Stagecoach East Scotland

[RELL6L]

Seems strange to be withdrawing both the 16 and X7 between Perth and Dundee and replace them with…. extra journeys on the 39 between Arbroath and Dundee?

 

[overthewater]

The staff notice indicates the Arbroath and Forfar operations will lose nearly £1M this financial year, and I gather Perth was only slightly better.

There are more changes in Angus coming

You would think they would do them at the same time as these changes, unless there not going out for consultation.

 

[Jordan Adam]

You would think they would do them at the same time as these changes, unless there not going out for coconsultation.

I believe negotiations with Angus Council are still ongoing

 

[739678]

The staff notice indicates the Arbroath and Forfar operations will lose nearly £1M this financial year, and I gather Perth was only slightly better.

There are more changes in Angus coming

Perhaps the losses would not have been as great if the services were reliable. Just a look at the daily twitter feed shows the constant round of technical issues that have made it a lottery if (a) the bus will turn up, and (b) will it get to your destination if it does. The star performer here is the 0715 Arbroath to Forfar Service 27. I'd love to know how many weekdays it has actually run this year....

 

[Tayway]

I don't see how this is feasible – it leaves the Carse of Gowrie with no local bus service whatsoever as far as I can make out. All three of the main Stagecoach services (16, 39 and X7) are withdrawn leaving only the subsidised 16B on evenings and Sundays.

The smaller villages along the A90 might just about manage with the Ember and Citylink coach services, but to leave Invergowrie and Errol without any buses at all is astounding. I really hope this isn't allowed to go through, but I doubt Perth and Kinross Council will be in a position to subsidise an all-day service.

 

[Morayshire]

Proposed new timetables for Perth and Angus from Monday 29th April

www.stagecoachbus.com

Thanks for posting this. As usual I find out more about changes to the local buses by this forum than I do by any other means. Link has been duly circulated.

Losing the direct link to Perth and by extension Perth Royal Infirmary via the X7 will be an issue for some especially those who have to go to Perth Royal Infirmary for outpatient treatment or clinics.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Thanks for posting this. As usual I find out more about changes to the local buses by this forum than I do by any other means. Link has been duly circulated.

Losing the direct link to Perth and by extension Perth Royal Infirmary via the X7 will be an issue for some especially those who have to go to Perth Royal Infirmary for outpatient treatment or clinics.

I find it very hard to believe the X7 has "low demand" - I've used it twice (including once when it was half hourly) and it was very busy in both cases. A lot of journeys were between Perth and the west end of Dundee (including Ninewells) too which won't be adequately covered by rail or coach...

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I find it very hard to believe the X7 has "low demand" - I've used it twice (including once when it was half hourly)

The X7 has never been half hourly on the section that is proposed to be cut, unless you’re referring to when the X8 operated (which was back in 2017), and demand for travel between the two cities has diminished considerably since then.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Effectively cutting the 16 so that it's useless for people who rely on it but not fully withdrawing it so it still technically exists, when it's the only service for some places along the route seems actively hostile.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I find it very hard to believe the X7 has "low demand" - I've used it twice (including once when it was half hourly) and it was very busy in both cases. A lot of journeys were between Perth and the west end of Dundee (including Ninewells) too which won't be adequately covered by rail or coach...

Personally I think this is probably their get out of jail free card for being either unable or unwilling to address the known issues with the X7 which are primarily vehicle related, the existing inter deck coaches are knackered and I'm told that Enbiro substitutions are common, not that this is necessarily a bad thing from an accessibility point of view but if they're going to use a standard single deck on the route then at least by something half decent like the Volvo MCV combination with an appropriately specified interior for inter urban travel



Has already pointed out the loss of the Perth to Dundee link is controversial and problematic

 

[Jordan Adam]

What people need to remember is that the M8 has been doubled in frequency in the last 18 months from every two hours to hourly. While there will be demand from Dundee to Perth Royal Infirmary and from Perth to Ninewells the bulk of the demand is from the centre of Dundee to the centre of Perth which the M8 is far better catered to. Perhaps one solution would be to have the M8 call at Ninewells and introduce Stagecoach ticket acceptance on the M8 between Dundee and Broxden, this would maintain the Ninewells - Perth link while consolidating the service to one route rather than two competing routes neither of which have demand to justify their existing level of service.

Whenever i have used the X7 in the past few years post-covid it has not been that busy outside of Aberdeen to Stonehaven and Dundee to Arbroath, the fact its making a loss doesn't surprise me one bit. The evening journeys especially are dead, around a year ago i caught an early evening bus from Dundee to Aberdeen, it was full to Arbroath with around 10 people going to Montrose, north of Montrose i was the only passenger until Stonehaven when four people got on, three of which got off before Newtonhill leaving just two for Aberdeen - myself included...

 

[overthewater]

What people need to remember is that the M8 has been doubled in frequency in the last 18 months from every two hours to hourly. While there will be demand from Dundee to Perth Royal Infirmary and from Perth to Ninewells the bulk of the demand is from the centre of Dundee to the centre of Perth which the M8 is far better catered to. Perhaps one solution would be to have the M8 call at Ninewells and introduce Stagecoach ticket acceptance on the M8 between Dundee and Broxden, this would maintain the Ninewells - Perth link while consolidating the service to one route rather than two competing routes neither of which have demand to justify their existing level of service.

Whenever i have used the X7 in the past few years post-covid it has not been that busy outside of Aberdeen to Stonehaven and Dundee to Arbroath, the fact its making a loss doesn't surprise me one bit. The evening journeys especially are dead, around a year ago i caught an early evening bus from Dundee to Aberdeen, it was full to Arbroath with around 10 people going to Montrose, north of Montrose i was the only passenger until Stonehaven when four people got on, three of which got off before Newtonhill leaving just two for Aberdeen - myself included...

You have to wonder why a near full evening service is being kept on if these journeys are dead? With the M8, Was the reason it was reduced to every 2 hour before covid down to the fact X7 and X8 was in full operation?

Most people seem to have forgotten before 2015? the only fast services between Dundee and Perth were the Megabus/Citylink. And 333 only went to Ninewell from Perth and that was new service aswell.

Some of these proposed changes clearly look like the company is out with its begging bowl to get some subsidy, like Route 16 and 23. I wonder if the 4 will get its morning service kept.

 

[Jordan Adam]

You have to wonder why a near full evening service is being kept on if these journeys are dead? With the M8, Was the reason it was reduced to every 2 hour before covid down to the fact X7 and X8 was in full operation?

Most people seem to have forgotten before 2015? the only fast services between Dundee and Perth were the Megabus/Citylink. And 333 only went to Ninewell from Perth and that was new service aswell.

Some of these proposed changes clearly look like the company is out with its begging bowl to get some subsidy, like Route 16 and 23. I wonder if the 4 will get its morning service kept.

As far as i can recall the M8 was always every two hours prior to November 2022. The Perth extension of the X7 in 2014 directly replaced the 333 and the X8 (Arbroath to Perth) rarely carried anything other than fresh air.

I would assume the thinking is that by reducing the running costs of the X7 they can recover the losses and get the service back to making a profit. As for the evening service, it was already reduced last year with one run being taken off. The issue with reducing the service further is that it would impact the service from Aberdeen to Stonehaven in the evening which is quite well used. If anything this highlights the issue with the service being operated from one depot as they're essentially sending a near empty coach 40-50 miles up the coast to Aberdeen just to take passengers back south, similarly the southbound services from Aberdeen in the morning are quite lightly loaded until around Montrose.

It won't surprise me if the 16 gets retained in some form. Perhaps running infrequently as a 16B with one bus to maintain the Invergowrie/Kingoodie link.

 

[Spsf3232]

My experience of the service before COVID was Citylink took the bulk of the passengers between Perth and Dundee and the X7 was pretty much quiet.

I think there's been a big change in the way people travel and going to the next town or city for a day out happens much less than it used to. If we also take the unreliability of the service has caused many people to switch to car or the vastly improved train service.

Hopefully with the cut back service it can concentrate on having a reliable service back running as best they can until a decision is made regarding the replacement of the coaches

 

[overthewater]

As far as i can recall the M8 was always every two hours prior to November 2022. The Perth extension of the X7 in 2014 directly replaced the 333 and the X8 (Arbroath to Perth) rarely carried anything other than fresh air.

I'm going further back, like before 2016. The M8 was every hour, then the X7 came along and the M8 was cut back to every 2 hours. Personally, I've always thought the M8 would be better off being Stagecoach Express service X28.

 

[Volvodart]

Apart from the X7, all the other changes have been postponed.

Stagecoach agree to delay plans to axe bus services in Perth and Kinross

The bus company agreed no changes to services, other than the X7, will be introduced before May 27 - a month later than Stagecoach initially proposed.

www.thecourier.co.uk

Stagecoach agree to delay plans to axe bus services in Perth and Kinross
The bus company agreed no changes to services, other than the X7, will be introduced before May 27 - a month later than Stagecoach initially proposed.

 

[CSB0241]

Apart from the X7, all the other changes have been postponed.

Thank heavens.

 

[739678]

It would appear that there are also changes in Angus on the 29th of April, in addition to the X7 and 39 changes mentioned in Perth and Kinross.
Stagecoach aren't consulting on them, but Angus Council are...

Proposed timetables for bus journeys within Angus

Stagecoach have announced their intention to alter services on 13 May 2024.

www.angus.gov.uk

 

[NorthOxonian]

It would appear that there are also changes in Angus on the 29th of April, in addition to the X7 and 39 changes mentioned in Perth and Kinross.
Stagecoach aren't consulting on them, but Angus Council are...

Proposed timetables for bus journeys within Angus

Stagecoach have announced their intention to alter services on 13 May 2024.

www.angus.gov.uk

I may be missing something but those changes seem considerably less drastic than the (proposed) ones in Perth and Kinross - I've checked a few of the new timetables and by and large frequencies seem to remain the same. You do seem to have to manually check every timetable though so I've possibly missed something?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

It would appear that there are also changes in Angus on the 29th of April, in addition to the X7 and 39 changes mentioned in Perth and Kinross.
Stagecoach aren't consulting on them, but Angus Council are...

Proposed timetables for bus journeys within Angus

Stagecoach have announced their intention to alter services on 13 May 2024.

www.angus.gov.uk

If the changes are on April 29th then the changes would need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioner by... tomorrow?

I may be missing something but those changes seem considerably less drastic than the (proposed) ones in Perth and Kinross - I've checked a few of the new timetables and by and large frequencies seem to remain the same. You do seem to have to manually check every timetable though so I've possibly missed something?

Looks like 2 less PVR at Arbroath (relating to the X7) and 1 less PVR at Forfar (relating to the existing short 21As)

 

[kez19]

I may be missing something but those changes seem considerably less drastic than the (proposed) ones in Perth and Kinross - I've checked a few of the new timetables and by and large frequencies seem to remain the same. You do seem to have to manually check every timetable though so I've possibly missed something?

The other is the 39 which is currently hourly, this in a way for it being half hourly does benefit if people wanting to go Ethiebeaton Park and Arbroath (from Balgillo Road) par X7, sure the 39 was half hourly few years back?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The Angus and Perth changes are now earmarked for May 13th: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/perth-kinross/4929192/stagecoach-perthshire-backtrack/

Stagecoach backtrack on decision to delay controversial Perthshire bus cuts
The proposals have been met with outrage by communities across the region.

Stagecoach have backtracked on their decision to delay controversial bus cuts in Perth and Kinross by bringing the date forward two weeks.

The bus company announced plans in February to reduce and remove routes across the local authority.

The restructure would leave areas like the Carse of Gowrie without a commercial bus service.

The proposals, which were to be brought in late April, were met with outrage by communities across the region.

Following a campaign of pressure from residents, politicians and The Courier, Stagecoach announced earlier this month that they would delay their plans to cut services by one month.

They said no changes would be made until May 27 while they consulted with Perth and Kinross Council.

However, The Courier has learned that any changes will now be implemented two weeks earlier on May 13.

The bus company say the new timetable will be revealed late next month.

A spokesperson for Stagecoach East Scotland said: "After consulting with Perth and Kinross Council and Angus Council, we are now working towards changes to services in these areas from Monday May 13.

"Further information will be available on our website towards the end of April."

The bus company refused to go into further details on what those changes would be or what routes were still under threat.

They did confirm that no changes to the X7 route, which was still set to be axed at the end of April, would be made until May 13.

The X7 connects Perth Royal Infirmary and Ninewells Hospital in Dundee.

A Perth and Kinross Council spokesperson said: "We are working with Stagecoach on developing a new timetable which we have agreed will be introduced on May 13."

"The earlier date is necessary because of Stagecoach's operational requirements in relation to mitigations for the Carse service."

The announcement by Stagecoach in February was met with anger and disbelief by residents throughout Perth and Kinross.

There was unanimous cross-party support from local councillors to write to the Scottish Government to intervene while John Swinney MSP and Pete Wishart MP held public meetings attended by hundreds of concerned residents.

The Courier spoke to residents who feared the axing of the 16 bus in the Carse of Gowrie would mean they could no longer attend their GP or get to school on time.

Bertha Park residents on the outskirts of Perth were also concerned about how young children would attend school.

Stagecoach has come into further criticism in Angus after announcing sweeping changes to its timetable there.

After announcing the planned changes in both Perthshire and Angus, the company put forward plans to increase their fares by 6% across Tayside and Fife from March 31.

 

[CSB0241]

The Angus and Perth changes are now earmarked for May 13th: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/perth-kinross/4929192/stagecoach-perthshire-backtrack/

So does this mean that the original proposed changes from February & the changes in Angus are happening, even the ones that were supposedly cancelled?

 

[Fifescottish]

Really annoying that you can’t read this unless you pay!

 

[GusB]

Really annoying that you can’t read this unless you pay!

The article was quoted in full in post #3925

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’ve been using the X7 recently a fair bit on the section that’s set to be withdrawn. It’s just been coincidental that I’ve needed to use it. From the journeys I’ve used it’s had favourable loads, but it seems to be largely those with Free bus passes with very few actual paying customers. I think withdrawing that section completely without replacement would be shortsighted. On each occasion I’ve travelled on it the majority of passengers boarded in Perth City Centre and alighted at Ninewells Hospital.

However, the X7 has always felt like an unnecessarily long route for me. In my view one that probably doesn’t need to go beyond Dundee Bus Station. A separate route with normal single deckers would be ideal for running between say Arbroath and Perth Royal Infirmary at reduced hours with probably no Sunday service. Are spare Scania E300’s available? This in my view would alleviate the operational constraints whilst maintaining the link. Alternatively run the X16 all day with some minor route changes?

 

[DunsBus]

From the journeys I’ve used it’s had favourable loads, but it seems to be largely those with Free bus passes with very few actual paying customers.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. And not just on Tayside, but across all of Scotland in general.

 

[overthewater]

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. And not just on Tayside, but across all of Scotland in general.

This isnt the thread to highlight how the current government for the past 14 odd years has underfunded the scheme.

I wonder if the changes have been brought forward by two weeks because Stagecoach has come to some sort of agreement with the councils. However I've heard there also changes due for Fife so maybe they planning everything together?

 

[roadierway77]

So does this mean that the original proposed changes from February & the changes in Angus are happening, even the ones that were supposedly cancelled?

From how I interpret the article, potentially, but they have met with Perth & Kinross Council which might mean they've arranged subsidy for some routes. Why they haven't announced the details of this now and are deciding to keep users waiting is anybody's guess. If the exact timetables and arrangements aren't complete then this shouldn't have been announced already, especially when it's not clear whether the changes are still going ahead as planned or not. It just creates more uncertainty and confusion for passengers.

 

[BobbyBKinross]

I'd be surprised if Perth & Kinross Council have chose to subsidise services without agreement of full council or at least the finance and resource committee's agreement. Although subsidy of the services would undoubtedly be the most favoured option by the public.