Throughput at gatelines with phone tickets compared to smart cards

[AlastairFraser]

Regarding the talk of using phone NFC, this already exists. It's called ITSO on mobile, but is only supported on Google Pay, and there has been no progress for a number of years publicly shown. It has existed since 2018, but in my opinion was held back by only being supported by Google. The technology needed is now supported by Apple, so there would be nothing stopping an implementation which should in theory work with any existing ITSO reader with a software update. Sadly the project has been quiet since long before that development.

The classic write ticket to ITSO card already exists and is implemented on iOs too, no?

 

[Benjwri]

The classic write ticket to ITSO card already exists and is implemented on iOs too, no?

I was referring to the ability to actually use your phone effectively as an ITSO card, so you would select the ticket in your Apple/Google wallet and tap the reader as you would for a ITSO card, or if you were paying with contactless in London.

The ability to load to ITSO from an iPhone is implemented yes.

 

[johntea]

I tried the so called 'express transit' mode on my iPhone today on London Underground which is apparently supported and...it didn't work!

The theory is you set up a card to be used for 'express transit' purposes which I did, then you're supposed to be able to tap your phone on the reader without unlocking it (it can work several hours even if the battery is 'dead' too from what I read)

Every single time I tried it no luck whatsoever until I unlocked my phone before tapping and then it worked fine!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Watching people getting on buses in London, I'd say that people using a phone to tap in rather than an Oyster card or bank card take on average 50% (maybe more) longer. My (fewer) observations of people going through Underground station barriers suggests there's a similar discrepancy there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watching people getting on buses in London, I'd say that people using a phone to tap in rather than an Oyster card or bank card take on average 50% (maybe more) longer. My (fewer) observations of people going through Underground station barriers suggests there's a similar discrepancy there.

Oyster is slightly faster. A phone in express transit mode and a card take exactly the same, I've done both. What causes delays is people not knowing about express transit mode (or it not working, I had trouble with it on my old phone but it works on my new one) and so having to faff.

By contrast on the mainline barcode scanners seem to be very slow and require a bit of waving about.

 

[AM9]

It's bizarre that with all the issues with tickets in phone mentioned in this thread, that some here still think that paper ticketing should be abolished, and it should be obligatory to use a smart phone, because they choose to live their lives on one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's bizarre that with all the issues with tickets in phone mentioned in this thread, that some here still think that paper ticketing should be abolished, and it should be obligatory to use a smart phone, because they choose to live their lives on one.

I don't recall anyone advocating that? Advocating the end to cash acceptance, yes, but that's very different. As is changing paper ticket to bog roll style.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I was referring to the ability to actually use your phone effectively as an ITSO card, so you would select the ticket in your Apple/Google wallet and tap the reader as you would for a ITSO card, or if you were paying with contactless in London.

The ability to load to ITSO from an iPhone is implemented yes.

I've seen it, but I don't think it's particularly useful. It's been implemented in Newcastle with the Pop card I believe, but I preferred to use the physical Pop card.

 

[Jimini]

I tried the so called 'express transit' mode on my iPhone today on London Underground which is apparently supported and...it didn't work!

Been using that for years now -- works a charm!

 

[Hadders]

It's bizarre that with all the issues with tickets in phone mentioned in this thread, that some here still think that paper ticketing should be abolished, and it should be obligatory to use a smart phone, because they choose to live their lives on one.

No-one is saying that smartphones are obligatory to travel by train. What is changing is that barcodes are increasingly appearing on tickets. This is a useful security measure. The barcode has the advantage that it can be printed on paper (whether ptinted at home or purchased at a station) or displayed on a smartphone.

The railway is not unique in this respect. Go to a sporting event, theatre, cinema, travel by plane and the ticket will almost certainly contain a barcode.

 

[jon81uk]

I commute twice a week using an e-ticket, open the ticket in Apple Wallet, hold it above the camera and the gate opens. Its a tiny bit slower than using contactless on the Underground but not significantly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No-one is saying that smartphones are obligatory to travel by train. What is changing is that barcodes are increasingly appearing on tickets. This is a useful security measure. The barcode has the advantage that it can be printed on paper (whether ptinted at home or purchased at a station) or displayed on a smartphone.

And also that you need nothing more than a smartphone to verify it, unlike a magstripe. Faster reading devices are available but, to use an example, I could decide to put on a ticketed event if I wanted and use Eventbrite for ticketing (other similar sites are available) and just install their app on my phone to scan the tickets. No expensive hardware or ticket blanks to buy even if I did decide I'd happily offer the option of printing a ticket for someone and shoving it in an envelope to post to them.

It's a bit crude, but the flexibility it offers is significant.

 

[stuu]

Watching people getting on buses in London, I'd say that people using a phone to tap in rather than an Oyster card or bank card take on average 50% (maybe more) longer. My (fewer) observations of people going through Underground station barriers suggests there's a similar discrepancy there.

A lot of it is people flapping unnecessarily. I see people all the time in queues going through their apps to find the Pay one, and then paying. Neither Android nor Apple pay need you to open the app, and you don't even need to unlock them for payments less than £100. It's a lack of knowledge, not a technology problem.

Onto the wider point, do any e-ticket apps use the NFC functionality of phones? and if not, why not?

 

[Starmill]

A lot of it is people flapping unnecessarily. I see people all the time in queues going through their apps to find the Pay one, and then paying. Neither Android nor Apple pay need you to open the app, and you don't even need to unlock them for payments less than £100. It's a lack of knowledge, not a technology problem.

Onto the wider point, do any e-ticket apps use the NFC functionality of phones? and if not, why not?

A lot of that is probably people who don't want to use the default card.

I wish the standard included an instant feedback of the card types accepted. That way if your Google Pay default card is American Express, and the retailer doesn't accept American Express, you could set a back up card to switch to. The only way around this currently is to set a Visa or Mastercard card as default.

 

[jon81uk]

and you don't even need to unlock them for payments less than £100.

That’s not true for iPhone. You always need to verify with face or touch for payment, except for transit express mode which will work without verification.

 

[AM9]

No-one is saying that smartphones are obligatory to travel by train. What is changing is that barcodes are increasingly appearing on tickets. This is a useful security measure. The barcode has the advantage that it can be printed on paper (whether ptinted at home or purchased at a station) or displayed on a smartphone.

The railway is not unique in this respect. Go to a sporting event, theatre, cinema, travel by plane and the ticket will almost certainly contain a barcode.

I didn't say that that a smartphone is obligatory, merely that some imply that paper tickets should go. Once all tickets are barcoded (if reading them can be made fast enough to maintain present gate throughput levels), it's tempting to play a green card by saying that unnecessary paper use is an environmental issue.
As far as the other ticket uses that you suggested go, none of them are as essential as basic land travel*, three of them are pure leisure activities.

* there are a few cases in the UK where air travel is as necessary as land travel, particularly in the Western Isles, the majority of air travel departing from and/or arriving in the UK is leisure based.

 

[Benjwri]

I've seen it, but I don't think it's particularly useful. It's been implemented in Newcastle with the Pop card I believe, but I preferred to use the physical Pop card.

I would disagree. Being able to tap a ticket rather than scan is useful in a variety of ways, not least so people don’t mess around trying to get the right angle or a screen that is cracked beyond belief.

 

[Deafdoggie]

At least he's got good patience, as technically if you can't show the ticket on request it could be a penalty fare. The guard needn't wait. Yet I do prefer common sense

That would equally apply to people searching multiple pockets & bags to locate paper tickets.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I would disagree. Being able to tap a ticket rather than scan is useful in a variety of ways, not least so people don’t mess around trying to get the right angle or a screen that is cracked beyond belief.

But writing it to a ITSO card (shouldn't even need to be any specific ITSO card, given they're all compatible) negates the impact of any technology based issues, and they're very reliable in general. It also doesn't rely on any type of "wallet" app, which is good as they're often designed poorly.

 

[bleeder4]

We hate them on board too.

"You'll just have to bear with me..."

"I'm useless at this"

"How do I find my ticket?"

"I've run out of data, can I use your hotspot to access my emails?"

"You'll have to come back to me"

"I've got tickets for 9 people on this email, stand there whilst I download each one individually click "Adobe Acrobat" "Just Once" for each one"

"My battery is on 3% and I haven't brought a charging lead, how am I going to get out of the other end in 2 hours time?"

"My grandson booked it for me and I can't get into his account because I don't know the password'

"I printed my ticket on a printer from 1997 with the resolution of a Game Boy, what do you mean it won't scan? Of course I don't have a smart phone as back up"

And a special mention to Trip.com and other rubbish derivatives that should never have passed accreditation - I can't show you my ticket at the moment, it needs a data connection and we're in Totley Tunnel - that app is particularly beloved of visiting foreign students.

When I started as a guard there was no such thing as e-tickets. I could check a train in half the time with bits of card without having to be tech support for something I have no training on whatsoever (IE how to operate the various apps) or to choose between trying to remember to call back to 15 different people scattered around the train or standing there for 5 minutes at a time waiting for them to get their act together and produce their ticket.

At least with a paper ticket they only have to work out whether the ticket is in their wallet, pocket, bra or sock.

An excellent post. That is exactly the reason why I, as a passenger, never use e-tickets. I always go with a traditional paper/card ticket from a machine or kiosk. No need to worry about charging phone, getting a signal, scratching the screen etc.

 

[yorkie]

We hate them on board too.

"You'll just have to bear with me..."

"I'm useless at this"

"How do I find my ticket?"

"I've run out of data, can I use your hotspot to access my emails?"

"You'll have to come back to me"

"I've got tickets for 9 people on this email, stand there whilst I download each one individually click "Adobe Acrobat" "Just Once" for each one"

"My battery is on 3% and I haven't brought a charging lead, how am I going to get out of the other end in 2 hours time?"

"My grandson booked it for me and I can't get into his account because I don't know the password'

"I printed my ticket on a printer from 1997 with the resolution of a Game Boy, what do you mean it won't scan? Of course I don't have a smart phone as back up"

And a special mention to Trip.com and other rubbish derivatives that should never have passed accreditation - I can't show you my ticket at the moment, it needs a data connection and we're in Totley Tunnel - that app is particularly beloved of visiting foreign students.

When I started as a guard there was no such thing as e-tickets. I could check a train in half the time with bits of card without having to be tech support for something I have no training on whatsoever (IE how to operate the various apps) or to choose between trying to remember to call back to 15 different people scattered around the train or standing there for 5 minutes at a time waiting for them to get their act together and produce their ticket.

At least with a paper ticket they only have to work out whether the ticket is in their wallet, pocket, bra or sock.

This may be an issue around your area?

On Northern, e-tickets are ubiquitous and the process is generally much quicker than with paper tickets; my Guard the other day managed to check all tickets between York and Poppleton (this was a reasonably busy train) and the same is true of busy trains between York and Church Fenton. If you go back 10 years, Guards were unlikely to get through to anyone at the very front of such services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Feb 2024 ==

An excellent post. That is exactly the reason why I, as a passenger, never use e-tickets. I always go with a traditional paper/card ticket from a machine or kiosk. No need to worry about charging phone, getting a signal, scratching the screen etc.

This debate has been done to death; there are drawbacks of paper tickets, such as you only have one copy and if you lose that, you're stuffed.

In any case, barcode tickets are the new standard, and in due course your only choice will be whether you have them on a PDF, or a printed version.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Feb 2024 ==

It's bizarre that with all the issues with tickets in phone mentioned in this thread, that some here still think that paper ticketing should be abolished, and it should be obligatory to use a smart phone, because they choose to live their lives on one.

The option of having a ticket on paper will always be there.

What won't be an option, in due course, is the older style paper tickets, without barcodes; these will be phased out.

 

[edwin_m]

An excellent post. That is exactly the reason why I, as a passenger, never use e-tickets. I always go with a traditional paper/card ticket from a machine or kiosk. No need to worry about charging phone, getting a signal, scratching the screen etc.

You can get the same result by printing out an e-ticket. I'm normally travelling with a laptop so I download the ticket there as an alternative backup.

On recent journeys on EMR and Cross Country, nearly everyone has been using e-tickets and has been ready with the phone activated when the checker gets to them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

An excellent post. That is exactly the reason why I, as a passenger, never use e-tickets. I always go with a traditional paper/card ticket from a machine or kiosk. No need to worry about charging phone, getting a signal, scratching the screen etc.

Until you lose your paper ticket, or the "ink" fades, or it gets wet. Then you have no back up at all.
I hate it when I have to have a paper ticket, there's no back-up at all other than a costly new ticket, or a bylaw offence.

 

[trebor79]

The option of having a ticket on paper will always be there.

What won't be an option, in due course, is the older style paper tickets, without barcodes; these will be phased out.

Has a solution been found for cross-London journeys?

 

[LowLevel]

This may be an issue around your area?

On Northern, e-tickets are ubiquitous and the process is generally much quicker than with paper tickets; my Guard the other day managed to check all tickets between York and Poppleton (this was a reasonably busy train) and the same is true of busy trains between York and Church Fenton. If you go back 10 years, Guards were unlikely to get through to anyone at the very front of such services.

They can be quicker, if you get a well disciplined carriage who are all ready.

It only takes one old dear who doesn't really know how to use their phone or a few people with the stupid Trip apps that need data or who haven't clicked download before view ticket on the Trainline app and have no signal to hold you up though and on a train with 250 people on it trying to remember to pass back to 5 people in different places is a pain.

I work in a lot of different places and it can rear it's head anywhere - the Hope Valley can be painful though the data service is better than it was.

Obviously we don't sell anywhere as many tickets as we used to so that element is faster - though as an old school guard I was probably one of the generation who were trained as a walking fast ticket machine who could knock out cash sales in seconds on urban lines with no TVMs or booking offices.

 

[AM9]

This debate has been done to death; there are drawbacks of paper tickets, such as you only have one copy and if you lose that, you're stuffed.

That's true but in my experience, I've never lost a paper ticket, (rail flight or anything else), but there have been more thann a few times when I've been unable to display a key document stored on my phone, whilst making train journeys. Equally, I have used e-tickets when travelling outside the NSE area, as I always print them. I've never had to take the risk of searching for a pdf file when asked to show or pass through a gateline so I neither delay a guard/inspector nor clog up a gateline (or the path to it).

 

[MattSGB]

I suggest that Birmingham Snow Hill is the best place to witness how useless people can be with e-tickets. There is very little space at Snow Hill between the gate line and the top of the stairs/escalators, so a few idiots can rapidly cause a crush. Some of the phone zombies get on the escalator (still watching their inane tiktok drivel as they walk) and only decide to start looking for their digital tickets (or in some cases frantically buying them) when they get to the top of the escalator, at which point they freeze in place right at the top of the packed escalator. Others get to the top and start taking a curious extended zig-zag route, to delay their arrival at the gates, with zero spatial awareness while they concentrate on their phone, getting in the way of everyone who is trying to walk in a straight line. Then you get the people that we have all seen who scan the wrong ticket, scan it again, and again, and a few more times, before try the next gate along, and the next etc.
Nothing is wrong with the technology in terms of speed. Something is very wrong with a significant cohort of commuters.
Meanwhile, the fare dodgers avoid it all by heading down to the Livery Street exit, where the barriers are usually open and never manned. If the barriers are closed, they simply climb over them. Sometimes you wonder why they even bother even checking tickets at all.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suggest that Birmingham Snow Hill is the best place to witness how useless people can be with e-tickets. There is very little space at Snow Hill between the gate line and the top of the stairs/escalators, so a few idiots can rapidly cause a crush. Some of the phone zombies get on the escalator (still watching their inane tiktok drivel as they walk) and only decide to start looking for their digital tickets (or in some cases frantically buying them) when they get to the top of the escalator, at which point they freeze in place right at the top of the packed escalator. Others get to the top and start taking a curious extended zig-zag route, to delay their arrival at the gates, with zero spatial awareness while they concentrate on their phone, getting in the way of everyone who is trying to walk in a straight line. Then you get the people that we have all seen who scan the wrong ticket, scan it again, and again, and a few more times, before try the next gate along, and the next etc.
Nothing is wrong with the technology in terms of speed. Something is very wrong with a significant cohort of commuters.
Meanwhile, the fare dodgers avoid it all by heading down to the Livery Street exit, where the barriers are usually open and never manned. If the barriers are closed, they simply climb over them. Sometimes you wonder why they even bother even checking tickets at all.

Never in travel history has anyone got to a ticket barrier then started searching through various pockets and bags for their paper ticket.

 

[MattSGB]

Never in travel history has anyone got to a ticket barrier then started searching through various pockets and bags for their paper ticket.

It would have been occasional amongst rush hour commuters, and you expect unpreparedness for casual travellers. But the people clogging Snow Hill do the same thing every single time. I think many of them are faffing around with the West Midlands trains app and activating their Flexi season tickets at the last moment (chancing that the barriers will be open and getting a free journey, rather than activating before boarding as they are supposed to)

 

[AM9]

Never in travel history has anyone got to a ticket barrier then started searching through various pockets and bags for their paper ticket.

Not on rail travel as far as I'm concerned, - it happens occasionally when there are families travelling, but they are usually travelling in less busy times. Now if it was buses we were discussing, there's a whole catalogue of people searching for their cash/cards/tickets/phones standing blocking the platform.