Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[daodao]

Doncaster airport was late to the game, which is one key reason why it failed financially. If one was planning the siting of English airports from scratch, then it would be a very sensible site for a single airport to serve Yorkshire/Lincolnshire/Nottinghamshire and Northern Derbyshire, with no airports at Castle Donington, Kirmington, Middleton St. George or Yeadon. However, these were all established before Finningley aerodrome was converted into an airport.

There were (and still are) too many airports in England, partly due to the vanity of local authorities in wanting an airport on their doorstep to promote their locality. Following various closures over the last 15 years, there is now only a good case for closing Tees-side (Middleton St. George) and Bournemouth (Hurn). Most of the other remaining ones have some rationale for their continued existence. However, the idea of re-opening Doncaster airport is daft and should be quietly ditched after the forthcoming local/mayoral election.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is the £138million question. I hear TUI are quite short on aircraft since leaving DSA and are unlikely to be able to commit to a new base. Jet2 are an outside possibility because they’ve reached a level of maturity where their customer base is incredibly loyal, but it still poses the question of why would they when they happily fly from LBA and EMA already, and both airports are investing heavily in their passenger facilities at the moment.

Jet2 will not be interested in DSA unless it demonstrated it could fill enough flights, which it did not in its entire lifespan. They are quite a pragmatic company, not known for taking too many risks but instead opting for safe bets, which DSA certainly isn't.

Question marks over easyjet, purely because it’s an open market for them in Yorkshire. There is a chance that should an experienced airport operator be at the helm of a DSA 2.0, they could influence easyjet enough to take a risk and go all in. Problem with that is their lacklustre support received when they attempted it twice previously, and they maintain a token presence at LBA I believe as a means of communication as it’s highly plausible they’re a target airline for when LBA has sufficient space to host them. However, with very little presence east of the Pennines they are a best case scenario for high volume growth at the moment. But just look at what happened at Southend as a cautionary tale.

easyJet are an unknown element, but as with Jet2 they need to fill flights and would be unlikely to consider being the first operator at DSA.

Wizz might return, but knowing Wizz they might stay at LBA. Anyone’s guess.

Wizz have reportedly said that they have been able to grow some of their core routes since moving to LBA, so they are unlikely to want to move back to DSA.

Ryanair, who knows. They got an excellent deal before but still couldn’t be convinced to base there. One of their largest bases in the U.K. is at EMA, and they’re growing at LBA. Is there room?

If Ryanair couldn't make it work at DSA, well who could?

KLM, perhaps they could be tempted across from Humberside. However they have operated from Humberside in various guises for 50 years. Is a change likely considering the clamping down on slots at AMS? It didn’t work out well when they tried to set up from LPL and EMA so what makes DSA an attractive proposition for them?

As with Wizz, if their business is steady on Humberside why would they move?

DSA's prime failing is that there simply isn't enough demand to attract and keep major commercial airlines interested an making money. Its an airport nobody really needs, and serves only to feed the egos of a few Labour councillors in South Yorkshire.

Interestingly, TUI has recently signed a deal with Ryanair actually to sell TUI holidays with Ryanair flights. If the fees are priced right, I could definitely see Ryanair operating flights into DSA from their bases in Spain / Portugal / Greece in the same way they do to airports like Teeside, Newquay and Norwich. It’s much lower risk than basing aircraft at DSA, although probably will mean the airport needs continual subsidy.

As above, Ryanair will only fly from there if they can fill flights. They couldn't previously so its highly unlikely they'll try again.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Interestingly, TUI has recently signed a deal with Ryanair actually to sell TUI holidays with Ryanair flights. If the fees are priced right, I could definitely see Ryanair operating flights into DSA from their bases in Spain / Portugal / Greece in the same way they do to airports like Teeside, Newquay and Norwich. It’s much lower risk than basing aircraft at DSA, although probably will mean the airport needs continual subsidy.

They already fly out of LBA though. Why not expand their presence there?

 

[WestCoast]

As above, Ryanair will only fly from there if they can fill flights. They couldn't previously so its highly unlikely they'll try again.

I am neutral on DSA, only ever used it once when it was open but I will say that Ryanair can fill flights from almost anywhere to sunny destinations as they drop their prices to very low levels to stimulate demand. I doubt their DSA flights were not well loaded but probably not profitable hence dropped.

They will run these types of routes though if there’s a financial incentive from the airport owner. There’s a precedent at Teeside (another former Peel owned airport) which is arguably a bit of a vanity project for a mayor and they have routes to sun destinations from there despite also having a base up the road in Newcastle. Whether it’s a good use of taxpayer cash for this sort of thing well that’s for local taxpayers and voters to decide!

 

[Bantamzen]

I am neutral on DSA, only ever used it once when it was open but I will say that Ryanair can fill flights from almost anywhere to sunny destinations as they drop their prices to very low levels to stimulate demand. I doubt their DSA flights were not well loaded but probably not profitable hence dropped.

They will run these types of routes though if there’s a financial incentive from the airport owner. There’s a precedent at Teeside (another former Peel owned airport) which is arguably a bit of a vanity project for a mayor and they have routes to sun destinations from there despite also having a base up the road in Newcastle. Whether it’s a good use of taxpayer cash for this sort of thing well that’s for local taxpayers and voters to decide!

Generally speaking Ryanair make their profits through filling their flights, as well as keeping their craft in the air as much as possible. Hence the regular site of passengers queuing on the apron whilst the craft are cleaned and readied.

But as far as the Doncaster tax payers go, they are being misled by their councillors. They are being told that its as simple as open the airport up, and flights will come flocking in as will all sorts of new businesses. What they aren't aware of is the amount of money needed just to get the airport viable, let alone profitable. Peel threw some £240 million at it and it never once turned a profit. The amount of investment needed to make an airport successful is crazy high, and in reality if Doncaster CC want it to happen they are going to have to sink a hell of a lot into it, money they don't have.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Generally speaking Ryanair make their profits through filling their flights, as well as keeping their craft in the air as much as possible. Hence the regular site of passengers queuing on the apron whilst the craft are cleaned and readied

Don't forget ancillary revenue from add ons and onboard purchases.

 

[pug1]

Generally speaking Ryanair make their profits through filling their flights, as well as keeping their craft in the air as much as possible. Hence the regular site of passengers queuing on the apron whilst the craft are cleaned and readied.

But as far as the Doncaster tax payers go, they are being misled by their councillors. They are being told that its as simple as open the airport up, and flights will come flocking in as will all sorts of new businesses. What they aren't aware of is the amount of money needed just to get the airport viable, let alone profitable. Peel threw some £240 million at it and it never once turned a profit. The amount of investment needed to make an airport successful is crazy high, and in reality if Doncaster CC want it to happen they are going to have to sink a hell of a lot into it, money they don't have.

Exactly this. There is a train of thought that the two remaining bidders in the tender for operator process are not the ones the council favoured, which would suggest bidders have withdrawn. It’s also been suggested by some that the order of the day will be very small, sustainable growth and it may not actually look much like DSA 1.0 in actuality. Of course it’s all conjecture at the moment, but the people blaming Peel conveniently neglect the fact that the airport has been owned and operated by a global airport investor/operator, during which time the airport saw its quietest years. Any bidder will be well aware of the airports history and its market.

Peel did throw a lot of money at it, they did have some of the most competitive packages on offer in spite of the low start point in passenger numbers where other airports had established. Volume didn’t work, so a new operation will have to think of other ways to make it viable.

 

[mpthomson]

It depends on the scale. Someone like e.g. Wright Aviation could well receive a lot of orders for 150 seat hybrids in the next decades and require more slots than are available at existing airports.

This really is clutching at straws to justify a 9 figure investment that's required to get DSA back to standard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2024 ==

Jet2 had almost 1 million more ATOL licensed passengers than TUI last year, that is inclusive of the TUI passengers using other airlines.

With regards to aircraft manufacturing, not sure who would want to build a factory at an aspiring international airport? Who are Wright Aviation? The investment by Hybrid Air Vehicles is not related to DSA and it would not be able to be on an airport site as airships do not mix well with conventional aircraft.

The commercial director of eastern airways has issued caution today, ‘it’s not going to be a flurry of airlines clambering over each other to be in there first, a seriously considered plan is required to establish how financial and operational sustainability can be achieved’. Well said that man, someone who has experience in the field speaking out finally!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2024 ==


In fairness the money they plan on investing into this scheme is intended for economic regeneration and such is the way these pots are allocated cannot be used for public services. I agree though, it doesn’t exactly send out a good message to the council tax payers who are seeing £millions being pumped into this and then getting notification of rates rises.

Problem with using the money intended for economic stimulation on an airport? Airports do not stimulate an economy, they reflect the economic strength of the region they serve. It is not Manchester and never will be, the market just does not exist, but no matter how much you say this stuff still they continue.

How would I invest the money? Create better, faster and more reliable surface links to Manchester airport. Local pride is an expensive thing.

And alongside all of that they then have to find an operator prepared to take the airport on. That will be very dificault given the history of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2024 ==

Interestingly, TUI has recently signed a deal with Ryanair actually to sell TUI holidays with Ryanair flights. If the fees are priced right, I could definitely see Ryanair operating flights into DSA from their bases in Spain / Portugal / Greece in the same way they do to airports like Teeside, Newquay and Norwich. It’s much lower risk than basing aircraft at DSA, although probably will mean the airport needs continual subsidy.

I can't, as it all it would do is to take passengers away from their already established flights from EMA and LBA. The entire catchment area for DSA (that isn't cows and wheat fields) is already covered by those two airports.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This really is clutching at straws to justify a 9 figure investment that's required to get DSA back to standard.

I know, I am just trying to rationalise the investment from the council. I'm hoping it isn't just porkbarrelling.

 

[pug1]

This really is clutching at straws to justify a 9 figure investment that's required to get DSA back to standard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2024 ==


And alongside all of that they then have to find an operator prepared to take the airport on. That will be very dificault given the history of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2024 ==


I can't, as it all it would do is to take passengers away from their already established flights from EMA and LBA. The entire catchment area for DSA (that isn't cows and wheat fields) is already covered by those two airports.

The Council seem confident that discussions with an operator(s) are progressing well, so it’s just a case of waiting and seeing what transpires I suppose. It’s been said by people close to those running the process that the two remaining bidders for render are not the ones the council wanted, which would suggest that there have been some withdrawals from the process.

Oliver Coppard was quick to point out that the FOBC still needs approving. So once an operator is appointed, the FOBC will need to be submitted which will then be scrutinised before the funding can be released. We are to assume Oliver Coppard will be voted back in in May, otherwise there could be a change in policy.

Lots still to do yet, the lease was the easy bit and I bet it won’t be valid until an operator is in place and funding has been approved.

 

[mpthomson]

The Council seem confident that discussions with an operator(s) are progressing well, so it’s just a case of waiting and seeing what transpires I suppose. It’s been said by people close to those running the process that the two remaining bidders for render are not the ones the council wanted, which would suggest that there have been some withdrawals from the process.

Oliver Coppard was quick to point out that the FOBC still needs approving. So once an operator is appointed, the FOBC will need to be submitted which will then be scrutinised before the funding can be released. We are to assume Oliver Coppard will be voted back in in May, otherwise there could be a change in policy.

Lots still to do yet, the lease was the easy bit and I bet it won’t be valid until an operator is in place and funding has been approved.

However, and to quote Christine Keeler, he (ie an elected mayor) would say that, wouldn’t he?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmm..... To be built in Doncaster...? Albeit on the other side on Doncaster? Interesting coincidence in the timing of this, wouldn't you think...?

Doncaster giant airship plant to create 1,200 jobs

Hybrid Air Vehicles aims to make 24 ships a year at the site in Doncaster.

www.bbc.co.uk

An airship maker has announced plans to build the giant vehicles in Doncaster, creating more than 1,200 jobs.
Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV) said the Airlander 10 hybrid ship would be built at the Carcroft Common site, with the first set to enter service from 2028.
The 320ft (98m) Airlander 10 is a new type of "ultra-low emissions aircraft" capable of carrying 100 passengers or 10 tonnes of payload, the firm said.
HAV said it would "transform what's possible for sustainable air travel".
Carcroft Common is a 50-hectare site that City of Doncaster Council had earmarked for economic growth.

 

[Bantamzen]

Hmm..... To be built in Doncaster...? Albeit on the other side on Doncaster? Interesting coincidence in the timing of this, wouldn't you think...?

Doncaster giant airship plant to create 1,200 jobs

Hybrid Air Vehicles aims to make 24 ships a year at the site in Doncaster.

www.bbc.co.uk

Joined up thinking by the council there then, lease closed airport and look to have the one viable aviation business case build on the other side of the city.... Now the big question is, will Sheffield council allow any advertising of them given their recent decision to ban (amongst other things) airline advertising on council resources and assets...

 

[edwin_m]

Airships don't need a conventional airport. There isn't one at Cardington where the AirLander prototype has been based.

 

[pug1]

Airships don't need a conventional airport. There isn't one at Cardington where the AirLander prototype has been based.

They also don’t mix well with conventional aircraft so having it on the DSA site whilst having ambitious plans to reopen that to commercial traffic probably wouldn’t be an ideal solution. The council should be commended for attracting that investment to Doncaster.

 

[Bantamzen]

Airships don't need a conventional airport. There isn't one at Cardington where the AirLander prototype has been based.

They also don’t mix well with conventional aircraft so having it on the DSA site whilst having ambitious plans to reopen that to commercial traffic probably wouldn’t be an ideal solution. The council should be commended for attracting that investment to Doncaster.

Oh I know, but frankly the chances of of commercial flights ever using DSA are pretty low to zero. So I'd have thought that it would be an ideal location, away from any flights whatsoever, with plenty of room for hangers etc.

 

[pug1]

Oh I know, but frankly the chances of of commercial flights ever using DSA are pretty low to zero. So I'd have thought that it would be an ideal location, away from any flights whatsoever, with plenty of room for hangers etc.

Well as if we didn’t already know..

Jet2 boss rules out Gatwick launch and says no more new bases after Bournemouth

Steve Heapy has signalled an end to Jet2’s expansion into new UK bases following the announcement of a move into Bournemouth airport in 2025

www.ttgmedia.com

So that’s one that can probably be ruled out, at least for the next few years!

 

[mpthomson]

Well as if we didn’t already know..

Jet2 boss rules out Gatwick launch and says no more new bases after Bournemouth

Steve Heapy has signalled an end to Jet2’s expansion into new UK bases following the announcement of a move into Bournemouth airport in 2025

www.ttgmedia.com

So that’s one that can probably be ruled out, at least for the next few years!

He's on record as being quite scathing about DSA as well in terms of it catchment being fields rather than people.

 

[pug1]

He's on record as being quite scathing about DSA as well in terms of it catchment being fields rather than people.

I think that was actually Philip Meeson who has now stepped down from the board to retire. But yes he had stated that it the past.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Council seem confident that discussions with an operator(s) are progressing well, so it’s just a case of waiting and seeing what transpires I suppose. It’s been said by people close to those running the process that the two remaining bidders for render are not the ones the council wanted, which would suggest that there have been some withdrawals from the process.

Oliver Coppard was quick to point out that the FOBC still needs approving. So once an operator is appointed, the FOBC will need to be submitted which will then be scrutinised before the funding can be released. We are to assume Oliver Coppard will be voted back in in May, otherwise there could be a change in policy.

Lots still to do yet, the lease was the easy bit and I bet it won’t be valid until an operator is in place and funding has been approved.

It all sounds very Ben Houchen and Teesside Airport to me.

If I were a Doncaster ratepayer I’d be asking very pointed questions about who is paying for all of this…

 

[Killingworth]

It all sounds very Ben Houchen and Teesside Airport to me.

If I were a Doncaster ratepayer I’d be asking very pointed questions about who is paying for all of this…

However a lot seem to be bedazzled by foreign holidays to the sun from their local airport, destination not all that important. But it's the business travellers paying full fares to reach specific places on specific dates who most want it to reopen to regenerate the local economy. They'll not provide high enough loadings to encourage airlines to offer a wide enough range of destinations and times to lure them away from their current arrangements.

 

[mpthomson]

It all sounds very Ben Houchen and Teesside Airport to me.

If I were a Doncaster ratepayer I’d be asking very pointed questions about who is paying for all of this…

There's a council board paper from September last year that references the Ernst & Young financial viability report. The actual numbers are (unsurprisingly) not disclosed, but it states that the council would have to pick up what are described as 'substantial' reinstatement costs for the airport prior to any operator being willing to take it on. I've seen different figures for that thrown about but most are medium-high 8 figure to low 9 figure sums, and that the council would need to continue to subsidise it.

It's US style pork barrel politics at work and one of the issues with having elected mayors, unfortunately. The saga of both the airports is very similar.

 

[pug1]

There's a council board paper from September last year that references the Ernst & Young financial viability report. The actual numbers are (unsurprisingly) not disclosed, but it states that the council would have to pick up what are described as 'substantial' reinstatement costs for the airport prior to any operator being willing to take it on. I've seen different figures for that thrown about but most are medium-high 8 figure to low 9 figure sums, and that the council would need to continue to subsidise it.

It's US style pork barrel politics at work and one of the issues with having elected mayors, unfortunately. The saga of both the airports is very similar.

On another forum there are members who are active within the LBA Consultative Committee and one has take the time to post a detailed overview of this weeks meeting.

In it was mentioned by the LBA CEO of the progress at DSA and what impact that might bring to LBA. The short answer is not much, he emphasised how the airport lost over £170million in its 17 years of operation and that the Council had effectively promised to ringfence a huge amount of money on one asset that has a very real risk of becoming bankrupt within 5 years. He said the costs were £80million to reinstate the operation and a further £50million in subsidy to a private sector operator to run it. Not sure where he got the figure from but it’s not uncommon for industry figures to be privy to such information. He also cannot see where any growth from operators will come from. Wizz have apparently assured him they have no intention to move back to DSA if it reopens.

On the other hand, LBA are in discussions with an undisclosed US carrier to bring flights from a US city to LBA using A321 XLR equipment in 2026..

Airports have a far wider impact than merely the areas within a 20 mile radius. Their catchment areas converge and are complex in nature, and any airline in the crosshairs of a budding DSA operator will need a very convincing reason to add flights from there. It’s why meddling by local authorities tends to end badly. Exactly what they’re doing here.

 

[Chester1]

On another forum there are members who are active within the LBA Consultative Committee and one has take the time to post a detailed overview of this weeks meeting.

In it was mentioned by the LBA CEO of the progress at DSA and what impact that might bring to LBA. The short answer is not much, he emphasised how the airport lost over £170million in its 17 years of operation and that the Council had effectively promised to ringfence a huge amount of money on one asset that has a very real risk of becoming bankrupt within 5 years. He said the costs were £80million to reinstate the operation and a further £50million in subsidy to a private sector operator to run it. Not sure where he got the figure from but it’s not uncommon for industry figures to be privy to such information. He also cannot see where any growth from operators will come from. Wizz have apparently assured him they have no intention to move back to DSA if it reopens.

On the other hand, LBA are in discussions with an undisclosed US carrier to bring flights from a US city to LBA using A321 XLR equipment in 2026..

Airports have a far wider impact than merely the areas within a 20 mile radius. Their catchment areas converge and are complex in nature, and any airline in the crosshairs of a budding DSA operator will need a very convincing reason to add flights from there. It’s why meddling by local authorities tends to end badly. Exactly what they’re doing here.

It sounds like the plan is to blow £130m and then blame the Tories when Doncaster Council goes bankrupt!

The North West of England with 6.5 million people has two airports and frankly only needs one. Yorkshire and Humberside has a lower population and already has two airports despite the huge pull of Manchester airport across the pennines and a pull from East Midlands Airport too. I bet if the Lancashire Combined Authority gets a mayor they will want to reopen Blackpool.....

 

[westv]

It sounds like the plan is to blow £130m and then blame the Tories when Doncaster Council goes bankrupt!

The North West of England with 6.5 million people has two airports and frankly only needs one. Yorkshire and Humberside has a lower population and already has two airports despite the huge pull of Manchester airport across the pennines and a pull from East Midlands Airport too. I bet if the Lancashire Combined Authority gets a mayor they will want to reopen Blackpool.....

Humber what?!

 

[Killingworth]

It sounds like the plan is to blow £130m and then blame the Tories when Doncaster Council goes bankrupt!

The North West of England with 6.5 million people has two airports and frankly only needs one. Yorkshire and Humberside has a lower population and already has two airports despite the huge pull of Manchester airport across the pennines and a pull from East Midlands Airport too. I bet if the Lancashire Combined Authority gets a mayor they will want to reopen Blackpool.....

RAF Middleton St George, Teesside Airport, was in North Yorkshire so with Humberside there are 3.

 

[daodao]

RAF Middleton St George, Teesside Airport, was in North Yorkshire so with Humberside there are 3.

RAF Middleton St George, now Teesside Airport, was in County Durham pre-1974 and is now split between Stockton-on-Tees (formerly part of Cleveland from 1974 onwards) and County Durham. It has never been in North Yorkshire.

 

[pug1]

Humber what?!

Oh, sorry did I mention a naturally occurring geographical region with industrial synergies that was not allowed to prosper due to some idea of heritage?

Yes westv, Yorkshire and Humberside is a geographic region.

 

[Killingworth]

RAF Middleton St George, now Teesside Airport, was in County Durham pre-1974 and is now split between Stockton-on-Tees (formerly part of Cleveland from 1974 onwards) and County Durham. It has never been in North Yorkshire.

I stand corrected, only just north of the Tees Must have confused it with former RAF Croft where I watched a Red Arrows display in 1972 when living in Richmond.

 

[westv]

Oh, sorry did I mention a naturally occurring geographical region with industrial synergies that was not allowed to prosper due to some idea of heritage?

Yes westv, Yorkshire and Humberside is a geographic region.

I am sure you meant to say "Yorkshire and the Humber"