA moves over to electric operation in 2019. The problem is that before then they'll be very overcrowded on TPE north. All I can think of is to get some 180s with TPE for the MIA - BPN route, and displace some of them 185s over to TPE North.

The only isolated fleet I can see in TPE's network is the TPE South network, and possibly Manchester - Hull. Either some more desiros or class 172s for that route. A full replacment of all diesel stock on the TPE south route would free up 8 units, Manchester - Hull another 7, and it wouldn't mean excess stock in the TPE fleet later, as the 172s could be deployed on any TPE route, but they will proberbly have a long future on TPE South, and if more are needed they could be intertwined with or replacing 185s on some of the NW Routes. 4 carrage 172s by the way, may have a better home on TPE NW or TPE N, but that would depend on the diagraming requirements.

 

[island]

It's a very good point, as Birmingham could become the London area's sixth major airport - which you could probably access in the same time as Luton/Stansted by HS2.

Seventh. You forgot Southend.

 

[Nym]

Eigth, you forgot London Oxford Airport

 

[tbtc]

When the wires come up and allows the Manchester - Scotland services to become elctric then that will free some diagrams, but that should see the Airport - Windermere services returning, Manchester - Scotland uses err, 10 diagrams working it out on the back of a fag packet, windermere works out at 6. The real boost for TPE's fleet will be when BPN - MIA moves over to electric operation in 2019. The problem is that before then they'll be very overcrowded on TPE north. All I can think of is to get some 180s with TPE for the MIA - BPN route, and displace some of them 185s over to TPE North.

The only isolated fleet I can see in TPE's network is the TPE South network, and possibly Manchester - Hull. Either some more desiros or class 172s for that route. A full replacment of all diesel stock on the TPE south route would free up 8 units, Manchester - Hull another 7, and it wouldn't mean excess stock in the TPE fleet later, as the 172s could be deployed on any TPE route, but they will proberbly have a long future on TPE South, and if more are needed they could be intertwined with or replacing 185s on some of the NW Routes. 4 carrage 172s by the way, may have a better home on TPE NW or TPE N, but that would depend on the diagraming requirements.

Will the Glasgow - Edinburgh electrification be completed before the Manchester - Blackpool electrification?

If its the Scottish one then there's potential for the 170s that currently run it to replace ScotRail 158s, these 158s to come down to EMT and then give EMT the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service (since they already serve Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Doncaster, Grimsby...), keeping a common fleet of 158s with the Liverpool - Norwich.

That then frees up a few TPE units to allow doubling up of the core Manchester - Leeds service (and may be quicker than waiting on wires to Blackpool).

I'm not sure about the need for a bi-hourly Manchester - Windermere service, if the Manchester - Preston/ Lancaster/ Oxenhome service is being beefed up with EMUs. Nice to have a direct link, sure, but is it really the best use of stock?

Also, talking of Windermere, I'd rather put a Pacer/Sprinter on that line as the three coach 185 would be more use on Manchester - Leeds (do you really need First Class/ Three Coach 100mph units on a branch line shuttle?), but that's just me...

 

[WestCoast]

Seventh. You forgot Southend.

You can't really call Southend at the moment a major passenger hub though, it's got Aer Arran and a weekly Flybe service. In 2-3 years time, that may well have changed somewhat. As for London Oxford:roll:.

Also, talking of Windermere, I'd rather put a Pacer/Sprinter on that line as the three coach 185 would be more use on Manchester - Leeds (do you really need First Class/ Three Coach 100mph units on a branch line shuttle?), but that's just me...

I agree, due to the major shortage of stock, I'm sure a Northern 150 (or even a 142) would suffice on the Oxenholme - Windermere shuttle. Yes, it would be less pleasant but desperate times and all that - those 185s are needed elsewhere!

 

[Nym]

Will the Glasgow - Edinburgh electrification be completed before the Manchester - Blackpool electrification?

If its the Scottish one then there's potential for the 170s that currently run it to replace ScotRail 158s, these 158s to come down to EMT and then give EMT the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service (since they already serve Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Doncaster, Grimsby...), keeping a common fleet of 158s with the Liverpool - Norwich.

That then frees up a few TPE units to allow doubling up of the core Manchester - Leeds service (and may be quicker than waiting on wires to Blackpool).

I'm not sure about the need for a bi-hourly Manchester - Windermere service, if the Manchester - Preston/ Lancaster/ Oxenhome service is being beefed up with EMUs. Nice to have a direct link, sure, but is it really the best use of stock?

Also, talking of Windermere, I'd rather put a Pacer/Sprinter on that line as the three coach 185 would be more use on Manchester - Leeds (do you really need First Class/ Three Coach 100mph units on a branch line shuttle?), but that's just me...

Handing the route over to EMT could help, and yes, Manchester - Scotland is planned for 2014

Manchester - Newton: 2014
Newton - Liverpool: 2015
Huyton - Wigan (Liverpool - Wigan via St Helens): 2016
Preston - Blackpool N: 2018
Manchester - Bolton - Preston: 2019 IIRC

Also, that path that used to run Manchester - Lancaster on an hourly pattern to either Barrow or Windermere, is very useful link from Lancaster to Manchester, and very heavily used between the two places, Windermere is no only a handy place to terminate this, but it's also a good tourist and business link for the Lakes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

looks like the 180's will definitely be going to FGW theres a link to an article in thr thread. so TPE are just gonna ahve to wait for a) electririfcation or b) a miracle (rolling stock order)

 

[tbtc]

Handing the route over to EMT could help, and yes, Manchester - Scotland is planned for 2014

Manchester - Newton: 2014
Newton - Liverpool: 2015
Huyton - Wigan (Liverpool - Wigan via St Helens): 2016
Preston - Blackpool N: 2018
Manchester - Bolton - Preston: 2019 IIRC

Also, that path that used to run Manchester - Lancaster on an hourly pattern to either Barrow or Windermere, is very useful link from Lancaster to Manchester, and very heavily used between the two places, Windermere is no only a handy place to terminate this, but it's also a good tourist and business link for the Lakes.

Thanks for the timetable - that's useful.

With the Lancaster - Manchester link continuing (by EMUs via Wigan) I'm less convinced of the need for a "via Bolton" version of this. Presumably the EMUs will be a good bit bigger, and certainly no less frequent than the TPE Scottish services.

I'm not anti-Windermere; maybe a morning DMU from Manchester and a teatime one back would work well, but at a time when we're struggling to cope with loadings on a lot of lines it does seem a bit of a luxury to have a 185 on it all day and reintroducing a direct bi-hourly service to Manchester.

 

[Nym]

OK, i'll rephrase that, Preston - Oxford Road via Chorley and Bolton is rediculously busy on and off peak and that link can't afford a loss of any services, so the xx:00 off airport service needs to continue, even if it terminates at Preston, or Lancaster (with some extended to Barrow as is now)

 

[tbtc]

OK, i'll rephrase that, Preston - Oxford Road via Chorley and Bolton is rediculously busy on and off peak and that link can't afford a loss of any services, so the xx:00 off airport service needs to continue, even if it terminates at Preston, or Lancaster (with some extended to Barrow as is now)

I'd agree with you there.

Hopefully taking the Lake District/ Scottish passengers away will mean more seats on some services through Bolton, but that line really needs a capacity boost.

 

[Nym]

Keeping it with TPE and extending some services onwards to Barrow to keep a clockface timetable as far as Preston would proberbly be best, some of them could be posted on to Blackpool N instead of Barrow, once the Scotland service is seperate, TPE could move to a standard 2tph Airport - Preston, continuing or not to either Blackpool or Barrow or Windermere, or terminating.

 

[tbtc]

Keeping it with TPE and extending some services onwards to Barrow to keep a clockface timetable as far as Preston would proberbly be best, some of them could be posted on to Blackpool N instead of Barrow, once the Scotland service is seperate, TPE could move to a standard 2tph Airport - Preston, continuing or not to either Blackpool or Barrow or Windermere, or terminating.

Rightly or wrongly, my guess is that (post electrification) there won't be a direct daytime service between Manchester and Barrow/ Windermere. They'll want to keep the line south of Preston EMU run where possible (unavoidable that some DMUs from Blackburn/ Southport use it south of Bolton, of course).

 

[Striker]

Seventh. You forgot Southend.

Eigth, you forgot London Oxford Airport

He said major London airport.

And it's "probably" not "proberbly".

 

[dave59]

Rightly or wrongly, my guess is that (post electrification) there won't be a direct daytime service between Manchester and Barrow/ Windermere. They'll want to keep the line south of Preston EMU run where possible (unavoidable that some DMUs from Blackburn/ Southport use it south of Bolton, of course).

There was a short news item in MR a while back stating that the DfT was "interested" in adding Windermere to the electrification scheme.