Avanti West Coast Cancellations

[John R]

I wonder whether the substantial increase in payments will shift the balance as to how much TOCs will rely on RDW or instead increase the number of staff made available, even if it means some days a driver isn’t called upon to work.

 

[dk1]

I wonder whether the substantial increase in payments will shift the balance as to how much TOCs will rely on RDW or instead increase the number of staff made available, even if it means some days a driver isn’t called upon to work.

Rest Day Working is sanctioned by ASLEF in agreement that esrablishments are filled and driver training takes place. Train operators have to adhere to this.

 

[AndrewE]

Rest Day Working is sanctioned by ASLEF in agreement that esrablishments are filled and driver training takes place. Train operators have to adhere to this.

But can the employer be made to honour the agreement (other than by the DfT?) If ASLEF find that the agreement is being ignored, what sanction have they got? They can withdraw from it, which will be reported as them not acting in good faith - and their members will lose money too.

 

[dk1]

But can the employer be made to honour the agreement (other than by the DfT?) If ASLEF find that the agreement is being ignored, what sanction have they got? They can withdraw from it, which will be reported as them not acting in good faith - and their members will lose money too.

That's how it works. If the TOC doesn't conform then it's withdrawn. Keeps them in check. Members RDW money doesn't come into it.

 

[muz379]

Well I was referring to a specific toc, but I can think of others where the pay talks are always before other grades, always, why is that?
Also once the drivers pay is sorted the other grades get the rest, no axe to grind just a reality of kpis and privatisation.
Some signalmen may get good overtime benefits but nothing like that at all.

I can think of many TOC's where for many years the percentage rise has been the same for drivers as it has been for all other non management grades . Bar those on lower pay actually who usually get an uplift of a set value often called an underpin . Indeed at some TOC's non management grade pay increases are a joint forum of the 4 trade unions that represent non management grade rail staff .

But either way that was what happened in the past , in the current world the RMT members have recieved a no strings pay rise for the same year that ASLEF members are still in dispute over . So actually currently the inverse of what you suggest is happening .

*Signallers

I wasn't just referring to signallers , there are other grades in operations at NWR who have more generous enhancements than signallers .

Signalmen don’t earn what drivers do per hour, saying they do as they doing 12 hours is disingenuous. Even then it’s not £600 but that wasn’t my point, my point was and is other grades will get a lower pay increase due to drivers getting the lions share, I include all toc’s in this and not solely ones in dispute.
It’s bargaining power no more no less.

Actually perhaps not Avanti drivers but there is very little difference between the hourly rate for a Grade 9 signaller / grade 10 SSM and drivers at some TOC's .

Of course as I allude to above there are grades in operations at NWR that are paid more than signallers as well .

 

[Red Rover]

I can think of many TOC's where for many years the percentage rise has been the same for drivers as it has been for all other non management grades . Bar those on lower pay actually who usually get an uplift of a set value often called an underpin . Indeed at some TOC's non management grade pay increases are a joint forum of the 4 trade unions that represent non management grade rail staff .

But either way that was what happened in the past , in the current world the RMT members have recieved a no strings pay rise for the same year that ASLEF members are still in dispute over . So actually currently the inverse of what you suggest is happening .

*Signallers

I wasn't just referring to signallers , there are other grades in operations at NWR who have more generous enhancements than signallers .



Actually perhaps not Avanti drivers but there is very little difference between the hourly rate for a Grade 9 signaller / grade 10 SSM and drivers at some TOC's .

Of course as I allude to above there are grades in operations at NWR that are paid more than signallers as well

Signallers, sorry old habits.
How many grade 9’s are there across the board?

 

[43066]

But it is, the money given to drivers first and what’s left is given to others.

That’s simply not what happens; as noted, RMT have secured a pay rise in this dispute, ASLEF haven’t! So it’s demonstrably untrue.

Signalmen don’t earn what drivers do per hour, saying they do as they doing 12 hours is disingenuous.

Not disingenuous at all, and with respect you’re showing your own lack of knowledge. It is a reality that higher grade signallers earn the same as drivers at many TOCs; they also get shift allowances and wont be far off what Avanti are getting (who also get more than most drivers).

Signalmen don’t earn what drivers do per hour, saying they do as they doing 12 hours is disingenuous. Even then it’s not £600 but that wasn’t my point, my point was and is other grades will get a lower pay increase due to drivers getting the lions share, I include all toc’s in this and not solely ones in dispute.
It’s bargaining power no more no less.

That’s a simplistic way of looking at it. There isn’t one finite pot that different grades are competing for; the amount of money made available is entirely down to politics (see TfL).

Of course other grades have less bargaining power, but that’s because of the simple reality that the jobs, although important, are less skilled and take much less time to train up than drivers and signallers. It isn’t because money that would have been allocated to them has been stolen by the drivers.

I don’t know any RMT members who would disagree with that, and trying to drive a wedge between grades serves no purpose. If you want to be paid like a driver, you are always free to apply to go driving!

 

[CAF397]

I believe OLR member Northern didn't get a TPE style RDW agreement a few months ago. They must feel aggrieved if the Avanti deal is based on the TPE deal.

 

[Red Rover]

That’s simply not what happens; as noted, RMT have secured a pay rise in this dispute, ASLEF haven’t! So it’s demonstrably untrue.



Not disingenuous at all, and with respect you’re showing your own lack of knowledge. It is a reality that higher grade signallers earn the same as drivers at many TOCs; they also get shift allowances and wont be far off what Avanti are getting (who also get more than most drivers).



That’s a simplistic way of looking at it. There isn’t one finite pot that different grades are competing for; the amount of money made available is entirely down to politics (see TfL).

Of course other grades have less bargaining power, but that’s because of the simple reality that the jobs, although important, are less skilled and take much less time to train up than drivers and signallers. It isn’t because money that would have been allocated to them has been stolen by the drivers.

I don’t know any RMT members who would disagree with that, and trying to drive a wedge between grades serves no purpose. If you want to be paid like a driver, you are always free to apply to go driving!

When I started a CO3 was near the same as a driver, I’m far from driving a wedge, KPI’s since privatisation have made drivers indispensable to the industry, not for others.
The industry only wants cleaners and drivers, I’ve been in and around the railways for over 30 years so I know what signallers, drivers, guards, platform and ticket office staff earn, even the grades in the AMO’s, drivers wages bar none have gone up hugely since 1995 compared to their fellow workers.
And saying apply to be a driver is a modern railway term if you don’t mind me saying, we should all be fighting for salary increases similar to them but quite simply that’s in no way possible due to resources being totally and utterly aligned to KPI’s as I said previously.
Drivers are treated differently and there’s no twos way about it, drivers I know also acknowledge this, it’s varies from random well done packages to pay remuneration to overtime and days in lieu, it’s a two tier railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

I believe OLR member Northern didn't get a TPE style RDW agreement a few months ago. They must feel aggrieved if the Avanti deal is based on the TPE deal.

All drivers will go for this now or at the next pay deal.
Aslef should be demanding more drivers to be trained.

 

[dk1]

When I started a CO3 was near the same as a driver, I’m far from driving a wedge, KPI’s since privatisation have made drivers indispensable to the industry, not for others.
The industry only wants cleaners and drivers, I’ve been in and around the railways for over 30 years so I know what signallers, drivers, guards, platform and ticket office staff earn, even the grades in the AMO’s, drivers wages bar none have gone up hugely since 1995 compared to their fellow workers.
And saying apply to be a driver is a modern railway term if you don’t mind me saying, we should all be fighting for salary increases similar to them but quite simply that’s in no way possible due to resources being totally and utterly aligned to KPI’s as I said previously.

Best I earned as a CO3 in the mid 90s was £26k but I worked on a 24hr cover job in the maintenance depot and used to work overtime as a train announcer & fiddling my hours to get around Hidden to ensure 12hrs rest. Was good money but unlike now as a driver I don’t need to do half the hours for all the money perks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Oh and I also got redundancy travel that I really fell on my feet with. Good old BR & it’s add ons.

 

[Red Rover]

Best I earned as a CO3 in the mid 90s was £26k but I worked on a 24hr cover job in the maintenance depot and used to work overtime as a train announcer & fiddling my hours to get around Hidden to ensure 12hrs rest. Was good money but unlike now as a driver I don’t need to do half the hours for all the money perks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Oh and I also got redundancy travel that I really fell on my feet with. Good old BR & it’s add ons.

Definitely ha ha, lodge, travelling, shift allowance if I remember rightly, all gone and sold off.

 

[dk1]

Definitely ha ha, lodge, travelling, shift allowance if I remember rightly, all gone and sold off.

As a crossing keeper before that we’d ensure we did ‘finish offs’ at remote locations thus booking continuous shifts with walking time through the night even though we slept in the best of the resident crossing keepers huts ready for the following days early shift. Good and financially rewarding times but you had to put the hours in for it.

 

[Moonshot]

Having just made a journey from Euston to Manchester, I made the following observations.

The platform at Euston wasn't announced until some 7 minutes before departure. This created a bit of a scrum going down the ramp. No tickets were checked.

Train left 3 minutes late, and was then subject to further signal checks between Euston and Watford Junction.

Shop in coach c ( which was where I was actually sat ) was only partially operational due to broken coffee machine.

Train manager made no attempt to actually check tickets. If he had , he may well have found the person in sat near me was actually on the wrong train.

Train lost further time resulting in arrival at Piccadilly some 20 minutes late. It was actually being turned round straight away so no time for cleaning etc.

No tickets checked at barriers at Piccadilly.

The outbound journey which I made at weekend was flawless.

Clearly standards do vary from train to train......

 

[Red Rover]

My best year was 98 I think, £28,000, the basic was about £13,000 or so could be wrong on that as it was so long ago.

 

[Taunton]

Having just made a journey from Euston to Manchester, I made the following observations.

The platform at Euston wasn't announced until some 7 minutes before departure.

I did the same yesterday as well, round trip Euston to Manchester.

At 7am all disorganised. Apparently a signal failure in Wembley sidings delaying the first trains getting down. So platforms ended up not being displayed until after scheduled departure time, whereupon the usual rush. I actually can't remember the last WCML trip I took which did not have a significant disruption. At least we left, a series of other departures around this time had last-minute cancellations.

Same on the return, was as if they had never caught up all day, and services were just being dispatched when they could. On the 20-minute frequency from Manchester led to trains effectively running near to the next departure, with all the confusion about reservations and Advances as you can imagine. Makes a nonsense of a Turn Up And Go frequency mixed in with train specifics, and substantial delays. Being late, got right behind an (on time) stopper from Stockport to Macclesfield, and ended up of course losing far more time again.

Passengers with Advances for the next train who had (quite reasonably) boarded this one when it turned up at Stockport were being "let off" (with a caution). Would be amusing to receive a fine and/or have to buy a new ticket, but also to then get it all back with Delay Repay!

 

[Leisurefirst]

I just found this (our train Euston to Liverpool next Saturday 6th at 06.33 is cancelled) quite by chance my scrolling down an e-mail headed "Set off with Avanti..." ironically about "making your journey as comfortable as possible" and "wanting to get to know me a bit better".
Quite the way to let me know.
Out of interest, though will probably still make the journey on the next train instead, I had booked our return journeys using Seatfrog's Avanti Superfare.
Would I have the right to a refund if I wanted it on the returns if I didn't travel outwards (booked directly via AWC) given that they are booked via two different websites?

 

[E6007]

I just found this (our train Euston to Liverpool next Saturday 6th at 06.33 is cancelled) quite by chance my scrolling down an e-mail headed "Set off with Avanti..." ironically about "making your journey as comfortable as possible" and "wanting to get to know me a bit better".
Quite the way to let me know.
Out of interest, though will probably still make the journey on the next train instead, I had booked our return journeys using Seatfrog's Avanti Superfare.
Would I have the right to a refund if I wanted it on the returns if I didn't travel outwards (booked directly via AWC) given that they are booked via two different websites?

Don't forget that day will be affected by an overtime ban and the strike the day before. According to Real Time Trains, first two trains to Liverpool are at 07:43 and 09:43. Presumably the cancellation of the 06:33 (and 08:43) are due to that.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Don't forget that day will be affected by an overtime ban and the strike the day before. According to Real Time Trains, first two trains to Liverpool are at 07:43 and 09:43. Presumably the cancellation of the 06:33 (and 08:43) are due to that.

Indeed
Plan to get the 07:43, just wondering where I stood regarding the returns being Superfare bookings if I chose not to travel?

 

[philthetube]

Rest Day Working is sanctioned by ASLEF in agreement that esrablishments are filled and driver training takes place. Train operators have to adhere to this.

This has been true for a long time, so why is there a driver shortage?

 

[Horizon22]

This has been true for a long time, so why is there a driver shortage?

Issues / lack of driver instructors perhaps?

 

[dk1]

This has been true for a long time, so why is there a driver shortage?

Avanti where hopeless training during the pandemic then had lots of drivers retire and took their eye off the ball. Then industrial relations fell apart and they are then going to get zero cooperation from driver instructors. Fabulous own goal this one.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Avanti where hopeless training during the pandemic then had lots of drivers retire and took their eye off the ball. Then industrial relations fell apart and they are then going to get zero cooperation from driver instructors. Fabulous own goal this one.

That seems like a FirstGroup issue as TPE also had that issue during the pandemic.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Don’t forget that since the pandemic hit, all recruitment and training has had to be approved by the DfT. Avanti was one of the TOCs where the DfT weren’t in favour of pro-active recruitment. COVID also killed the training programmes throughout the industry.

 

[dk1]

Don’t forget that since the pandemic hit, all recruitment and training has had to be approved by the DfT. Avanti was one of the TOCs where the DfT weren’t in favour of pro-active recruitment. COVID also killed the training programmes throughout the industry.

Absolutely didn’t kill off training. Here at Greater Anglia it stopped for no more than a few weeks. Classes restarted, trainee drivers and DIs worked in ‘bubbles’ all agreed with ASLEF & during 2021 we passed out a record number of newly qualified drivers. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2024 ==

I think this year there are seven full driver training courses at Norwich alone.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

More correctly, where expenditure is allowed there’s a way…

 

[dk1]

More correctly, where expenditure is allowed there’s a way…

Seems odd as we have never stopped and also never have a driver cover issue. Seeing a service cancelled due to lack of traincrew would make the local news this way.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Seems odd as we have never stopped and also never have a driver cover issue. Seeing a service cancelled due to lack of traincrew would make the local news this way.

Each TOC has different annual business plans agreed with the DfT with Dft setting different priorities for each TOC.

 

[dk1]

Each TOC has different annual business plans agreed with the DfT with Dft setting different priorities for each TOC.

The common denominator in any rail industry chaos & upset seems to be the DfT.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Absolutely didn’t kill off training. Here at Greater Anglia it stopped for no more than a few weeks. Classes restarted, trainee drivers and DIs worked in ‘bubbles’ all agreed with ASLEF & during 2021 we passed out a record number of newly qualified drivers. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2024 ==

I think this year there are seven full driver training courses at Norwich alone.

Greater Anglia was a commendable exception but at most TOCs Driver Training stopped for ages and the bubbles that were subsequently created didn’t cover the training that was required.

And then only when the DfT told the TOC they could spend any money on driver training.

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia was a commendable exception but at most TOCs Driver Training stopped for ages and the bubbles that were subsequently created didn’t cover the training that was required.

And then only when the DfT told the TOC they could spend any money on driver training.

Was absolutely criminal what went on with most of them. Completely needless.