Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway updates

[Snow1964]

The problem for WS&M is that tapping into the market for local travel could be seen as extractive when it come to TfW services.

But the abstractive test is not between 2 or 3 stations, it is across whole service, and as long as that is below 30% then ok. If say Milton Keyes-Nuneaton is only 5% then could be higher elsewhere.

Alstom plans to operate its own passenger train service in the UK for the first time

Alstom is partnering with SLC Rail to form a new open access rail operation between North Wales, Shropshire, the Midlands and London

www.alstom.com

We know Alstom is involved, and appears to be a major backer of the project, and I do wonder if it has a few tricks up its sleeve.

I am sure it was said in the past, that main problem with 22x fleets is too many driving cars, lots of services need 6 (or 7) car units, but not the double sets working together. Got me thinking and maybe Alstom have worked out that if they rebuild driving end of some vehicles as a pantograph intermediate end and substitute the diesel unit in that vehicle for a transformer, they can potentially get lots of 5 or 6 car bimodes instead, at much cheaper rate for next 20 years than supplying new stock that operators can't afford.

I know it might sound like a rehash of the old lengthening the sets with an electric power car (a project that died due to cost about 15 years ago), but economics are different now, have spare driving vehicles (compared to ideal formations), have already got most of the bodyshell, got bogies etc. If the spare cab fittings and spare engines etc just go into spare parts pool. Then the cost of the new bits is partly covered by not needing to buy some spare parts. Voila, bimodes with 15-20 year lifespan, and no silly short 4car sets. Potentially Alstom have some spare parts from a withdrawn 25kv train in France that would be good for 15 years, as I said maybe some tricks up their sleeve.

 

[norbitonflyer]

maybe Alstom have worked out that if they rebuild driving end of some vehicles as a pantograph intermediate end and substitute the diesel unit in that vehicle for a transformer, they can potentially get lots of 5 or 6 car bimodes instead, at much cheaper rate for next 20 years than supplying new stock that operators can't afford.

It woukld be a bold decision to make a service expected to launch next year dependent on such a major rebuild, given the problems they have encountered rebuilding the 458s.

 

[Snow1964]

It woukld be a bold decision to make a service expected to launch next year dependent on such a major rebuild, given the problems they have encountered rebuilding the 458s.

Sorry wasn't clear, not by start of service. Start on diesel, maybe bimode later. I was thinking more along lines of Alstom converting some driving cars, into pantograph intermediate cars (effectively altering about 20% of bodyshell), adding transformer instead of engine, keeping spare engine and cab components as pool of spares for rest of fleet, reforming into longer sets, then doing a maintenance type service provision, more like hiring out stock than conventional leasing.

It's simple engineering economics, as the trains get older, there is increased value in having good supply pool of swapable spare parts, compared to initial build costs being written down. There are IETs with motor set out of action due to lack of spares, and they are not yet old.

As for Alstom becoming the operator, I would have thought it wants to be a train provider, ie can also apply it to anyone who needs extra capacity for events or seasonal peaks etc, we hire out trains with/without crews. I see this as trialling and ironing out the snags ahead of a bigger rollout in few years time, maybe even hiring out 390s to open access operators when HS2 stock arrives. Longer term strategy.

 

[zwk500]

Sorry wasn't clear, not by start of service. Start on diesel, maybe bimode later. I was thinking more along lines of Alstom converting some driving cars, into pantograph intermediate cars (effectively altering about 20% of bodyshell), adding transformer instead of engine, keeping spare engine and cab components as pool of spares for rest of fleet, reforming into longer sets, then doing a maintenance type service provision, more like hiring out stock than conventional leasing.

It's simple engineering economics, as the trains get older, there is increased value in having good supply pool of swapable spare parts, compared to initial build costs being written down. There are IETs with motor set out of action due to lack of spares, and they are not yet old.

As for Alstom becoming the operator, I would have thought it wants to be a train provider, ie can also apply it to anyone who needs extra capacity for events or seasonal peaks etc, we hire out trains with/without crews. I see this as trialling and ironing out the snags ahead of a bigger rollout in few years time, maybe even hiring out 390s to open access operators when HS2 stock arrives. Longer term strategy.

Any conversion is exceptionally unlikely, it just won't be worth the costs to hack about with 20 year old trains compared to dusting off a current product and adding a genset. Also, for this route conversion to bi-mode would be of limited value given the relatively low portion of under-wire running.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Alstom isn't, at least yet, a Rosco or a TOC, and doesn't own the 22x fleets or any others.
It does have significant maintenance, upgrade/rebuild and fleet management capability, separate from its manufacturing stream.

 

[Snow1964]

Any conversion is exceptionally unlikely, it just won't be worth the costs to hack about with 20 year old trains compared to dusting off a current product and adding a genset. Also, for this route conversion to bi-mode would be of limited value given the relatively low portion of under-wire running.

I think you are missing the point, possibly because I didn't explain it properly. It is not not the absolute cost of the conversion, it is the cost less the savings. Generally a 5car set can manage to keep time with an engine out (perhaps not on hilly, curvy, tightly timed routes). So swapping one out for a transformer isn't a problem, and saves on cost of buying spares for aging diesel equipment. There are also few few long distance services that do not run under the wires part of their journey (and even this proposal is electrified Nuneaton-Euston). Diesel engines need servicing more by hours used, than by a fixed calendar interval so using them less saves maintenance cost. So part of your conversion cost would be incurred as buying spares anyway, which no longer need to do.

The other economic point, is who wants a 4car diesel unit, lot more value in leasing out a 5 or 6car bimode. So the easiest change is alter some driving cars, put pantograph in where cab was, and reform it in middle of set. Fewer sets, but better length and no cost of extra vehicle. If you look at it over 15 years there the net cost vs the maintenance and spares savings and more lease value is different to seeing it as simple conversion cost. There is even a proportion of customers who accept higher fares for 'clean' electric trains over 'polluting' diesel trains.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think you are missing the point, possibly because I didn't explain it properly. It is not not the absolute cost of the conversion, it is the cost less the savings. Generally a 5car set can manage to keep time with an engine out (perhaps not on hilly, curvy, tightly timed routes). So swapping one out for a transformer isn't a problem, and saves on cost of buying spares for aging diesel equipment. There are also few few long distance services that do not run under the wires part of their journey (and even this proposal is electrified Nuneaton-Euston). Diesel engines need servicing more by hours used, than by a fixed calendar interval so using them less saves maintenance cost. So part of your conversion cost would be incurred as buying spares anyway, which no longer need to do.

The other economic point, is who wants a 4car diesel unit, lot more value in leasing out a 5 or 6car bimode. So the easiest change is alter some driving cars, put pantograph in where cab was, and reform it in middle of set. Fewer sets, but better length and no cost of extra vehicle. If you look at it over 15 years there the net cost vs the maintenance and spares savings and more lease value is different to seeing it as simple conversion cost. There is even a proportion of customers who accept higher fares for 'clean' electric trains over 'polluting' diesel trains.

I would also say that when running under the wires and on electric, regen braking (assuming they have the correct onboard equipment fitted for measuring how much is fed back to the grid) will allow them to save money there too.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'd be interested to see the projected passenger numbers for this service and revenue predictions.

 

[m0ffy]

My money is on new rolling stock (by Alstom, obvs). Possibly a new product, to the UK at least.

I can’t see a manufacturer-backed venture using old, poorly-regarded, stock, even if the Voyagers are an Alstom-supported product.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be 221s or 222s.

And there wont be any electric conversion. There wasnt a case a decade ago when the design / development cost was spread across a whole fleet with 20-25 years remaining life; it certainly won’t be remotely viable across a micro fleet with 10-15 years remaining life.

 

[HST43257]

Alstom isn't, at least yet, a Rosco or a TOC

I may be wrong on this, but is SLC not a TOC of any kind?

 

[Northerngirl]

There seems to be alot of proposals to use the quite limited fleet of non XC voyagers, there's surely not enough

 

[12LDA28C]

I may be wrong on this, but is SLC not a TOC of any kind?

The part of SLC which held an Operating licence has been taken over by RailAdventure as I understand it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I may be wrong on this, but is SLC not a TOC of any kind?

You've got me foxed there, SLC=Salt Lake City?

I've got it now: SLC=Sable Leigh Consultancy Ltd.

 

[AJDesiro]

There seems to be alot of proposals to use the quite limited fleet of non XC voyagers, there's surely not enough

It'll be a game of whoever gets to them first. I'd imagine Grand Union and WSMR will need something like 5 units each, of the 11 currently up for grabs.

 

[Snow1964]

It'll be a game of whoever gets to them first. I'd imagine Grand Union and WSMR will need something like 5 units each, of the 11 currently up for grabs.

Not just who gets them first, if 2 (or more) Operators want them then LeaseCo can effectively choose who is offering highest payment, or longest term.

Of course some bimodes are soon up for grabs too, the 802s GWR uses are currently only contracted to 25/06/28. (The GWR 800s are 27.5 years from 15/10/17), TPE originally had 802-2s to 01/04/23 (presumably extended, but don't know to when)

As far as I am aware there is absolutely nothing to stop a company securing in advance any train (even a number of trains and part of a fleet) whose lease is going to expire and current user hasn't extended. What's more if Open access operator is willing to commit few years, but the franchised operator doesn't want to do more than short extension then might influence the LeaseCo (who are supposed to act commercially rather than pander to start-stop DfT late renewals).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not just who gets them first, if 2 (or more) Operators want them then LeaseCo can effectively choose who is offering highest payment, or longest term.

Depends on the nature of the contract. If it allows the incumbent first refusal to renew, then they can't do that at all.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Ian Walters runs SLC Rail. Pretty sure they have an non passenger licence already. Someone will need to make a decision on Grand Union or this, they both won't fit on the WCML.

ORR: Open access services given green light between London and Stirling | Office of Rail and Road

The latest access decision by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) provides more services for rail passengers travelling between London and central Scotland.

www.orr.gov.uk

ORR has today (7 March) given the go-ahead for Grand Union Trains, an open access operator, to start a new train service between London and the city of Stirling, from June 2025. ORR’s decision will offer more choice to passengers, bring private sector investment to the railway and increase competition.
Grand Union Trains will introduce four new return services per day between London Euston and Stirling stations. These services will also call at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Crewe (subject to agreement between Grand Union Trains and Network Rail), Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds and Larbert. Larbert, Greenfaulds and Whifflet will receive their first direct services to London.
ORR found that the proposed services would increase choice for passengers, significantly increasing direct journey opportunities to and from London and central and southern Scotland, while making use of existing capacity on the network.

Is the WSMR application too late? Have the paths on the WCML already been allocated to Grand Union Trains?

 

[AJDesiro]

Is the WSMR application too late? Have the paths on the WCML already been allocated to Grand Union Trains?

I believe WSMR and Grand Union have identified separate paths. The WCML timetable is very consistent, so it’s wholly possible that they could use the same paths at alternating hours. Though I believe they’ve already identified departure times from Euston and Wrexham/Stirling.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The only three open access services currently operating are Arriva Grand Central and First Hull Trains and Lumo all on the East Coast Mainline. It remains to be seen whether this proposed WSMR service and the Grand Union Trains Euston-Stirling and Paddington-Carmarthen services will be successful.
The start of the Paddington-Carmarthen service has been delayed possibly until 2027.
Other attempts to operate open access services have not been successful.
There will be a lot more paths on the West Coast Mainline when HS2 services start operating but that is at least five years away and many of the freed up paths will be needed for more freight services and local and frequent stop passenger services.

Establishing a secure connection ...

 

[JW4]

Though I believe they’ve already identified departure times from Euston and Wrexham/Stirling

Yeah they have for London-Wrexham

	Wrexham General — London Euston (Up direction)
Station	First service departure time	Second dep	Third dep	Fourth dep	Last service departure time
Wrexham General	06:21	07:54	10:55	14:54	17:30
Gobowen	06:35	08:07	11:09	15:08	17:45
Shrewsbury	06:58	08:26	11:28	15:27	18:04
Telford Central	07:19	08:45	11:45	15:45	18:23
Wolverhampton	07:39	09:05	12:04	16:04	18:43
Darlaston	07:45	09:11	12:11	16:11	18:50
Walsall	07:52	09:19	12:20	16:19	18:59
Coleshill Parkway	08:14	09:41	12:41	16:41	19:20
Nuneaton	08:29	09:56	12:56	16:56	19:35
Milton Keynes Central (Set-down only)	08:58	10:25	13:25	17:25	20:04
London Euston (arrival times)	09:31	10:58	13:58	18:00	20:37
	London Euston — Wrexham General (Down direction)
London Euston (departure times)	07:00	11:00	14:00	17:36	20:10
Milton Keynes Central (pick-up only)	07:31	11:31	14:31	18:06	20:41
Nuneaton	08:01	12:01	15:01	18:34	21:13
Coleshill Parkway	08:17	12:17	15:17	18:50	21:29
Walsall	08:38	12:38	15:40	19:11	21:54
Darlaston	08:45	12:46	15:40 (typo?)	19:18	22:00
Wolverhampton	08:52	12:52	15:57	19:29	22:08
Telford Central	09:13	13:13	16:14	19:48	22:25
Shrewsbury	09:28	13:29	16:29	20:10	22:42
Gobowen	09:46	13:54	17:01	20:27	22:58
Wrexham General (arrival times)	09:58	14:16	17:14	20:40	23:15

 

[stuving]

The part of SLC which held an Operating licence has been taken over by RailAdventure as I understand it.

Yes: SLC Operations gained its passenger operator's licence in October 2022, then in July 2022, Railadventure GMBH bought 75% of it and renamed it to Railadventure UK. The other 25% is owned by WFIC, which is Ian Walters - who runs (and I think owns) SLC Rail.

This is SLC Rails's press release (just their own content) on the WSMR from Thursday:

The proposal envisages a service of five trains per day in each direction Monday to Saturday, with four travelling both ways on Sundays. Trains will stop at Gobowen, Shrewsbury, Telford Central, Wolverhampton, Darlaston, Walsall, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton and Milton Keynes on their journey between Wrexham General and London Euston.

WSMR estimates it would serve a core catchment area of around 1.5 million people outside London, a population which is set to grow by 16 per cent over the next decade.

“From the Welsh borders to the Midlands, our routes will forge new connections, linking overlooked regions of England and Wales with direct services to and from London. Passengers will benefit from more competitive fares and new technology to simplify ticket purchasing for our new services. Delighting the customer will be at the forefront of what we do; we want WSMR passengers to experience a new excellence in customer service onboard our intercity trains,” said Ian Walters, Managing Director at Midlands-based SLC Rail.

He added: “Our proposal will support sustainable housing growth, nurture communities, and unite business, leisure, and commerce along the corridor. This will enhance economies and bring a positive impact to both communities and the environment – and we can’t wait to get started!”

In the West Midlands, WSMR trains will avoid Birmingham – one of the most complex and congested parts of the British rail network – by utilising the Sutton Park line, which is currently only used for freight services. This would enable Wolverhampton and Walsall to serve Nuneaton directly for the first time, offering new travel options across the West Midlands, North Warwickshire and beyond.

As an open access operator, WSMR is a wholly commercial operation, which remains separate from the Government’s franchised rail operations. WSMR will submit a formal application to add its services to the UK network to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) on Thursday 14 March. Details regarding WSMR’s fleet, brand and service provision will be announced at a later date.

 

[JW4]

Yes I did do that table by myself, because the images are blurry and for accessibility

 

[The Planner]

Yeah they have for London-Wrexham

Station	First service departure time	Second dep	Third dep	Fourth dep	Last service departure time
Wrexham General	06:21	07:54	10:55	14:54	17:30
Gobowen	06:35	08:07	11:09	15:08	17:45
Shrewsbury	06:58	08:26	11:28	15:27	18:04
Telford Central	07:19	08:45	11:45	15:45	18:23
Wolverhampton	07:39	09:05	12:04	16:04	18:43
Darlaston	07:45	09:11	12:11	16:11	18:50
Walsall	07:52	09:19	12:20	16:19	18:59
Coleshill Parkway	08:14	09:41	12:41	16:41	19:20
Nuneaton	08:29	09:56	12:56	16:56	19:35
Milton Keynes Central (Set-down only)	08:58	10:25	13:25	17:25	20:04
London Euston (arrival times)	09:31	10:58	13:58	18:00	20:37
London Euston (departure times)	07:00	11:00	14:00	11:36	20:10
Milton Keynes Central (pick-up only)	07:31	11:31	14:31	18:06	20:41

Hence them wanting the Sutton Park sped up, Walsall to Coleshill in 21 minutes is ambitious...

They are obviously expecting the likes of XC to flex as well. As that 0814 looks like it would clash at Water Orton to me.

 

[JW4]

What do you think that Darlaston departure for Wrexham would be given 15:40 has to be a typo?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2024 ==

You’ve got the Shrewsbury bound WMR stopper to deal with of course, that would probably need to be re-timed to allow the WSMR past.

2J22 15:26 Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury via Tame Bridge Parkway - June 2024 timetable - West Midlands Railway

Station Departure time

Birmingham New Street [BHM] 15:26

Soho South Jn [XOS] 15:31 1/2

Soho East Jn 15:32 1/2

Perry Barr West Jn 15:35 1/2

Perry Barr North Jn [XRA] 15:36 1/2

Tame Bridge Parkway [TAB] 15:41 1/2

Bescot Stadium [BSC] 15:43

Darlaston Jn 15:45
3 1/2 minutes performance allowance

Portobello Jn (West Mids) [XPJ] 15:52

Wolverhampton [WVH] 15:58 1/2
Arr: 15:56 1/2

 

[norbitonflyer]

What do you think that Darlaston departure for Wrexham would be given 15:40 has to be a typo?

P{robably because it is the same as the Walsall departure time. Should be 1548?
The fourth departure from Euston shpiuld probabvly also be 1736 rather than 1136, as taking four and a half hours to get to Milton Keynes is going to play hell with capacity on that stretch of the WCML

 

[JW4]

P{robably because it is the same as the Walsall departure time. Should be 1548?
The fourth departure from Euston shpiuld probabvly also be 1736 rather than 1136, as taking four and a half hours to get to Milton Keynes is going to play hell with capacity on that stretch of the WCML

Corrected Euston, I thought 15:48 and maybe they can use that Darlaston performance allowance until they redo the timings for that stopper.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Those times at Wolverhampton beat the Avanti (9Sxx Euston-Scotland services, with 6 stops, one of them extended at New St) by 15-20 minutes.

 

[Elecman]

Where will the stock layover for 90-120 mins at Euston, Upside sidings?

 

[steve099]

Yeah they have for London-Wrexham

	Wrexham General — London Euston (Up direction)
Station	First service departure time	Second dep	Third dep	Fourth dep	Last service departure time
Wrexham General	06:21	07:54	10:55	14:54	17:30
Gobowen	06:35	08:07	11:09	15:08	17:45
Shrewsbury	06:58	08:26	11:28	15:27	18:04
Telford Central	07:19	08:45	11:45	15:45	18:23
Wolverhampton	07:39	09:05	12:04	16:04	18:43
Darlaston	07:45	09:11	12:11	16:11	18:50
Walsall	07:52	09:19	12:20	16:19	18:59
Coleshill Parkway	08:14	09:41	12:41	16:41	19:20
Nuneaton	08:29	09:56	12:56	16:56	19:35
Milton Keynes Central (Set-down only)	08:58	10:25	13:25	17:25	20:04
London Euston (arrival times)	09:31	10:58	13:58	18:00	20:37
	London Euston — Wrexham General (Down direction)
London Euston (departure times)	07:00	11:00	14:00	17:36	20:10
Milton Keynes Central (pick-up only)	07:31	11:31	14:31	18:06	20:41
Nuneaton	08:01	12:01	15:01	18:34	21:13
Coleshill Parkway	08:17	12:17	15:17	18:50	21:29
Walsall	08:38	12:38	15:40	19:11	21:54
Darlaston	08:45	12:46	15:40 (typo?)	19:18	22:00
Wolverhampton	08:52	12:52	15:57	19:29	22:08
Telford Central	09:13	13:13	16:14	19:48	22:25
Shrewsbury	09:28	13:29	16:29	20:10	22:42
Gobowen	09:46	13:54	17:01	20:27	22:58
Wrexham General (arrival times)	09:58	14:16	17:14	20:40	23:15

I appreciate you can't provide 5 services a day that suit everyone, but I sure hope they have consulted prospective passengers - as I would likely still drive to Stafford if the first arrival into London is 09:31 (could cope with 09:05-09:10 latest) although I could make the 17:36 back work, but I wouldn't be going back to Shrewsbury if I'd driven to Stafford. Presume the ideal around 6pm is chocka with Avantis?

I do think when it comes to a handful of services a day, the operator needs to be super clear on passenger wants and needs (i.e. the mission), and based on the previous 09.04am arrival into Euston with passengers from Shrews-Telford, I did get a sense it was still work/commuter-led.

At this rate, however, any direct options beyond 1 or 2 a day are a huge boon to the region.