Could London Overground run between Chingford and Walthamstow Central, during the Hackney Downs line closure?

[Taunton]

Moderator note: Split from

16 day line closure at Hackney Downs - London Overground suspension and WAML diversions, 20th Jul - 4th Aug

Haven't seen this posted elsewhere. Line closure and replacement of the Downs Park Road overbridge north of Hackney Downs station for 16 days between Saturday 20th July and Sunday 6th August...

www.railforums.co.uk

One wonders why LO cannot, at least, run between Chingford and Walthamstow Central, for the Underground, or even Clapton, getting trains to/fro via the Coppermill curve.

 

[BJames]

One wonders why LO cannot, at least, run between Chingford and Walthamstow Central, for the Underground, or even Clapton, getting trains to/fro via the Coppermill curve.

I was thinking this about Chingford-Walthamstow - seems a shame not to at least have a shuttle of some form for this period.

I notice a line in that release that LO Enfield/Cheshunt services may have different timetables - it's 6tph in the peak (4tph Enfield, 2tph Cheshunt) and I wonder what might change during this and the diversions, or whether it will just be minor adjustments to the timings.

A recent evening peak with GA Seven Sisters diversions seems to have (just) worked with a fullish timetable, but Seven Sisters was rammed - crowds coming up from Victoria line were funnelled out of the tube to the event day Overground entrance round the corner, and northbound LO services were ordered not to call due to the overcrowding. This was only the most recent occasion mind you and there's been other diversions where it has been hectic but nowhere near as busy as that.

 

[TFN]

One wonders why LO cannot, at least, run between Chingford and Walthamstow Central, for the Underground, or even Clapton, getting trains to/fro via the Coppermill curve.

I’m not sure trains could run for 16 days without seeing a depot?

 

[D7666]

I’m not sure trains could run for 16 days without seeing a depot?

25 kV sections ? The whole Chingford route might be off ?

Those are questions, not statements.

 

[higthomas]

I’m not sure trains could run for 16 days without seeing a depot?

Couldn't they get out via a reverse at Clapton? Not a great solution, but just once a day for depot rotation should work?

 

[OliverH68]

Couldn't they get out via a reverse at Clapton? Not a great solution, but just once a day for depot rotation should work?

They might use the block to also do some other maintenance whilst the line is shut, good time for large chunks of work to go in and get done.

 

[Class 170101]

Couldn't they get out via a reverse at Clapton? Not a great solution, but just once a day for depot rotation should work?

No power most likely but also no pointwork to do said reversal at Clapton Jn

They might use the block to also do some other maintenance whilst the line is shut, good time for large chunks of work to go in and get done.

You would hope so.

Can't see why the Bishops Stortford to Stratford services are suspended, surely these could run alongside the Hertford to Stratford services? There are usually 4 tph via Lea Bridge anyway.

Usually when Cambridge / Stansted services are diverted via Seven Sisters the journey takes longer than running via Tottenham Hale due to following all stations LO services, so probably run out of trains and drivers if you run the Bishops Stortford services too.

 

[DJS76]

No power most likely but also no pointwork to do said reversal at Clapton Jn


You would hope so.


Usually when Cambridge / Stansted services are diverted via Seven Sisters the journey takes longer than running via Tottenham Hale due to following all stations LO services, so probably run out of trains and drivers if you run the Bishops Stortford services too.

I still think there must be a better solution than send 2 x Cambridge and 4 x Stansted Express via Seven Sisters. Seven Sisters is a horrible station, narrow staircases and not even sure if there is an escalator down from the platforms to the tube ticket hall. Also think the platforms are only 8 car length and very narrow in places, a few big suitcases is all it will take for it to get very congested.
I guess there is no chance of reducing the Stansted Express to 2tph from Liverpool Street and diverting through Stratford to Tottenham Hale and onwards from there, especially as the closure is at the start of the summer holidays. Also, with the Bishops Stortford to Stratford service being suspended, assume this means that stations between Enfield Lock and Bishops Stortford will have a reduced service, with Roydon and Harlow Mill only seeing 1tph, unless the Cambridge services make extra stops.

 

[BJames]

I still think there must be a better solution than send 2 x Cambridge and 4 x Stansted Express via Seven Sisters. Seven Sisters is a horrible station, narrow staircases and not even sure if there is an escalator down from the platforms to the tube ticket hall. Also think the platforms are only 8 car length and very narrow in places, a few big suitcases is all it will take for it to get very congested.

No down escalators from National Rail/Overground platforms at Seven Sisters. Up escalator to northbound Platform 2, but no escalators on Platform 1 at all (years ago there was only one very narrow staircase, there are two now including a wider one but as you say quite narrow in places - particularly on the southbound there is quite a pinchpoint on the platform towards the front three coaches which go past the office).

 

[Kite159]

I guess there are no paths available to send the Stansted Connect services nonstop Liverpool Street - Tottenham Hale via Stratford to avoid the overcrowding concerns at Seven Sisters?

In my experience those trains normally empty out southbound and fill up northbound at Tottenham Hale due to the LU connection being a lot faster than staying on to Liverpool Street. Even reduced to 2tph off-peak.

 

[Leisurefirst]

No down escalators from National Rail/Overground platforms at Seven Sisters. Up escalator to northbound Platform 2, but no escalators on Platform 1 at all (years ago there was only one very narrow staircase, there are two now including a wider one but as you say quite narrow in places - particularly on the southbound there is quite a pinchpoint on the platform towards the front three coaches which go past the office).

No step-free access to/from the Victoria Line either once at ticket office level.
Stairs before the escalator from Central London, after the escalator towards Central London.

 

[Class15]

I guess there are no paths available to send the Stansted Connect services nonstop Liverpool Street - Tottenham Hale via Stratford to avoid the overcrowding concerns at Seven Sisters?

In my experience those trains normally empty out southbound and fill up northbound at Tottenham Hale due to the LU connection being a lot faster than staying on to Liverpool Street. Even reduced to 2tph off-peak.

Weekend closures between Hackney Downs and Bethnal Green have seen all the Stansted services going via Stratford and using the ‘B’ lines to Bow Junction.

 

[Class 170101]

I guess there are no paths available to send the Stansted Connect services nonstop Liverpool Street - Tottenham Hale via Stratford to avoid the overcrowding concerns at Seven Sisters?

Too many Freights standing at Stratford Platform 10A waiting path onto the GEML and some of them further stand foul over Stratford Central Junction preventing access between Platforms 11 and 12 and Bow Junction via the Temple Mills Lines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2024 ==

Weekend closures between Hackney Downs and Bethnal Green have seen all the Stansted services going via Stratford and using the ‘B’ lines to Bow Junction.

Less Freight at the weekend but its still a longer run via Stratford or Seven Sisters than via Clapton.

 

[greatkingrat]

Usually when Cambridge / Stansted services are diverted via Seven Sisters the journey takes longer than running via Tottenham Hale due to following all stations LO services, so probably run out of trains and drivers if you run the Bishops Stortford services too.

Current off-peak timetable has 9 sets for Stansted, 7 sets for Cambridge, 4 sets for Hertford, and 6 sets for Stratford (interworking Meridian Water and Bishops Stortford). Total 26

Amended timetable has 10 sets for Stansted, 8 sets for Cambridge, and 4 sets for Stratford-Hertford. Total 22

So they should be able to run Meridian Water-Stratford as well, although Bishops Stortford might be pushing it.

 

[Instinct04]

I was thinking this about Chingford-Walthamstow - seems a shame not to at least have a shuttle of some form for this period.

I notice a line in that release that LO Enfield/Cheshunt services may have different timetables - it's 6tph in the peak (4tph Enfield, 2tph Cheshunt) and I wonder what might change during this and the diversions, or whether it will just be minor adjustments to the timings.

A recent evening peak with GA Seven Sisters diversions seems to have (just) worked with a fullish timetable, but Seven Sisters was rammed - crowds coming up from Victoria line were funnelled out of the tube to the event day Overground entrance round the corner, and northbound LO services were ordered not to call due to the overcrowding. This was only the most recent occasion mind you and there's been other diversions where it has been hectic but nowhere near as busy as that.

Were any other services laid on to stop at the stations missed out (E.g local stations between Seven Sisters - Cheshunt/Enfield Town?

 

[Alfie1014]

Current off-peak timetable has 9 sets for Stansted, 7 sets for Cambridge, 4 sets for Hertford, and 6 sets for Stratford (interworking Meridian Water and Bishops Stortford). Total 26

Amended timetable has 10 sets for Stansted, 8 sets for Cambridge, and 4 sets for Stratford-Hertford. Total 22

So they should be able to run Meridian Water-Stratford as well, although Bishops Stortford might be pushing it.

It’s likely to be less about having the units and more about not having drivers, with journey times extended diagram requirements are almost certainly increased with possibly not enough capacity to cover even the modest provision for any Meridian Water shuttles.

 

[BJames]

Were any other services laid on to stop at the stations missed out (E.g local stations between Seven Sisters - Cheshunt/Enfield Town?

On the above occasion I mentioned it was Seven Sisters itself that was skip stopped due to the overcrowding (I can confirm this 100% - I was there). Most LO services ran as usual just skipping Seven Sisters northbound. What I really should have done is gone southbound one stop to Stamford Hill and double backed but instead I waited it out and once we were finally let on the platform, an empty overground train destined for Cheshunt arrived. I changed at Edmonton for the Enfield branch, where the next train (which had also skipped Seven Sisters) was 15 minutes behind.

This week, the plan has ended up becoming 2tph Enfield and 2tph Cheshunt all day, including in the peak. Extremely busy on Tues/Weds/Thu in particular last week and same again today. 8 carriages all day though including off peak and weekends.

Generally though, the diversion seems to be working ok - well staffed at Seven Sisters which helps, and people seem aware of the diversions with only those tourists heading to Stansted seeming confused.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The entire Chingford branch is closed for the entire blockade. They are doing other bits of work all along the Chingford branch.

 

[Instinct04]

If you wanted to get from seven sisters (when the northbound LO services were not stopping) to Edmonton green, or Southbury, or bush hill park what would you do?

On the above occasion I mentioned it was Seven Sisters itself that was skip stopped due to the overcrowding (I can confirm this 100% - I was there). Most LO services ran as usual just skipping Seven Sisters northbound. What I really should have done is gone southbound one stop to Stamford Hill and double backed but instead I waited it out and once we were finally let on the platform, an empty overground train destined for Cheshunt arrived. I changed at Edmonton for the Enfield branch, where the next train (which had also skipped Seven Sisters) was 15 minutes behind.

This week, the plan has ended up becoming 2tph Enfield and 2tph Cheshunt all day, including in the peak. Extremely busy on Tues/Weds/Thu in particular last week and same again today. 8 carriages all day though including off peak and weekends.

Generally though, the diversion seems to be working ok - well staffed at Seven Sisters which helps, and people seem aware of the diversions with only those tourists heading to Stansted seeming confused.

 

[clockend]

On the above occasion I mentioned it was Seven Sisters itself that was skip stopped due to the overcrowding (I can confirm this 100% - I was there). Most LO services ran as usual just skipping Seven Sisters northbound. What I really should have done is gone southbound one stop to Stamford Hill and double backed but instead I waited it out and once we were finally let on the platform, an empty overground train destined for Cheshunt arrived. I changed at Edmonton for the Enfield branch, where the next train (which had also skipped Seven Sisters) was 15 minutes behind.

This week, the plan has ended up becoming 2tph Enfield and 2tph Cheshunt all day, including in the peak. Extremely busy on Tues/Weds/Thu in particular last week and same again today. 8 carriages all day though including off peak and weekends.

Generally though, the diversion seems to be working ok - well staffed at Seven Sisters which helps, and people seem aware of the diversions with only those tourists heading to Stansted seeming confused.

And the 2tph Enfield service not advertised online anywhere aside from live departures.

 

[BJames]

If you wanted to get from seven sisters (when the northbound LO services were not stopping) to Edmonton green, or Southbury, or bush hill park what would you do?

Station staff were advising people to take local buses, but what anyone with some initiative could have done is taken the southbound stopping overground to Stamford Hill and doubled back. I did not want to take local buses as it was so busy already. I was debating walking back round to the Victoria line (we had been moved to the event entrance at this point, so we'd exited Seven Sisters station) to go via Finsbury Park and Enfield Chase. I didn't double back as I mistakenly thought I'd probably do this and they'd start stopping at Seven Sisters again. By the time I decided it was probably worth it in the end, they let us upstairs.

And the 2tph Enfield service not advertised online anywhere aside from live departures.

There were some communications around reduced service on Network Rail: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....d-line-for-16-days-from-this-saturday-20-july

It does say the following (although doesn't specifically mention 2tph).

The Enfield Town and Cheshunt lines will have a revised timetable, with fewer trains running at peak times and other services retimed.

Looking on the TfL website now it doesn't say reduced service on London Overground during peak times on these routes, it just states the Hackney to Chingford closure.