No letter received - GTR

[Al2023]

Hi, I got caught short faring in late October 2023 but still haven’t received a letter from GTR.

I provided all my details and both emails linked to my Trainline account and was told someone will call or email me but still haven’t received anything almost 4 months later. I terribly regret my actions and unfortunately I short faired a lot over a two year period.

Should I be worried that I haven’t received the letter yet? I’m happy to pay whatever out of court settlement they give me but can’t afford to go to court as I will loose my job.

Thanks

 

[John R]

They have six months to prosecute you, so there is still some time left. From what you say, the investigation may be taking longer if they have found evidence of multiple offences over the last couple of years.

I assume you did give them a correct address, and haven’t moved in the meantime?

 

[Al2023]

They have six months to prosecute you, so there is still some time left. From what you say, the investigation may be taking longer if they have found evidence of multiple offences over the last couple of years.

I assume you did give them a correct address, and haven’t moved in the meantime?

Thanks for your reply.

I definitely gave the correct address, email address and telephone number. What worries me is that Royal Mail in my area have been terrible over the past few months due to being short staffed (especially over the Christmas period) and were currently receiving mail once a week.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for your reply.

I definitely gave the correct address, email address and telephone number. What worries me is that Royal Mail in my area have been terrible over the past few months due to being short staffed (especially over the Christmas period) and were currently receiving mail once a week.

Generally, our advice is to wait for the railway to be in touch with you. But in these specific circumstances (you know you have been in the wrong for some time: you are prepared to admit this: you hope to settle out of court and don't want to be taken to court by default; your postal service is particularly unreliable) I think there's a case for trying to reopen communications.

GTR's website offers gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com as a contact point, although mainly for advising of changes of address (see https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/t...r query is regarding,out to the address above.). But a courteous email explaining that you haven't heard and checking whether you have missed anything might be worthwhile.

 

[Al2023]

Generally, our advice is to wait for the railway to be in touch with you. But in these specific circumstances (you know you have been in the wrong for some time: you are prepared to admit this: you hope to settle out of court and don't want to be taken to court by default; your postal service is particularly unreliable) I think there's a case for trying to reopen communications.

GTR's website offers gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com as a contact point, although mainly for advising of changes of address (see https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/on-board/penalty-fares#:~:text=If your query is regarding,out to the address above.). But a courteous email explaining that you haven't heard and checking whether you have missed anything might be worthwhile.

Thank you for your reply. I may reach out to them towards the end of this week

 

[Camsus]

If you were stopped in late October, that's approx 3.5 months ago. From what I've seen on this forum, it seems pretty normal for GTR to take that long to make contact, so I wouldn't worry too much at this stage

 

[Al2023]

Hi all

Finally received an email from GTR today.

Dear xxx,

I am writing to you to regarding the statement you gave on xx to a Govia Thameslink Railway Fraud Control Officer at London Bridge railway station.

You were found not to be in possession of a valid rail ticket for your journey between xxx and London Bridge and were subsequently interviewed under caution. An investigation undertaken by GTR’s Fraud Department has established that you avoided a significant sum in rail fares over a prolonged period of time.

Travel Fraud costs the rail industry over £240 million per year and Govia Thameslink Railway has a zero-tolerance approach to fare evasion on our network. We always ask the courts to impose the maximum penalty for offenders, which can include the following:

- A Criminal Record
- Fine of up to £1000
- Prison Sentence
- Suspended Sentence
- Community Service
- Compensation
- Costs

I would like to discuss the matter further with you and would therefore request that you respond to this letter within 7 days using the email address above. Failure to respond to this letter will result in your case being referred to the Prosecutions Department.


Yours sincerely,


Any help on how I should approach this would be greatly appreciated. Not sure whether to reply directly or contact a solicitor.

Also they got the date of when I was interviewed at London Bridge wrong. They stated December in their letter but it was actually October when I was stopped.

Thanks

 

[John R]

So the key point of their letter is that they have brought up the issue of wider scale fare evasion, rather than just the one instance they stopped you. Given this, you would be best advised to acknowledge this and confirm that they are correct in your response.

Your response should be very apologetic (but not in a cringy Ai generated fashion), promise to always buy the correct fare for your journey going forward, and ask very nicely if they will consider offering an out of court settlement as opposed to taking court action.

You’ll know from your account how many times you have done this, and would be well advised to work out the full Anytime Single fare for each journey you took whilst short faring. Multiply this by the number of journeys and add around £150 for an admin fee, and make sure that you have access to funds to pay this very quickly if they do offer you a settlement, as you’ll only have 14 days to do so typically.

 

[Al2023]

So the key point of their letter is that they have brought up the issue of wider scale fare evasion, rather than just the one instance they stopped you. Given this, you would be best advised to acknowledge this and confirm that they are correct in your response.

Your response should be very apologetic (but not in a cringy Ai generated fashion), promise to always buy the correct fare for your journey going forward, and ask very nicely if they will consider offering an out of court settlement as opposed to taking court action.

You’ll know from your account how many times you have done this, and would be well advised to work out the full Anytime Single fare for each journey you took whilst short faring. Multiply this by the number of journeys and add around £150 for an admin fee, and make sure that you have access to funds to pay this very quickly if they do offer you a settlement, as you’ll only have 14 days to do so typically.

Thank you!

I have drafted this letter:


Dear Mr xxx

Thank you for your letter dated 3rd April 2024.

Firstly, I want to offer my sincere apologies for not being able to produce a valid ticket for my entire journey and deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused.

On the 18th of October, I travelled with a ticket that did not cover my entire journey and it is true that this was not the first time I had done so. I'd like to offer my sincerest apologies for intentionally avoiding the full fare. It was wrong of me to do so, and I am truly remorseful.

I take full responsibility for my actions and assure you that I have learned from my mistake and have purchased a valid ticket for all my journeys ever since. This incident has served as a valuable lesson for me and I understand how foolish I was.

I now understand that avoiding paying the entire cost of the journey is disrespectful to everyone who pays the full fare and seriously harms the rail industry.

I would very much appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action and would welcome the opportunity to pay the outstanding fares in addition to your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,


Im thinking to send that today and will go through my Trainline account this evening to document each journey.

Please let me know your thoughts. I really appreciate it

 

[John R]

Let’s wait for others to comment. It feels to have had a bit of help from AI (?) but otherwise seems pretty good to me.

 

[Al2023]

Thank you, will do

I was a mixture of a few different responses I've seen on the forum with some amendments of my own to tone it down a bit

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you!

I have drafted this letter:


Dear Mr xxx

Thank you for your letter dated 3rd April 2024.

Firstly, I want to offer my sincere apologies for not being able to produce a valid ticket for my entire journey and deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused.

On the 18th of October, I travelled with a ticket that did not cover my entire journey and it is true that this was not the first time I had done so. I'd like to offer my sincerest apologies for intentionally avoiding the full fare. It was wrong of me to do so, and I am truly remorseful.

I take full responsibility for my actions and assure you that I have learned from my mistake and have purchased a valid ticket for all my journeys ever since. This incident has served as a valuable lesson for me and I understand how foolish I was.

I now understand that avoiding paying the entire cost of the journey is disrespectful to everyone who pays the full fare and seriously harms the rail industry.

I would very much appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action and would welcome the opportunity to pay the outstanding fares in addition to your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,


Im thinking to send that today and will go through my Trainline account this evening to document each journey.

Please let me know your thoughts. I really appreciate it

This looks OK to me I would suggest. Makes the key points, ends on a clear 'ask' ie for a settlement, admits to what they know (ie other evasion).

 

[Al2023]

This looks OK to me I would suggest. Makes the key points, ends on a clear 'ask' ie for a settlement, admits to what they know (ie other evasion).

Thank you. Will wait to see if other comment and will send shortly.

Thank you for your help

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. Will wait to see if other comment and will send shortly.

Thank you for your help

Yes, definitely worth you waiting for a few different forum users to have a look over it before you send it, if you are not hard up against the response deadline.

 

[Al2023]

Yes, definitely worth you waiting for a few different forum users to have a look over it before you send it, if you are not hard up against the response deadline.

Thankfully not, only received their email this morning so have plenty of time to respond, just anxious to have this all concluded :/

 

[WesternLancer]

Thankfully not, only received their email this morning so have plenty of time to respond, just anxious to have this all concluded :/

You can probably give it 24 hours then if that suits you. Obv appreciate it is good to get it resolved / moved on of course.

 

[Titfield]

Yes I think that letter covers all the points in a suitable way.

Just a couple of minor points from my perspective: 1. Not sure about the sentence about it being a valuable lesson. It just doesnt quite sound right. IMHO you only learn the lesson when you have actually paid the outstanding fares and any admin fee that put on top. 2. Not sure about disrespectful. Whilst I agree it shows a lack of respect, more importantly it is unfair on passengers who pay the correct fare.

Hope this helps.

 

[Al2023]

Yes I think that letter covers all the points in a suitable way.

Just a couple of minor points from my perspective: 1. Not sure about the sentence about it being a valuable lesson. It just doesnt quite sound right. IMHO you only learn the lesson when you have actually paid the outstanding fares and any admin fee that put on top. 2. Not sure about disrespectful. Whilst I agree it shows a lack of respect, more importantly it is unfair on passengers who pay the correct fare.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Titfield, it definitely helps.

I’ve reworded it slightly below:


Dear Mr x

Thank you for your letter dated 3rd April 2024.

I want to offer my sincere apologies for not being able to produce a valid ticket for my entire journey and deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused.

On the 18th of October 2023, I travelled with a ticket that did not cover my entire journey and it is true that this was not the first time I had done so. I'd like to offer my sincerest apologies for intentionally avoiding the full fare. It was wrong of me to do so, and I am truly remorseful.

I take full responsibility for my actions and assure you that I have learned from my mistake and have purchased a valid ticket for all my journeys ever since. This error in judgement has taught me a great lesson and will continue to do so as I've realised how foolish I was.

I now understand that avoiding paying the entire cost of the journey is unfair and disrespectful to everyone who pays the full fare and seriously harms the rail industry.

I would very much appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action and would welcome the opportunity to pay the outstanding fares in addition to your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[Llanigraham]

Drop the "Firstly", it does nothing to add to the letter, and there isn't a "secondly".

 

[Al2023]

Noted

Thanks Titfield, it definitely helps.

I’ve reworded it slightly below:


Dear Mr x

Thank you for your letter dated 3rd April 2024.

Firstly, I want to offer my sincere apologies for not being able to produce a valid ticket for my entire journey and deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused.

On the 18th of October 2023, I travelled with a ticket that did not cover my entire journey and it is true that this was not the first time I had done so. I'd like to offer my sincerest apologies for intentionally avoiding the full fare. It was wrong of me to do so, and I am truly remorseful.

I take full responsibility for my actions and assure you that I have learned from my mistake and have purchased a valid ticket for all my journeys ever since. This error in judgement has taught me a great lesson and will continue to do so as I've realised how foolish I was.

I now understand that avoiding paying the entire cost of the journey is unfair and disrespectful to everyone who pays the full fare and seriously harms the rail industry.

I would very much appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action and would welcome the opportunity to pay the outstanding fares in addition to your administrative costs in dealing with this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,

Noted, thank you. Have removed it

 

[BundeeA]

I had similar recently. They will offer a settlement. I owned over £4k from 8 months of short ticketing with GTR. Their costs were £300.
My settlement was 1/3 up front and the rest over 12 months.

 

[John R]

I had similar recently. They will offer a settlement. I owned over £4k from 8 months of short ticketing with GTR. Their costs were £300.
My settlement was 1/3 up front and the rest over 12 months.

Thank you for some interesting info. Are you willing to share was the £4k calculated based on full Anytime single fares, the balance of fares you should have paid, or some other basis?

 

[Al2023]

I had similar recently. They will offer a settlement. I owned over £4k from 8 months of short ticketing with GTR. Their costs were £300.
My settlement was 1/3 up front and the rest over 12 months.t

I had an email back today saying they’re open to a settlement as long as I cooperate and am honest. I mentioned that I have itemised ever time I’ve short fared and am happy to share if they want it to help them calculate the settlement but haven’t heard back. Their exact wording was “consisting of any rail fares that have been avoided” so hoping this is just the shortfall of the short fare and full fare.

 

[Titfield]

I had an email back today saying they’re open to a settlement as long as I cooperate and am honest. I mentioned that I have itemised ever time I’ve short fared and am happy to share if they want it to help them calculate the settlement but haven’t heard back. Their exact wording was “consisting of any rail fares that have been avoided” so hoping this is just the shortfall of the short fare and full fare.

The usual policy is to charge the standard single fare for each journey where the fare was avoided. No discounts (railcard) are applied nor is any credit for the fare already paid.

 

[Hadders]

I had similar recently. They will offer a settlement. I owned over £4k from 8 months of short ticketing with GTR. Their costs were £300.
My settlement was 1/3 up front and the rest over 12 months.

Thanks for sharing. It would be good to know a bit more about your case to be able to assist others in the future. Train companies generally don't allow settlements to be paid in installments (we have seen some isolated cases recently).

It would be great if you could tell us about your case in a new thread (so as not to take this thread off-topic) or alternatively send me a conversation message (you need to have made five posts before you can send a conversation message) although I'll ask an Administrator if they can override this for you.

 

[Camsus]

The usual policy is to charge the standard single fare for each journey where the fare was avoided. No discounts (railcard) are applied nor is any credit for the fare already paid.

GTR generally apply day return fares, including off-peak if applicable. Any fares that were originally paid will be deducted, leaving the fares that are outstanding. As you say, railcard discounts are not valid

 

[Hadders]

GTR generally apply day return fares, including off-peak if applicable. Any fares that were originally paid will be deducted, leaving the fares that are outstanding. As you say, railcard discounts are not valid

GTR are certainly more ‘reasonable’ than most but we shouldn’t assume this will always be the case.

I always advise people seeking our advice that anytime fares are used with no credit given for the fares purchased to give a ‘worst’ scenario.

 

[Camsus]

GTR are certainly more ‘reasonable’ than most but we shouldn’t assume this will always be the case.

I always advise people seeking our advice that anytime fares are used with no credit given for the fares purchased to give a ‘worst’ scenario.

Certainly does no harm to prepare people for a worst case scenario, and most of the advice provided here is very sound in regards to letter responses etc.

Charging single fares for fare evasion settlements is something many TOCs do, however I can say confidently GTR usually apply return fares. Similarly, not taking into account the fares paid is common with other TOC's, but GTR generally take these into account

 

[furlong]

Charging single fares for fare evasion settlements is something many TOCs do, however I can say confidently GTR usually apply return fares. Similarly, not taking into account the fares paid is common with other TOC's, but GTR generally take these into account

Indeed, and I'd contend that GTR is the one getting this right, rather than the others. Judging by what we see on this forum, if at some point in the future this practice of offering settlements ends up under external scrutiny perhaps as part of the wider fall-out from the Post Office scandal, while we do see some rough edges from time to time, as a whole GTR isn't a company that's going to have much difficulty defending what it's currently doing.

 

[Titfield]

Link to discussion in new thread re inconsistency.