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Signal Sighting for 140mph a Myth?

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Rhydgaled

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One thing that occurs to me, if it was as easy to fix as installing a solid fifth aspect to the signals rather than using a flashing green surely BR would have given it a go? They must have had a good reason to not bother seeing as they spent all this money on IC225s that then couldn't operate at their designed speed. The people that BR employed to do testing and trails like this weren't idiots so you have to think that they probably thought of this themselves and ruled it out for a good reason.
I'm guessing the flashing green was done by re-wiring the existing green aspect of the existing signals. I'd expect adding an extra aspect of a different colour would have required replacing the signals altogether, which seeing as BR weren't excatly rolling in money (hence APT and INTERCITY 250 not going ahead) was probablly deemed to expensive. Also, the following post sounds like a good explanation too.

Actually that's quite a good point mumrar, one of the main problems on the southern (KGX-PBO) and middle portions (GRA-NCL) is the interaction of 125mph expresses with local or inter-regional services (top speed probaly 100mph or less) and with frieght services as well. One of the reasons that the ECML struggles for capacity is trying to fit all this together in some sort of coherent structure. Imagine throwing in another group of trains all running at 140mph, the impact on available paths would surely be pretty severe.

Here's hoping IC225s get moved to GWML so they can make use of ERTMS to hit 140mph (I'm thinking, with the extra 2tph to Bristol TM, the London - Swansea services could go non-stop between Reading and Bristol Parkway, which should give a nice 140mph stretch from just west of Reading to Swindon). Now, of course we have to get wires to Swansea first, but that's another agrument.
 
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sprinterguy

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Actually that's quite a good point mumrar, one of the main problems on the southern (KGX-PBO) and middle portions (GRA-NCL) is the interaction of 125mph expresses with local or inter-regional services (top speed probaly 100mph or less) and with frieght services as well. One of the reasons that the ECML struggles for capacity is trying to fit all this together in some sort of coherent structure. Imagine throwing in another group of trains all running at 140mph, the impact on available paths would surely be pretty severe.
Yeah, signal sighting distances aren’t the only obstacle in the way of 140mph running: You’ve also got to consider the squeeze on paths that would be caused through having a faster running flight of trains, which is another good reason why 125mph has been stuck with as the maximum. Although if the ECML had gone to 140mph with the introduction of the IC225s, then the long distance HST services, with a maximum speed of 125mph, could be pathed as limited stop services (Such as KX, possibly Newark, Doncaster/York, Newcastle & Edinburgh) while the faster electric services would have a few more stops and so the timings along the route would balance out. In actual fact this is already the case with the Aberdeen and Inverness services, and has been for many years, I suspect since the ECML electric timetable was introduced. Is this a carry over from plans for 140mph running? Although of course, this still completely fails to address the problems caused by sharing tracks with the considerably slower regional, local and freight services on the route.

It wouldn’t be possible to use as many HSTs on the shorter runs over mainly electrified routes, or the diagrams entirely over the “core” electrified ECML, though as they wouldn’t be able to keep time with the 140mph IC225 schedules. There would have to have been a larger fleet of 225s, perhaps 35 sets (I doubt that the few minutes saved on schedules would release any additional trains over the actual current requirement), not only to cover more of what are actually HST diagrams, but also to compensate for the higher failure rate that would ensue with day in, day out 140mph running. I wouldn’t have fancied the class 91s chances if the ECML had been passed for such speeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm guessing the flashing green was done by re-wiring the existing green aspect of the existing signals. I'd expect adding an extra aspect of a different colour would have required replacing the signals altogether, which seeing as BR weren't excatly rolling in money (hence APT and INTERCITY 250 not going ahead) was probablly deemed to expensive. Also, the following post sounds like a good explanation too.

Here's hoping IC225s get moved to GWML so they can make use of ERTMS to hit 140mph (I'm thinking, with the extra 2tph to Bristol TM, the London - Swansea services could go non-stop between Reading and Bristol Parkway, which should give a nice 140mph stretch from just west of Reading to Swindon). Now, of course we have to get wires to Swansea first, but that's another agrument.
The installation of ERTMS doesn’t guarantee the introduction of 140mph running. There would still be infrastructure enhancements and alterations required (Although the GWML would probably be one of the easiest routes to apply such changes to), and the planners would still have to consider the additional pathing conflicts that a faster flight of trains would bring. It’s just a more advanced form of signalling.

And as far as I know, an initial 140mph capability is not included in the Hitachi IEP specification, with 125mph being the top whack (Although reportedly the design could be adapted for the higher speed). As for 225s going to the GWML, that’s just a dream: The GWML already has new IEP trains assigned to it, this is unlikely to change.
 

Rhydgaled

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The installation of ERTMS doesn’t guarantee the introduction of 140mph running. There would still be infrastructure enhancements and alterations required (Although the GWML would probably be one of the easiest routes to apply such changes to), and the planners would still have to consider the additional pathing conflicts that a faster flight of trains would bring. It’s just a more advanced form of signalling.

And as far as I know, an initial 140mph capability is not included in the Hitachi IEP specification, with 125mph being the top whack (Although reportedly the design could be adapted for the higher speed). As for 225s going to the GWML, that’s just a dream: The GWML already has new IEP trains assigned to it, this is unlikely to change.
I did say that's another argument! Fact is, I find the idea of bi-mode IEP totally unacceptable, so wires have to go to Swansea, and eventually Cheltenham too. Now, I expect there will be some cost incured clearing these routes, and Swansea to Carmarthen, for IEP's longer carriges. If you used IC225s on these routes you wouldn't need to clear the routes for longer coaches and could save a bit to put towards electrfication to Swansea and Cheltenham. Also, it looks as if IEP equals no Pembroke Dock and Tenby service, due to 26m coaches and a very tight tunnel and/or curved platform at Narberth. IC225s should be able to negate that issue too. As far as I know, there are no non-Intercity services between Reading and Swindon, so all stock would be 140mph capable IEPs (assuming 'minor modifications' really is minor) (IEPs would handle the Didcot and Swindon stops, which with their faster acceleration would not cause as much as a problem) or IC225s (which would never call at Didcot and only stop at Swindon on the Cheltenham runs). Reading - Paddington would have to stay at the current linespeed due to stoppers sharing the route and IC125s on services to Taunton, Devon and Cornwall.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm sorry but I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again, IEP is not going to replace the IC225s on the ECML anytime soon. Even in the days when it looked like we would be getting 1,000 IEP carriages IC225 replacement wasn't until the mid 2020s anyway. Now it looks like an IC225 replacement has been completely dropped from the plans. With this in mind IC225s will more than likely spend the rest of their mainline days working on the ECML and won't be replaced until the late 2020s. So you idea of transferring them across to the GWML is a non-starter for the simple reason that there is no stock to replace them and there won't be any available anytime soon (certainly not soon enough for replacement in the next 8 years or so which your plan would require).
 
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Rhydgaled

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I'm sorry but I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again, IEP is not going to replace the IC225s on the ECML anytime soon. Even in the days when it looked like we would be getting 1,000 IEP carriages IC225 replacement wasn't until the mid 2020s anyway. Now it looks like an IC225 replacement has been completely dropped from the plans. With this in mind IC225s will more than likely spend the rest of their mainline days working on the ECML and won't be replaced until the late 2020s. So you idea of transferring them across to the GWML is a non-starter for the simple reason that there is no stock to replace them and there won't be any available anytime soon (certainly not soon enough for replacement in the next 8 years or so which your plan would require).

Well, apart from Pembroke Dock (which would loose services) the GWML services I would put IC225s on would have IEPs anyway (but bi-mode ones). Simply make those IEPs electric and send them to East Coast rather than GW.
 

Rhydgaled

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What about the Oxford services?

Sorry, I forgot about the slower services to Oxford. However I haven't heard anything about any electric rolling stock planned for Great Western other than IEP and cascaded stock from Thameslink on the Thames Valley branches (which I think refers to Windsor, Marlow, Henley and Greenford, one of which is apparently not being wired and will stick with 166/165 operation). Therefore to my knowlage I didn't know of anything other than IEP planned to operate between Reading and Swindon. What is the plan regarding the Oxford slows? 166/165 under the wires, IEP or more ex Thameslink stock? Isn't Reading - Didcot 4-tracked anyway? If so, the fast could still be 140 couldn't they?
 

sprinterguy

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Sorry, I forgot about the slower services to Oxford. However I haven't heard anything about any electric rolling stock planned for Great Western other than IEP and cascaded stock from Thameslink on the Thames Valley branches (which I think refers to Windsor, Marlow, Henley and Greenford, one of which is apparently not being wired and will stick with 166/165 operation). Therefore to my knowlage I didn't know of anything other than IEP planned to operate between Reading and Swindon. What is the plan regarding the Oxford slows? 166/165 under the wires, IEP or more ex Thameslink stock? Isn't Reading - Didcot 4-tracked anyway? If so, the fast could still be 140 couldn't they?
Electrification is going to Oxford, so there'll be ex-Thameslink stock on the Oxford stoppers.
 

The Planner

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Running at 140mph isn't going to save you much unless you are doing it non-stop for a fair distance, it is only 3 seconds a mile over 125mph. Reading to Swindon is 41 miles give or take a bit so you have got 2 minutes, if you include stopping at either or both it eats into that 2 minutes.
 
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I'm guessing the flashing green was done by re-wiring the existing green aspect of the existing signals. I'd expect adding an extra aspect of a different colour would have required replacing the signals altogether, which seeing as BR weren't excatly rolling in money (hence APT and INTERCITY 250 not going ahead) was probablly deemed to expensive. Also, the following post sounds like a good explanation too.



Here's hoping IC225s get moved to GWML so they can make use of ERTMS to hit 140mph (I'm thinking, with the extra 2tph to Bristol TM, the London - Swansea services could go non-stop between Reading and Bristol Parkway, which should give a nice 140mph stretch from just west of Reading to Swindon). Now, of course we have to get wires to Swansea first, but that's another agrument.

Like the xx.15 past the odd hours one when the HST services first started.
 

swt_passenger

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...cascaded stock from Thameslink on the Thames Valley branches (which I think refers to Windsor, Marlow, Henley and Greenford, one of which is apparently not being wired and will stick with 166/165 operation).

None of those branches are being wired AFAICT. I think when it comes to electrification announcements they have always meant 'Thames Valley services' except the branches, ie various Newbury and Oxford stopping services.
 

Rhydgaled

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None of those branches are being wired AFAICT. I think when it comes to electrification announcements they have always meant 'Thames Valley services' except the branches, ie various Newbury and Oxford stopping services.

Perhaps my information came from Labour's version of the scheme, that also went to Swansea. Alternativly, I've found an old post here which may have been where I got that idea from.
 
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