Northern trialling PRT tickets from ticket machines

[Bletchleyite]

Printing on plain paper essentially means that the only evidence of the tickets legitimacy is the Aztec code.

What will merseyrail and scotrail gaurds make of these new tickets?

Goodness knows what Merseyrail will do.

ScotRail will just scan them - presumably they have scanners for the m-tickets, it's the same barcode.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Printing on plain paper essentially means that the only evidence of the tickets legitimacy is the Aztec code.

What will merseyrail and scotrail gaurds make of these new tickets?

ScotRail already use eTickets and mTickets

 

[AdamWW]

Goodness knows what Merseyrail will do.

At a guess, give the "offender" a choice between a £100 "fine" or a trip to court.

 

[northwichcat]

Goodness knows what Merseyrail will do.

Will the Merseyrail Day Savers be printed on new ticket stock from the relevant machines, or will it just be the tickets sold to a specific station served by Merseyrail e.g. Liverpool South Parkway where there might be an issue?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Will the Merseyrail Day Savers be printed on new ticket stock from the relevant machines, or will it just be the tickets sold to a specific station served by Merseyrail e.g. Liverpool South Parkway where there might be an issue?

CCST I would expect

 

[OscarH]

ScotRail already use eTickets and mTickets

Are they planning to stop being so stubborn about the former

 

[Towers]

Printing on plain paper essentially means that the only evidence of the tickets legitimacy is the Aztec code.

What will merseyrail and scotrail gaurds make of these new tickets?

Indeed, that seems a poor idea to me. Orange ‘bog roll’ stock is at least still distinctively identifiable as a rail ticket, which has both security and brand value benefits. How many other plain bits of paper accumulate in the average wallet and end up being thrown out en masse, at least currently the orange bit amongst all the other stuff is obviously a train ticket. That’s quite a powerful bit of branding there that has been built up over generations. Would suggest a rethink on plain paper, just sounds a bit ‘cheap’.

As for the size, it is important that a barcode is included of a scale which means that it is easily scanned (time is of the essence for on board staff undertaking ticket checks if the industry wants maximum throughput), but also appropriately sized and positioned so that it doesn’t end up being inevitably screwed up or folded through the middle when they’re being put away in people’s wallets etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed, that seems a poor idea to me. Orange ‘bog roll’ stock is at least still distinctively identifiable as a rail ticket, which has both security and brand value benefits.

As for the size, it is important that a barcode is included of a scale which means that it is easily scanned (time is of the essence for on board staff undertaking ticket checks if the industry wants maximum throughput), but also appropriare sized and positioned so that it doesn’t end up being inevitably screwed up or folded through the middle when they’re being put away in people’s wallets etc.

That reminds me of when my library changed their borrower cards. The old system required cards of a specific size to go into a slot. The current system involves scanning a barcode. The current card size is identical to that of a credit or debit card, even though it doesn't have to be any specific size. However, making it that size makes it easy to fit into a wallet.

 

[kkong]

Are they planning to stop being so stubborn about the former

Please refer to this thread which relates to trial ScotRail TVM at Glasgow Central which is printing e-tickets.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just needs up-to-date software for the readers on the bus that can read them properly, as I understand it.

I can't wait for the reports of people triggering CPAY TO-TO while trying to scan their PDF E-Ticket... :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't wait for the reports of people triggering CPAY TO-TO while trying to scan their PDF E-Ticket... :P

That to be fair could be an issue with any barcoded ticket (bus operators use them for mobile tickets) and is a design flaw in Ticketer - one of many! The downwards facing scanner is a good idea, but the contactless pad really should be elsewhere.

 

[MrJeeves]

That to be fair could be an issue with any barcoded ticket (bus operators use them for mobile tickets) and is a design flaw in Ticketer - one of many! The downwards facing scanner is a good idea, but the contactless pad really should be elsewhere.

To be fair, most barcode ticketing apps for buses seem to disable NFC when showing a ticket to avoid this (or at least the myTrip whitelabel rebrands do). Google Wallet has the same feature for passes, too.

You can't really do that with a PDF, though.

 

[Haywain]

I can't wait for the reports of people triggering CPAY TO-TO while trying to scan their PDF E-Ticket... :P

Doesn't the driver have to set a fare for that to happen?

 

[MrJeeves]

Doesn't the driver have to set a fare for that to happen?

Not for TO-TO (tap on, tap off).

 

[Starmill]

No reason why buses can't accept them as they are, we accept printed stock without scanning them.

Having actual PlusBus etickets would stop the select few who wave their standard station to station tickets at us drivers expecting a free ride

And of course the rather large number of buses that do not have a scanner (e.g rollout on Stagecoach is glacial) in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of course the rather large number of buses that do not have a scanner (e.g rollout on Stagecoach is glacial) in the first place.

It appears to me to pretty much only be Stagecoach and TfL. That I can recall every other bus I've been on in the past several years now has had Ticketer kit which has a scanner by default (as it's how season tickets etc are done).

 

[Starmill]

To be fair, most barcode ticketing apps for buses seem to disable NFC when showing a ticket to avoid this (or at least the myTrip whitelabel rebrands do). Google Wallet has the same feature for passes, too.

You can't really do that with a PDF, though.

I wonder if any train ticket apps do? I doubt it but it's a possibility. When scanners first appeared at stations with cpay readers it did used to happen sometimes e.g. Watford Junction.

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It appears to me to pretty much only be Stagecoach and TfL. That I can recall every other bus I've been on in the past several years now has had Ticketer kit which has a scanner by default (as it's how season tickets etc are done).

Loads of small independents I'm familiar with have the older ticketer without the scanner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if any train ticket apps do? I doubt it but it's a possibility. When scanners first appeared at stations with cpay readers it did used to happen sometimes e.g. Watford Junction.

Which gatelines have the barcode scanner anywhere near the contactless pad? It's a specific design flaw with Ticketer that places both together (which I suspect is intended so customers don't have to think about where their ticket needs to go, but has this unintended effect).

Passengers might incorrectly use the wrong bit (you do see a few people trying to tap paper travelcards on the pad) but that's a bit different, you can't really legislate for people making errors like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2024 ==

Loads of small independents I'm familiar with have the older ticketer without the scanner.

Interesting, I've never seen a Ticketer without a scanner, didn't even know they did one. Guess they must have grown the northern market before the southern one.

 

[Starmill]

Which gatelines have the barcode scanner anywhere near the contactless pad? It's a specific design flaw with Ticketer that places both together (which I suspect is intended so customers don't have to think about where their ticket needs to go, but has this unintended effect).

Passengers might incorrectly use the wrong bit (you do see a few people trying to tap paper travelcards on the pad) but that's a bit different, you can't really legislate for people making errors like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2024 ==



Interesting, I've never seen a Ticketer without a scanner, didn't even know they did one. Guess they must have grown the northern market before the southern one.

Was just from people holding the phone above the scanner at the height of the card reader.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was just from people holding the phone above the scanner at the height of the card reader.

That seems odd. I guess they must have been excessively sensitive at the start and have been calibrated since - certainly mine doesn't activate unless it's actually on the pad, not even slightly above.

 

[MrJeeves]

I wonder if any train ticket apps do?

It's something that will definitely be implemented in the TrainSplit apps if we start showing E-Tickets in the app.

Which gatelines have the barcode scanner anywhere near the contactless pad?

NS gates in the Netherlands?

I take your point that it's unlikely, but I do often see people unfamiliar with E-Tickets trying to present them to the yellow smartcard readers on Cubic gates at tourist heavy stations.

It's unlikely that blocking NFC would cause issues, but it's possible that not blocking NFC would.

 

[Starmill]

That seems odd. I guess they must have been excessively sensitive at the start and have been calibrated since - certainly mine doesn't activate unless it's actually on the pad, not even slightly above.

That does seem likely.

Bit ironic that yours doesn't work unless you make... contact though!

 

[Haywain]

Not for TO-TO (tap on, tap off).

Ah, I did wonder what TO-TO meant!

 

[Wallsendmag]

I wonder if any train ticket apps do? I doubt it but it's a possibility. When scanners first appeared at stations with cpay readers it did used to happen sometimes e.g. Watford Junction.

I doubt it as you normally don't show your ticket in the app unless you're using stoneage mTickets (or the new sTickets I suppose)

 

[Starmill]

I doubt it as you normally don't show your ticket in the app unless you're using stoneage mTickets (or the new sTickets I suppose)

Rather a lot of people with the trainline based app do exactly that. Along with of course pretty much all users of the ScotRail one.

 

[northwichcat]

Which gatelines have the barcode scanner anywhere near the contactless pad? It's a specific design flaw with Ticketer that places both together (which I suspect is intended so customers don't have to think about where their ticket needs to go, but has this unintended effect).

Passengers might incorrectly use the wrong bit (you do see a few people trying to tap paper travelcards on the pad) but that's a bit different, you can't really legislate for people making errors like that.

Interesting, I've never seen a Ticketer without a scanner, didn't even know they did one. Guess they must have grown the northern market before the southern one.

On Warrington's Own Buses and D&G Bus the driver has to select the ticket type before a contactless payment is taken. Passengers often take their card off too soon and then have to do it again. If you're scanning a ticket then you don't need to wait for the driver to press anything first. Obviously on London buses, with flat contactless payments, it works differently.

Warrington's Own Buses had m-tickets before Ticketers with scanners. I got used to showing the driver the code on my infrequent journeys with them, then one day the driver told me to place it under the scanner.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2024 ==

I doubt it as you normally don't show your ticket in the app unless you're using stoneage mTickets (or the new sTickets I suppose)

If you've purchased a number of advance tickets the app can be useful, as it sorts all your purchased tickets by date. Although, I normally download the pdf just before making the journey, so it's my most recent downloaded file.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I doubt it as you normally don't show your ticket in the app unless you're using stoneage mTickets (or the new sTickets I suppose)

Many TOCs have e-tickets in their app. And also Trainline. So I suspect a lot of people have e tickets in an app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Warrington's Own Buses and D&G Bus the driver has to select the ticket type before a contactless payment is taken. Passengers often take their card off too soon and then have to do it again. If you're scanning a ticket then you don't need to wait for the driver to press anything first. Obviously on London buses, with flat contactless payments, it works differently.

Yes, that cack-handed process (designed by a fool, it makes boarding slower than paying cash and giving change) is there to stop incorrect contactless readings when you're scanning a barcode.

However, operators with TOTO (Tap On Tap Off) don't have it, if you put your phone there immediately it will register a tap in.

 

[sheff1]

I doubt it as you normally don't show your ticket in the app unless you're using stoneage mTickets (or the new sTickets I suppose)

When I buy an e-ticket on the LNER app I use the app to show it. Am I the only person who does ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I buy an e-ticket on the LNER app I use the app to show it. Am I the only person who does ?

I prefer to put it into my Apple Wallet so I don't have to faff around opening apps - it just appears on the front screen and displays with one tap.