Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

I find the colours super-bland, and the white headrests will get mucky very quickly.

I'd have gone dark grey with deep purple inflections on the seats and dark grey leather headrests myself.

Also regarding luggage it should be under the seat in front of you. Taking other peoples' legroom for your bags isn't acceptable. The Pendolinos and Voyagers have a bar there to prevent you putting it under your own as do all aircraft - EMR have missed a trick with that!

Out of interest I recall TPE 185 and 802 have white head rests in 1st class, how are they fairing colour wise?

 

[The_Train]

Whilst it's new 810 trains were being described by EMR,

The ever popular Martin Lewis was describing the EMR service and how people we're standing and only one toilet was working

Martin Lewis slams 'disgraceful' East Midlands Railway service

The financial expert compared the train service to something out of the 19th century

www.nottinghampost.com

Anyone know the working he was on and the number of carriages available?

 

[Trainman40083]

Whilst it's new 810 trains were being described by EMR,

The ever popular Martin Lewis was describing the EMR service and how people we're standing and only one toilet was working

Martin Lewis slams 'disgraceful' East Midlands Railway service

The financial expert compared the train service to something out of the 19th century

www.nottinghampost.com

Yes, everyone decided to use EMR when the ECML was closed.. One line closure, and chaos reigns... If only there was a new alternative line, with capacity

 

[Mikw]

Anyone know the working he was on and the number of carriages available?

May have been last Saturday, the queue for Sheffield trains ran the entire length of St Pancras station!

 

[800001]

May have been last Saturday, the queue for Sheffield trains ran the entire length of St Pancras station!

It was today he is on about isn’t it? Engineering work on ECML Saturday to Tuesday, so all passengers from Kings Cross using midland Mainline

1F45 14:02 to Sheffield wishing left 5 late.

 

[Mikw]

It was today he is on about isn’t it? Engineering work on ECML Saturday to Tuesday, so all passengers from Kings Cross using midland Mainline

1F45 14:02 to Sheffield wishing left 5 late.

Yes, today. It was similar on Saturday when i was at St Pancras. Huge queues and crush loaded with very little turn round time.

 

[Nym]

In addition I watched a Hull Trains 802 (303, according to RTT) pass through Luton Airport Parkway yesterday afternoon and it was definitely in diesel mode too.

Anyhow, EMR issued a presser on the 810s today. There's also a YouTube video below.

Very much looks like there isn't enough clearance below them sockets in the seating area to actually fit a standard plug into.

Also, has no-one learned from the 80xs that sockets in areas of the fall range of seats don't work after the few months it takes for at least one of them to get jammed with fluff and detritus that trips out the whole circuit...?
Context: one of the jobs I was on was looking at how to solve this issue, so yes, it is one.

 

[Zamracene749]

Very much looks like there isn't enough clearance below them sockets in the seating area to actually fit a standard plug into.

Also, has no-one learned from the 80xs that sockets in areas of the fall range of seats don't work after the few months it takes for at least one of them to get jammed with fluff and detritus that trips out the whole circuit...?
Context: one of the jobs I was on was looking at how to solve this issue, so yes, it is one.

On an OBB train recently, the sockets and USB points were mounted in the overhead racks near the reading lights. Seemed a great idea to me, no fluff/spilt drinks/ deliberate insertion of chewing gum by kids(cos they can't reach) etc. Plus, the cables hung nicely out of the way.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yep that’s a fair point. Albeit I think the AT300s are only produced in 5s and 9s, certainly based on all the 8XX sub types ordered so far in the UK, so would that have led to an expensive re-engineering?

Ordering enough 5s to eventually enable all IC services to run as 10 cars would have been ideal, I suppose.

Avanti has ordered 7-car 807s (straight EMUs).
The AT300 design is supposed to be flexible, but there will be constraints just as there were for 390 extensions (8, 9 and 11 car were possible but a 10-car wasn't).

 

[Energy]

The AT300 design is supposed to be flexible, but there will be constraints just as there were for 390 extensions (8, 9 and 11 car were possible but a 10-car wasn't).

390 9 cars are DM+M+PT(&Transformer)+M+T(removed-on-8-car)+M+PT(&Transformer)+M+DM. Each transformer vehicle can only feed 3 Motor vehicles. 11 cars require an additional Trailer/Transformer (without the pantograph) and a motor vehicle. A 10-car unit should be theoretically possible but it would only be a trailer so would be lacking power (60% motored vs 63% on an 11-car and 66% on a 9-car).

80Xs supposedly can only come in an odd number of vehicles (5,7,9,11??), I'm not sure why.

5 cars is good for off-peak, and 10 cars is loads for peak services. EMR can't justify 9/10 cars all day, and a mixed fleet would be more difficult operationally and would require a much larger depot to deal with longer units.

In addition I watched a Hull Trains 802 (303, according to RTT) pass through Luton Airport Parkway yesterday afternoon and it was definitely in diesel mode too.

Anyhow, EMR issued a presser on the 810s today. There's also a YouTube video below.

Looks good, vast improvement over the IET interior.

 

[Jamesrob637]

It was today he is on about isn’t it? Engineering work on ECML Saturday to Tuesday, so all passengers from Kings Cross using midland Mainline

Hmm, was Saturday-Tuesday a lesser evil than Friday-Monday?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm, was Saturday-Tuesday a lesser evil than Friday-Monday?

Definitely. Friday evening is the busiest time of the week for the long distance railway, and it's crammed into a relatively short time period, too, unlike Sunday afternoon which is also busy but more spread out.

 

[david.stannard]

Looks like 810 001 en-route from Old Dalby to Merchant Park as 5Q47 last night had its first mainline run in electric mode, transitioning from diesel north of Peterborough at Tallington as planned. After braking to low speed (or perhaps stop?) before Little Bytham, accelerated up the steep gradients of Stoke Bank to reach near 125 mph line speed by the summit. Impressive.

Edit: Understand from information elsewhere that may still have been running in diesel mode.

 

[yorkie]

Although I see we are back on topic with the most recent post, just a gentle reminder, this is a rolling stock updates thread regarding Class 810s for EMR.

To discuss anything else, please use (or create) a separate thread; anything that is speculative in nature belongs in Speculative Discussion, please.

Many thanks

 

[Jamesrob637]

Looks like 810 001 en-route from Old Dalby to Merchant Park as 5Q47 last night had its first mainline run in electric mode, transitioning from diesel north of Peterborough at Tallington as planned. After braking to low speed (or perhaps stop?) before Little Bytham, accelerated up the steep gradients of Stoke Bank to reach near 125 mph line speed by the summit. Impressive.

Does it have a better power-to-weight ratio than other Azuma-esque trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2024 ==

Definitely. Friday evening is the busiest time of the week for the long distance railway, and it's crammed into a relatively short time period, too, unlike Sunday afternoon which is also busy but more spread out.

I suppose people could just do Wed/Thu in the office for one week or, if the employer really still insisted on a 3-day office week, Wed-Fri instead of Tue-Thu.

 

[david.stannard]

Does it have a better power-to-weight ratio than other Azuma-esque trains?

Plated weight not reported, but a bit heavier as 4 diesel engines rather than the 3 under other 5-car Hitachi bimodes. Auroras have 8 traction motors of continuous rating 290kW (2320hp) compared to 12 traction motors of CR 226kW (2712kW) so more sluggish acceleration in electric mode.

 

[Prestige15]

Where are the locations of the exhaust? can't see them anywhere form the roof i wonder

 

[gingertom]

Plated weight not reported, but a bit heavier as 4 diesel engines rather than the 3 under other 5-car Hitachi bimodes. Auroras have 8 traction motors of continuous rating 290kW (2320hp) compared to 12 traction motors of CR 226kW (2712kW) so more sluggish acceleration in electric mode.

I'd suspect the design top speed of 125mph, as opposed to the 80x's 140mph, would involve different gearing, which would go a little way to mitigate.

 

[hwl]

Plated weight not reported, but a bit heavier as 4 diesel engines rather than the 3 under other 5-car Hitachi bimodes. Auroras have 8 traction motors of continuous rating 290kW (2320hp) compared to 12 traction motors of CR 226kW (2712kW) so more sluggish acceleration in electric mode.

The IET acceleration profile /TE curve is software capped to be smooth (and more effiicient) and is noticeably below the hardware's max capabilities providing substantial redundancy in the event of equipment failure to maintain the same performance as normal. Hence comparing hardware stats isn't that useful.

 

[AndrewJM70]

I read in the current issue of Rail that EMR are expecting the fleet to be introduced before the end of 2024. If true this is obviously very good news!

 

[43066]

I read in the current issue of Rail that EMR are expecting the fleet to be introduced before the end of 2024. If true this is obviously very good news!

Highly doubtful (to the point of being laughable).

Crew training will begin later this year (AIUI they need five units complete and accepted to do static elements and high/low speed handling), with entry into passenger service early next year, with the full fleet in service by December ‘25, and none of that is set in stone.

There’s also no training agreement with ASLEF/RMT as yet…

 

[Aspen90]

I read in the current issue of Rail that EMR are expecting the fleet to be introduced before the end of 2024. If true this is obviously very good news!

Not a chance. They’re still speccing bin lids and trollies! The staff haven’t even seen one let alone touched one. Let’s hope it’s the end of 2025 and not 3025…

 

[Nym]

Highly doubtful (to the point of being laughable).

Crew training will begin later this year (AIUI they need five units complete and accepted to do static elements and high/low speed handling), with entry into passenger service early next year, with the full fleet in service by December ‘25, and none of that is set in stone.

There’s also no training agreement with ASLEF/RMT as yet…

So I'm going to assume yet another cab designed without union involvement, with Hitachi's usual level of Human Factors knowledge.

Mods teams will be nice and busy...(!)

 

[D365]

So I'm going to assume yet another cab designed without union involvement, with Hitachi's usual level of Human Factors knowledge.

Could there be instances where it may be more prudent to have the vehicles built first before full scale stakeholder involvement? I’m talking from the perspective of getting stuck in a cycle of iterating and re-iterating before even putting a FiC out the door.

 

[Nym]

Could there be instances where it may be more prudent to have the vehicles built first before full scale stakeholder involvement? I’m talking from the perspective of getting stuck in a cycle of iterating and re-iterating before even putting a FiC out the door.

For a totally new build perhaps, but there is a baseline product that can be iterated form that Hitachi can use.

For totally new builds or heavy overhauls… There’s also the joyous thing that is plywood models, which as of now seem to have fallen from human knowledge as a means for testing human factors in this industry.

 

[irish_rail]

So I'm going to assume yet another cab designed without union involvement, with Hitachi's usual level of Human Factors knowledge.

Mods teams will be nice and busy...(!)

I hope for MML drivers sake they haven't fitted the new style DSD pedals being rolled out on GWR sets. LNER have apparently (and in my view selfishly) managed to hang onto and procure the remaining stock of the decent older style pedal), so I'd guess all future 80x fleets, including EMR and Avanti will be stuck with the abysmal new style pedal.

 

[baz962]

I hope for MML drivers sake they haven't fitted the new style DSD pedals being rolled out on GWR sets. LNER have apparently (and in my view selfishly) managed to hang onto and procure the remaining stock of the decent older style pedal), so I'd guess all future 80x fleets, including EMR and Avanti will be stuck with the abysmal new style pedal.

What is bad about it.

 

[irish_rail]

What is bad about it.

It requires constant high amount of pressure to keep it down. So for a drive from say Plymouth to London , that's over 3 hours of pressure and stress to the knees, shins lower legs and ankles. I suppose on MML, the longest journeys will be what 2 hours from Sheffield to London? But too be honest, an hour or so is too much with the new type pedals...

 

[800001]

So I'm going to assume yet another cab designed without union involvement, with Hitachi's usual level of Human Factors knowledge.

Mods teams will be nice and busy...(!)

It’s the same cab as other models……

 

[jimm]

80Xs supposedly can only come in an odd number of vehicles (5,7,9,11??), I'm not sure why.

5 cars is good for off-peak, and 10 cars is loads for peak services. EMR can't justify 9/10 cars all day, and a mixed fleet would be more difficult operationally and would require a much larger depot to deal with longer units.

Looks good, vast improvement over the IET interior.

If the moderators would allow me just a tiny bit of leeway to clarify the question of formation lengths, the DfT's Intercity Express Programme specification for what became the 80x series of trains set a maximum permitted length for a formation at 312 metres - ie a 12-car formation of 26m coaches (see page 19, section 3.3) and a minimum length of 130m - ie a 5-car formation.

This note suggests that any length of train within those limits is permitted - though obviously local infrastructure like platform lengths at the likes of St Pancras, King's Cross and Paddington can also play a part in decision-making.

It must be possible to add Intermediate IEP Vehicles to an IEP Unit subject to the IEP Unit still being no greater than the maximum length identified in TS223.

In Annex D of the specification (sections 2 & 3, pages 77-79) there is a set of train formations, showing what facilities would be required in 5-car (including a high-density version without a kitchen), 8-car, 9-car, 10-car, 11-car and 12-car formations. The last three were described as 'indicative for pricing purposes only'.

The full specification is at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf