Could other operators utilise the Merseyrail network?

[JJTRN2024]

Good Morning/Afternoon all,

So I just want to pre write this , I'm fairly new to the sport of train spotting and my interest in the rail - Not to say ive not always been interested but I've only recently been able to find time to actually get involved and look into this.

I was a regular user of merseyrail until about 5 years ago and the one question that I've always wondered is why are merseyrail so brick walled to other operators running on there lines.

With the potential use of the 777 upto helsby now looking extremely possible and close to happening. SO why does it have to merseyrail and not northern running down to helsby like the "good old days".

Similar to the borderlands line , Surly with TWF class 230 will be small enough to get into the tunnels at Birkenhead Park and continue to Hamilton square and possibly around the loop opening up a better faster route from Liverpool to north Wales,

Please advise only as this is something I've wondered for a while and yes there is some information online but nothing answering that question.

JJ

 

[CarrotPie]

Good Morning/Afternoon all,

So I just want to pre-write this; I'm fairly new to the sport of train spotting and my interest in the rail - not to say I've not always been interested but I've only recently been able to find time to actually get involved and look into this.

I was a regular user of Merseyrail until about 5 years ago and the one question that I've always wondered is: why are Merseyrail so brick-walled to other operators running on their lines?

With the potential use of the 777 up to Helsby now looking extremely possible and close to happening, why does it have to be Merseyrail and not Northern running down to Helsby like the "good old days"?

Similar to the Borderlands Line, surely TfW's Class 230s will be small enough to get into the tunnels at Birkenhead Park and continue to Hamilton Square (and possibly around the loop) opening up a better faster route from Liverpool to North Wales?

Please advise only as this is something I've wondered for a while and yes, there is some information online, but nothing answering that question.

JJ

230s can't run in the Merseyrail tunnels due to evacuation requirements. TfW can barely get 2/5 working on a good day, anyway!

I think the main thing is that Merseyrail (and its 777s) are good, or at least certainly better than Northern. Battery/juice rail is better than diesel in so many ways too, so why not use these lovely new battery trains over old, clapped-out diesel things? TOCs don't care about our enthusiasts' opinions (for obvious reasons).

 

[Djgr]

Good Morning/Afternoon all,

So I just want to pre write this , I'm fairly new to the sport of train spotting and my interest in the rail - Not to say ive not always been interested but I've only recently been able to find time to actually get involved and look into this.

I was a regular user of merseyrail until about 5 years ago and the one question that I've always wondered is why are merseyrail so brick walled to other operators running on there lines.

With the potential use of the 777 upto helsby now looking extremely possible and close to happening. SO why does it have to merseyrail and not northern running down to helsby like the "good old days".

Similar to the borderlands line , Surly with TWF class 230 will be small enough to get into the tunnels at Birkenhead Park and continue to Hamilton square and possibly around the loop opening up a better faster route from Liverpool to north Wales,

Please advise only as this is something I've wondered for a while and yes there is some information online but nothing answering that question.

JJ

There is a lot to be said for a system being self contained. It is easier for customers to understand and it tends to isolate itself from problems elsewhere in the network. Indeed, although Merseyrail has suffered reliability problems with its new trains, its worst performance is still better than most Train Operators best.

In terms of the examples you quote, the issues are somewhat different. Borderlands trains have never been allowed to travel all the way to Liverpool because of their traction power (i.e., being diesel). I don't think the 230s are the way forward, as they currently lack credibility. There is some political will in the longer term for this service to be integrated into Merseyrail.

The Ellesmere Port to Helsby service also has the problem of being diesel but has the added problem of trying to determine customer demand for such a service, given the size of the establishments it serves. The demand for travel to and from Ellesmere Port is unclear and Helsby already has direct services to Liverpool and Chester anyway.

 

[JJTRN2024]

230s can't run in the Merseyrail tunnels due to evacuation requirements. TfW can barely get 2/5 working on a good day, anyway!

I think the main thing is that Merseyrail (and its 777s) are good, or at least certainly better than Northern. Battery/juice rail is better than diesel in so many ways too, so why not use these lovely new battery trains over old, clapped-out diesel things? TOCs don't care about our enthusiasts' opinions (for obvious reasons).

Correct me if im wrong but surly there isn't going to be much difference between evacuation of a 777 and a 230 ? , But yes I agree with you on the TFW getting them working, Its a stain on the line , but that's typical TFW 231's never seen up north & 197 rarely seen up north lately or with only two cars from holyhead to Cardiff.

Clapped out diesel things , we will miss the 150s 158s and 769's when there gone ,

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Merseyrail contract/concession expires in 2028 after 25 years (Serco/Transport UK ex Abellio).
I doubt there will be major changes in operation until then, depending on how such contracts are let by then.
Extensions will require extra stock, as the 777 fleet only replaces existing services.
I doubt if Liverpool City Region has the funds for a major expansion unless part of a new deal with the government.

Liverpool-Hooton-Ellesmere Port-Helsby-Runcorn-Liverpool has been on the agenda for decades, but never got close to reality*.
Cheshire (West) is not interested in funding such a service on its patch (which was why the old NWT Ellesmere Port-Helsby service was reduced to peak hours).
Services Chester-Warrington-Manchester and Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool have at least been improved in recent years.

* in 1959, BR ran 2tpd (steam) Birkenhead Woodside-Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St and return, at peak times.
Sometimes truncated at Ditton Jn or Rock Ferry, or started at Hooton.

 

[Djgr]

Correct me if im wrong but surly there isn't going to be much difference between evacuation of a 777 and a 230 ? , But yes I agree with you on the TFW getting them working, Its a stain on the line , but that's typical TFW 231's never seen up north & 197 rarely seen up north lately or with only two cars from holyhead to Cardiff.

Clapped out diesel things , we will miss the 150s 158s and 769's when there gone ,

230s don't operate all the services. Indeed I'm not sure if they operate the majority?

On the plus side, Bidston-Wrexham is fairly self contained, although there is some freight on the Welsh side that provides the possibility of delays from elsewhere being imported onto the line (and hence the whole of the Merseyrail Wirral line network, if there were running through to Liverpool)

 

[Skie]

Correct me if im wrong but surly there isn't going to be much difference between evacuation of a 777 and a 230 ?

They lack cab end doors to start with!

 

[CarrotPie]

Correct me if im wrong but surely there isn't going to be much difference between evacuation of a 777 and a 230?

There will be when you can't get when you're in a tube tunnel!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Merseyrail is self contained because it operates those lines on Merseyside that are electrified on the 3rd rail system, and no other services. Running a microfleet of diesels for limited services to Helsby (or Ormskirk- Preston) would not be economic compared with using part of the much bigger Nortern fleet (for the same reason the Ealing-Greenford service is operated by Great Western raer than TfL).
If (and it's a big If) the battery extension to Headbolt Lane proves itself, there may be scope for extensions to Helsby, prestonm or even the Borderlands line, just as Merseyrail in the past has extended beyond Rock Ferry to Ellesmere Port and Chester as electrificatrion has expanded.
A 230 would not be permitted in the single track tunnels on the Liverpool Loop because, unlike the 777s, the 507s, 508s (and, in their final form, the 503s) they do not have emergency exits through the cab fronts. (In their origional D78 Underground forms they did, but they were replaced with solid fronts as part of the Vivarail conversion - (I don't know why - possibly to increase their crash protection up to Network rail standards? - both closing speeds and the liklihood of meeting something heavy like a freight train are much greater on NR than on LU - and LU has tripcocks, making the liklihood of a collision much lower anyway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

230s couldn't run onto the Loop but could spin on the James St disused platform. However 777s on the Borderlands is a whole lot more likely (and better).

 

[507021]

230s can't run in the Merseyrail tunnels due to evacuation requirements. TfW can barely get 2/5 working on a good day, anyway!

I think the main thing is that Merseyrail (and its 777s) are good, or at least certainly better than Northern. Battery/juice rail is better than diesel in so many ways too, so why not use these lovely new battery trains over old, clapped-out diesel things? TOCs don't care about our enthusiasts' opinions (for obvious reasons).

I wouldn't describe the 777s as "good" when they're less reliable than 230s and 769s.

 

[Djgr]

230s couldn't run onto the Loop but could spin on the James St disused platform. However 777s on the Borderlands is a whole lot more likely (and better).

I wouldn't call it disused, more "only used during disruption". Lots of interesting history on it.