Could the North Mersey branch be reopened?

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ston-route-closure.254159/page-2#post-6425035

Each time I travel on the Liverpool to Southport line I gaze at the increasingly overgrown North Mersey line through Bootle and often wonder why the plans to reopening have never happened. Running alternate Ormskirk trains via North Mersey would increase the number of travel opportunities with only those served by Orrell Park loosing out with a slight service reduction.

Orrell Park, Walton and Kirkdale. Though admittedly the latter do have the Kirkby services (at Rice Lane in Walton's case, but it's so close it could almost be the same station) so it'd be less significant.

I really don't see the benefit - it'd knacker the perfect clockface timetable to serve areas of relatively low population density (Ford and Linacre Road were the proposed stations). And Bootle isn't really a big destination from the Ormskirk side, I think a good many people living between say Ormskirk and Maghull have never been there.

If you did want to get benefit out of it (say tying in residential development around the two proposed stations on it) I suppose you could do something like run a 4tph service terminating at Aintree and remove the Bank Hall and the two Bootle calls from the Southports to speed them up, though.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I suppose you could do something like run a 4tph service terminating at Aintree and remove the Bank Hall and the two Bootle calls from the Southports to speed them up, though.

It seems to me that you'd want to keep at least one Bootle stop for interchange between Southport and Aintree services.

Is the OP's vision to run it as a branch of the Northern Line (and so into Moorfields/Central)? I'd always assumed that it would make sense to head round the Canada Dock branch (I think that's the right name) and so ultimately into Lime Street, having also called at Tuebrook and so on. This would not give a fast route to the city centre, but it would give easier interchange to main line services (for the large proportion of posters here who are scared of Elliot Street) and travel across north Liverpool and South Sefton - a rail alternative to the 62 bus if you like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems to me that you'd want to keep at least one Bootle stop for interchange between Southport and Aintree services.

Is the OP's vision to run it as a branch of the Northern Line (and so into Moorfields/Central)? I'd always assumed that it would make sense to head round the Canada Dock branch (I think that's the right name) and so ultimately into Lime Street, having also called at Tuebrook and so on. This would not give a fast route to the city centre, but it would give easier interchange to main line services (for the large proportion of posters here who are scared of Elliot Street) and travel across north Liverpool and South Sefton - a rail alternative to the 62 bus if you like.

The OP was suggesting sending half the Ormskirks that way (the old Solaris did have "Ormskirk via Ford" or something like that on them envisaging just that at some point, the present service being "Ormskirk via Orrell Park") but to me that's just overcomplicating things and likely to muck up the perfect clockface timetable. My thought was something else useful to do with it.

 

[Vespa]

Not sure what benefit could be gained from it except as an alternative route to Aintree for the Grand National and a diversion route in the event of a blockage.

There used to be a mainline Grand National train from London up to the 80s IIRC, it got stopped after being attacked with bricks and stones by kids near Aintree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There used to be a mainline Grand National train from London up to the 80s IIRC, it got stopped after being attacked with bricks and stones by kids near Aintree.

That was a long-term issue on Merseyside but doesn't seem to happen like it did. It was I believe a reason for the lack of an evening service on Kirkby-Wigan.

 

[CaramellDansen]

It seems like, in the meantime, Merseyrail could benefit by turning it (and even the Canada Dock branch) into a heritage line under their control. Permitted (or even dedicated) societies could run rolling stock with Merseyrail's permissions while taking a cut of the fares. Freight could still pass through, with new stations perhaps including passing lanes for this reason, and even special services for Aintree race day could return! Perhaps, too, even adding new services for Liverpool FC match days!
Then, if Merseyrail would ever want to electrify the route using OLE (or batteries... *shudder*) to bring it officially into the network, relatively little work would need to be done to get the route into operational status, and the route will have both been protected and provided capital in the meantime! Not to mention, it would be a great attraction and could bring in tourists and volunteers from all around!! Plus, it would be a great excuse to use those abandoned tracks and platforms at Aintree, Bootle New Strand and Bootle Oriel Road.

 

[Mr. SW]

My knowledge of this part of Liverpool is pretty sketchy, but I've always wondered what to do with the North Mersey branch, but again and again, the same idea keeps popping up every time I look at it.

It should be run in association with, but not as part of the Northern Line.

Using the disused/unused formation between Bootle Oriel Road and Aintree but not beyond either, calling at Bootle New Strand, and at new stations at Litherland Linacre Road (East of the Road) and Netherton (West of Netherton Way). It will be single track with no pointwork at all except for a connection south of Oriel Road. There will be no physical connection at Aintree but there will be a separate platform.

There will be no through running onto the Bootle branch, and if there is any service south it would be a couple of rush hour only services to Central or even only as far as Sandhills.

No unnecessary frills, cheap, simple, reliable and operated by a single train as a shuttle taking about 8 minutes or so.

I don't think you could support anything more than this.

 

[CaramellDansen]

It will be single track with no pointwork at all except for a connection south of Oriel Road.

If you're right, they should at least reserve for double-track in the future. What would they use for power, anyway? Batteries, or OLE?

Merseyrail could benefit by turning it (and even the Canada Dock branch) into a heritage line under their control.

I wanted to add on to what I was saying earlier, too:
There's also opportunity for an engine/carriage shed between Harris Drive and Netherton Way (A5038) for any permanent societies, which perhaps could also double as a museum of sorts.

 

[Mr. SW]

If you're right, they should at least reserve for double-track in the future. What would they use for power, anyway? Batteries, or OLE?

Batteries. Third rail over the service connection south of Oriel Road to the platform as per Kirkby/Headbolt Lane. I wouldn't worry about double track unless the line became suddenly popular.

As for a heritage service. Umm. I suppose a Black Five and a Fairburn 4MT tank topping and tailing a mixed rake of maroon and blue-grey mark 1s run on an occasional summer Sunday...

 

[lee orrell]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex–lyr-southport–preston-route-closure.254159/page-2#post-6425035



Orrell Park, Walton and Kirkdale. Though admittedly the latter do have the Kirkby services (at Rice Lane in Walton's case, but it's so close it could almost be the same station) so it'd be less significant.

I really don't see the benefit - it'd knacker the perfect clockface timetable to serve areas of relatively low population density (Ford and Linacre Road were the proposed stations). And Bootle isn't really a big destination from the Ormskirk side, I think a good many people living between say Ormskirk and Maghull have never been there.

If you did want to get benefit out of it (say tying in residential development around the two proposed stations on it) I suppose you could do something like run a 4tph service terminating at Aintree and remove the Bank Hall and the two Bootle calls from the Southports to speed them up, though.

Can any anyone help with advice regarding this line and the land access between Harris drive and netherton way. There is big talk of development on this land and it’s been cleared using access over the tracks. Presumably if this developer goes ahead we will lose the line ?

 

[CaramellDansen]

Can any anyone help with advice regarding this line and the land access between Harris drive and netherton way. There is big talk of development on this land and it’s been cleared using access over the tracks. Presumably if this developer goes ahead we will lose the line ?

Do you have a source for this? This is quite distressing news. The North West has very few heritage lines generally (as well as our country not really needing more housing, aside from driving speculation for millionaires) so this would be a tremendous waste and a huge missed opportunity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2024 ==

There's also opportunity for an engine/carriage shed between Harris Drive and Netherton Way (A5038) for any permanent societies, which perhaps could also double as a museum of sorts.

Speaking of, I've done an EXTREMELY CRAYONISTA attempt to sketch out a very optimistic idea to stretch the limits of what could be there. Honestly, if this space is under threat, I might consider refining this to send it to my MP and Merseyrail... aside from chain myself to the tracks, I don't know what other (legal) choice I have. Some genuine criticism would be nice! (no, "ew this is optimistic, stop it" isn't genuine criticism)


Likely there would be much fewer covered siding lanes (unless half of the building gets used as a museum or something), the sidings at the bottom would likely not extend all the way to both roads, the main line likely wouldn't be double track, etc. I'm not certain which side I would prefer the exit curve (red) to be, but it's likely going to be the right (east) side one, and it certainly won't be both (to maximise storage space).

Red = exit curves Pink = siding lanes Purple = existing single-track Grey = potential double track running line Pin = original site of Ford station

 

[Bevan Price]

My knowledge of this part of Liverpool is pretty sketchy, but I've always wondered what to do with the North Mersey branch, but again and again, the same idea keeps popping up every time I look at it.

It should be run in association with, but not as part of the Northern Line.

Using the disused/unused formation between Bootle Oriel Road and Aintree but not beyond either, calling at Bootle New Strand, and at new stations at Litherland Linacre Road (East of the Road) and Netherton (West of Netherton Way). It will be single track with no pointwork at all except for a connection south of Oriel Road. There will be no physical connection at Aintree but there will be a separate platform.

There will be no through running onto the Bootle branch, and if there is any service south it would be a couple of rush hour only services to Central or even only as far as Sandhills.

No unnecessary frills, cheap, simple, reliable and operated by a single train as a shuttle taking about 8 minutes or so.

I don't think you could support anything more than this.

Personally, I think your "Netherton" is too far away from most of Netherton. If unlimted funds were available, I would suggest extending the North Mersey line beyond Aintree - with a totally new branch from Aintree to Netherton (centre) and Thornton. Also, it would be essential to have all trains running to/from Liverpool for it to have any chance of success. Having to change at a Bootle station is an unattractive option.

 

[Chester1]

The mid point of the line is about a mile away from the nearest station. I don't think any business case can get past that unless there is demand for an additional 2tph for Ormskirk one day. Its best keeping it mothballed and available for reopening if the situation changes.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Its best keeping it mothballed and available for reopening if the situation changes.

Surely the best option is heritage? It keeps the line available (so no developers or politicians get £-signs in their eyes looking at all that juicy real estate) and open for traffic (engineering works, special Aintree services and even passenger traffic if part of the line goes out of service) while bringing in at least some revenue while doing a public good (there are not enough spaces in the country preserving our history at the moment, preservation is arguably in crisis). Plus, it would be really nice to clear out that cutting given all the rubbish and overgrowth that's there.
There are no downsides, in my opinion, in using the North Mersey branch from Bootle Oriel Road to Aintree as a heritage line at least temporarily, if not permanently! Liverpool could do with some rail-based history/museum recognition, especially given how few heritage lines exist nearby!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would anyone want to run a line that runs through, er, no scenery of any note, as a heritage line? It just goes through some fairly manky and boring parts of suburban Liverpool.

With a proper fully integrated bus network it wouldn't have much of a case to exist, to be honest.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Why would anyone want to run a line that runs through, er, no scenery of any note, as a heritage line? It just goes through some fairly manky and boring parts of suburban Liverpool.

With a proper fully integrated bus network it wouldn't have much of a case to exist, to be honest.

Where do trains go when they get saved by the scrapper's torch? They have to go somewhere. Why not here? ...Unless you want more of our rail history to be melted down?

What's more useful, a dormant overgrown railway catching rubbish and graffiti, or a heritage line that isn't number 1 on the picturesque railways list? God forbid something exist but not be perfect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2024 ==

As we know, people HATE trains, people only go to heritage lines to get the same views they could get for free by walking.... oh, wait.........

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where do trains go when they get saved by the scrapper's torch? They have to go somewhere. Why not here? ...Unless you want more of our rail history to be melted down?

What's more useful, a dormant overgrown railway catching rubbish and graffiti, or a heritage line that isn't number 1 on the picturesque railways list? God forbid something exist but not be perfect.

Heritage lines don't receive subsidy, so have to stand on their own two financial feet. I can't see in a million years this managing to do so.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Heritage lines don't receive subsidy

But oil barons and tech billionaires do...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically if it's totally disused now a cycle path may be the best use for it.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Funny how that never happens to roads, no matter how disused.
There's a war on our railways and we all need to pick a side.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2024 ==

I'm certain someone's said "it's unviable" about all of your favourite heritage lines and projects.
Despite it all, we persist.

 

[8A Rail]

Surely the best option is heritage? It keeps the line available (so no developers or politicians get £-signs in their eyes looking at all that juicy real estate) and open for traffic (engineering works, special Aintree services and even passenger traffic if part of the line goes out of service) while bringing in at least some revenue while doing a public good (there are not enough spaces in the country preserving our history at the moment, preservation is arguably in crisis). Plus, it would be really nice to clear out that cutting given all the rubbish and overgrowth that's there.
There are no downsides, in my opinion, in using the North Mersey branch from Bootle Oriel Road to Aintree as a heritage line at least temporarily, if not permanently! Liverpool could do with some rail-based history/museum recognition, especially given how few heritage lines exist nearby!

A simple answer is NO and 'Bletchleyite' has given some reasons why (see below)! Likewise even with security like any inner city how long would it take to trash various things too! Just not viable or even to be considered.

However, I do agree about your latter thought but unfortunately those in higher places in the City and various Museum organisations are not interested in our historic railway past and we have quite abit too but it is just simply overlooked! They only bothered about the 'Slave Trade' and some 'Shipping'. The Museums in their stores have some historic railway items in their collections but they remain locked away in the warehouses, never to be seen light of day! Likewise, we still have some historic 'locations' but with the exception of couple voluntary organistions, the public Authorities have no interest, prefer to ignore and forget!

Why would anyone want to run a line that runs through, er, no scenery of any note, as a heritage line? It just goes through some fairly manky and boring parts of suburban Liverpool.

With a proper fully integrated bus network it wouldn't have much of a case to exist, to be honest.

Simply agree.

 

[Chester1]

Funny how that never happens to roads, no matter how disused.
There's a war on our railways and we all need to pick a side.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2024 ==

I'm certain someone's said "it's unviable" about all of your favourite heritage lines and projects.
Despite it all, we persist.

Roads have properties alongside and require access to be maintained and the government doesn't pay for the cost of fuel and maintenance of private cars. There isn't an effort to close railways that have any usage nor one to rip up this one. I think the last train on the North Mersey Branch was 15 years ago. Its in an area with a lot of stations and a decent service would require diverting trains from well used stations. The middle of the line is about a mile from a railway station in each direction with an A road served by buses into city centre! Everyone in the catchment area of the proposed stations is within a mile or so of an existing station and a much shorter walk to bus stops.

Why do you think everyone bit of track is sacred?

 

[Mr. SW]

To be completely frank, restoring the line would be very low on any list. There are better and more urgent things to be considering over the next few years such as NPR and capacity problems.

If it were to be reinstated, it would be very, very basic. Very, very simple. Very, very cheap and it will look it.

And certainly not a heritage line.

 

[CaramellDansen]

A simple answer is NO

Just not viable or even to be considered.

Sorry.

 

[Jasper Greene]

Is there any kind of organisation planning to reopen this line yet? With enough people, a lot of things are possible. If a community want the line back, heritage or mainline, it’ll come back. I completely agree with too little heritage lines in the NW. thankfully I’m in the south where you can’t go a mile without one, but it’s possible if people want to do it.

 

[Chester1]

Is there any kind of organisation planning to reopen this line yet? With enough people, a lot of things are possible. If a community want the line back, heritage or mainline, it’ll come back. I completely agree with too little heritage lines in the NW. thankfully I’m in the south where you can’t go a mile without one, but it’s possible if people want to do it.

No. Its a suggestion of one member of this site.

 

[CaramellDansen]

There isn't an effort to close railways that have any usage

Complete and utter survivor bias. You can't ride a train on a railway (therein "usage") that's now a bike path, someone's back garden, or an overgrown mess.

Why do you think everyone bit of track is sacred?

We've lost too much. We should tolerate no more losses. We simply don't get enough new track to justify ANY track closures. If you don't think there's a war against the railway, you should study what the Attlee regime (and those after him) did to the railway to prop up the fuel and automotive industries, who were already rich beyond human conception, and how they have benefitted massively from the working class having fewer and fewer choices except the car now that so many of our railways (and tramways) were destroyed by Attlee and his ideological descendants; especially in impoverished parts of the country (can't take trains away from your fellow millionaires, eh?).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2024 ==

Its a suggestion of one member of this site.

Ouch. That feels a little personal... and petty.

 

[Jasper Greene]

No. Its a suggestion of one member of this site.

Ahh. Well all things start with an idea! (Obviously not all things, but it’s a nice idea!).

 

[CaramellDansen]

Ahh. Well all things start with an idea! (Obviously not all things, but it’s a nice idea!).

This is the optimism this thread - no, this forum - needs! If we don't allow ourselves to even dream it, how will we ever allow ourselves to go and get it?

 

[Jasper Greene]

I think a good start for most of these people who want to open old railway (including myself) is to gather a society and acctually research the line etc. I’m doing a bit of research on the Princetown line as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2024 ==

This is the optimism this thread - no, this forum - needs! If we don't allow ourselves to even dream it, how will we ever allow ourselves to go and get it?

Exactly! Look at the Tallyn line, without their optimism, none of this would be here. No debate about 503s etc would be necessary, if everyone actually thought about this and really put their mind to it, not popping in a criticism to some poor person trying to reopen lines.