Threat to Budapest-Belgrade Route Upgrade Project

[LNW-GW Joint]

I haven't seen it in a recognised railway journal, but the "Daily Wrap" is reporting that this upgrade project is in trouble on the Hungarian section.
This seems to be because the Chinese contractors will not commit to EU construction norms.
The upgrade in Serbia, largely delivered by a mix of Russian and Chinese contractors, and partially completed, does not seem to be affected.
Through trains were being diverted between Budapest and Subotica via Szeged to allow the upgrade in Hungary to take place.
Sounds like yet another bone of contention between Viktor Orban and Brussels.
The technical debate might be about whether ETCS is part of the railway spec or not.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...S&cvid=0459f5e3192445b48a86ec85a616127c&ei=72

The European Union has stopped an ambitious infrastructure plan championed by the Serbian President and the Hungarian Prime Minister. According to Polish RMF FM, referencing reports from Hungarian media, the project in question is the construction of a high-speed railway connecting Belgrade and Budapest.
This initiative had promised to drastically reduce the travel time between the capitals of Serbia and Hungary to just 2.5 hours, as reported by N1 television. However, these ambitious plans now seem to be on pause. While construction has commenced on the Serbian portion, progress has stalled in Hungary.
Hungarian media reveals that the stumbling block lies with the Chinese contractors' failure to meet European construction norms. Reports emerging last autumn highlighted concerns over the contractors’ inability to install a safety and control system for the railway in line with European standards.

 

[nwales58]

Can't find the prebvious thread on this.

The problem is that the project was driven by politicians and their friends' construction firms, rather than railway people and conventional evaluation+contract awards, in a way that is far from normal in Europe.

From memory, part of the problem was that the chinese-enhanced ETCS-alike was to be installed (as in their other turnkey projects in Asia and Africa) which was not validated against ETCS. Decision makers could not grasp the interoperability problems.

Then the embarassment of the Biatobargy-Tatabanya deterioration rebuilding kicked in. Minister required the construction pals to go and mend it ASAP so work on the line to Subotica stopped. Also the infrastructure budget was not increased for the emergency work, the minister thinking it should come out of existing budgets.

Orban on a visit to Beijing was going to sort the whole problem out, naturally. But it seems the chinese have lost interest.

From a few pictures it looked as if the upgrade was surprisingly low-grade. 160km/h maybe with semi- or uncontrolled level crossings. Sensible freight capacity upgrade of course but not exactly HS passenger. I haven't seen the Belgrade-Novi Sad 200km/h project, it might be the same.

Someone else may have more facts, I regret I don't read Hungarian despite having worked there a while ago.

This is what happens when politicians direct everything and kickbacks dictate where contracts go. Surprising it's this bad in western Europe (far worse than spain or italy) but would not have suprised me in much of Africa or the middle east.

 

[johnnydoe]

Hungary is a rogue state within Europe. It's been a sewer for years.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hungary is a rogue state within Europe. It's been a sewer for years.

Another factor will be that the project is part-funded by the EU.
It's very easy to spend someone else's money.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Hungary is a rogue state within Europe. It's been a sewer for years.

I can confirm. I know a case first hand where railway employees in a rural part of Hungary were all but ordered to hand over part of their salaries to a local political slush fund. There are very few good jobs in the area, so if you want to keep your job, you need to make sure that you contribute.

From a few pictures it looked as if the upgrade was surprisingly low-grade.

It wouldn't surprise me. This is Orban's Hungary through and through: grand projects built in a terrible way that end up either unfinished or that they fall to bits quickly. The disaster that is the Biodome in Budapest Zoo is another example, but the country is littered with similar examples.

 

[nwales58]

I know a case first hand where railway employees in a rural part of Hungary were all but ordered to hand over part of their salaries to a local political slush fund.

Ouch. That is how the Casablanca mosque was funded in part, state employees were told to donate a month's salary. Should be inconceivable in Europe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2024 ==

Ordinary people then start wanting bribes to do their job on e higher ups do that kind of thing.

Might that explain some bad stories of MAV revenue enforcement.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Hungary is a rogue state within Europe. It's been a sewer for years.

Orbán has congratulated Vladimir Putin on his election victory.

Hungary’s Orban congratulates Putin on election ‘win’

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban congratulated Vladimir Putin on his presidential election win in a letter lauding their countries’ cooperation “based on mutual respect.”

kyivindependent.com

 

[johnnydoe]

It was a massive mistake to ever allow them into the EU.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It was a massive mistake to ever allow them into the EU.

Easily said in hindsight. But when the Soviet Bloc disintegrated Hungary was arguably the first of the affected nations to begin adopting more liberal and market based economic policies. As such it was an ideal candidate for early EU entry. Clearly a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

 

[johnnydoe]

Easily said in hindsight. But when the Soviet Bloc disintegrated Hungary was arguably the first of the affected nations to begin adopting more liberal and market based economic policies. As such it was an ideal candidate for early EU entry. Clearly a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

Fully accept that this is in hindsight.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Jon Worth (@jon@gruene.social)

Attached: 1 image They’ve brought Chinese diesel locomotives to Serbia for the building of the Novi Sad - Subotica line You can find diesel locomotives for building trains in Europe *easily* You don’t have to ship trains half way across the world for this! #CrossBorderRail

gruene.social

They’ve brought Chinese diesel locomotives to Serbia for the building of the Novi Sad - Subotica line
You can find diesel locomotives for building trains in Europe *easily*
You don’t have to ship trains half way across the world for this!

(Photo shows two Chinese DF4 locomotives on a new viaduct in Serbia.)

 

[nwales58]

I assume Jon Worth was being ironic.

100-150 years ago many railways were built supervised by people from a far away country and using their motive power exports. China is now doing what our Victorians, and other industrial colonial powers, and more recently the United States did. Back in the 1970s-80s we still assumed that if our consultancies planned projects in poorer countries it ought to be a captive market for our industry.

That Serbia seems to have become a client state of China or Russia, varying daily, is a different discussion.

If you want new infrastructure built and actually in operation, I see a contrast between Serbia (Belgrade-Novi Sad in operation, Novi Sad-Subotica plausible progress) and Hungary (is any work now going on between Budapest and Kelebia?). Both are chinese-driven projects, the difference is the civils contractors and politicians.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

He isn't being ironic. The DF4s are out of gauge in Europe (over 3 metres wide) and would have to be brought to the site by road. Geting them to Serbia must have been spectacularly expensive, difficult and time-consuming. On top of all that, they have Janney automatic couplers and cannot couple to European wagons.

The Belgrade-Budapest service will use Chinese EMUs, so that's the captive market taken care of. Obviously someone is making money from shipping old Chinese locomotives around the world but it's only a small part of the project.

 

[nwales58]

... Geting them to Serbia must have been spectacularly expensive, difficult and time-consuming. On top of all that, they have Janney automatic couplers and cannot couple to European wagons.

Transship at Constanta onto Danube barge up to Novi Sad seems likely.

Point taken about compatibility, although equipment used during construction is not the same as the eventual working railway.

This resonates with the ETCS/CTCS apparent fiasco in Hungary.

Does anyone know what is happening on the ground (not from webnews) in Hungary?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Another factor will be that the project is part-funded by the EU.
It's very easy to spend someone else's money.

I don't think it is. ITYWF it's Chinese and some Russian loans (in the case of Serbia). And that's partly the trouble. The HU government has declared the project a business secret. There are no impact studies done, no clear target traffic levels. It could not have done that had EU money been involved. And of course, it is not a high-speed line in the current sense of the words, despite what the government claims at times.

Easily said in hindsight. But when the Soviet Bloc disintegrated Hungary was arguably the first of the affected nations to begin adopting more liberal and market based economic policies. As such it was an ideal candidate for early EU entry. Clearly a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

Indeed, but it had begun liberalisation (at least to some extent) in 1968, and was go-stop-go into the late 80s as the old guard and new thinkers struggled to gain influence. It was easily the most 'advanced' - in terms of already applying some market principles - by 1989-90. And, at that time, one of the most anti-communist and anti-Soviet/Russian.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Point taken about compatibility, although equipment used during construction is not the same as the eventual working railway.

Then perhaps the Chinese contractors shipped all their kit over from China and didn't use anything local.

ETA: I've found a video showing Chinese workers operating a Chinese tracklaying machine on the Belgrade-Subotica section.

The Laci Lőrinc channel has other videos with Chinese rolling stock, including this one. I haven't found a DF4 yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

For anyone interested in this puzzling phenomenon, here are two photos of DF4s in Serbia on the Russian site Railgallery.

DF4-1290 — Фото

Железнодорожная фотогалерея

railgallery.ru

DF4-3287 — Фото

Железнодорожная фотогалерея

railgallery.ru