xx39 services out of Waterloo

[nw1]

Have to admit I've lost track somewhat with the current state of things on the SWML. However I was under the impression that the xx39 services (the Poole semi-fast / stopper) at least ran in the peak time.

Looking at the timetables however they are still not back, even during the peak. Result is that Eastleigh, for example, still has just an hourly service from London even in the peak.

I realise usage isn't quite up to pre-Covid, but even still, the overall SWR mainline/outer-suburban peak timetable remains considerably worse than at any point from 1967 to 2019. I've not travelled in the Mon-Fri peak for years but presumably the overcrowding on the SWML must be pretty bad.

Are there any plans on restoring the xx39 at least in the peak?

Compared with say Chiltern and LNWR who have made a good effort to draw up a usable post-Covid timetable with a decent number of peak extras, SWR's effort seems pretty spartan. The only outer-suburban route which has a peak uplift appears to be the Portsmouth Direct, which increases from 3 to 4 tph by filling the "gap" which exists off peak. To me it's still very much a "Covid" timetable, I can imagine commuting with SWR must be quite a challenge at the moment!

It's a shame (IMO) that the "South Western" network is a shadow of its former self and the service is (IMV) a pale shadow of the glory days from 1967 to 2019. Just glad I got to experience the network during part of those glory days, from 1982 onwards.

On another matter, what now happens with the xx09 Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh in terms of interworking? It always used to interwork with the xx39 (mostly, though with some exceptions). The up service now arrives xx09, just as the down departs so presumably it still interworks with something, but something else.

 

[ValleyLines142]

On another matter, what now happens with the xx09 Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh in terms of interworking? It always used to interwork with the xx39 (mostly, though with some exceptions). The up service now arrives xx09, just as the down departs so presumably it still interworks with something, but something else.

Don't quote me but I believe the xx:09 terminators interwork with the Altons at 23 past, and then I believe the other Alton interworks with one of the Basingstokes stoppers, and the other Basingstoke stopper arrival then forms the xx:09 Pompeys.

 

[JonathanH]

However I was under the impression that the xx39 services (the Poole semi-fast / stopper) at least ran in the peak time.

It runs south of Winchester as far as Bournemouth.

 

[nw1]

Don't quote me but I believe the xx:09 terminators interwork with the Altons at 23 past, and then I believe the other Alton interworks with one of the Basingstokes stoppers, and the other Basingstoke stopper arrival then forms the xx:09 Pompeys.

Ah OK, thanks for that. Any of those diagrams still 444, incidentally? And more generally, do 444s appear on anything other than the SWML fasts these days?

 

[JonathanH]

I realise usage isn't quite up to pre-Covid, but even still, the overall SWR mainline/outer-suburban peak timetable remains considerably worse than at any point from 1967 to 2019. I've not travelled in the Mon-Fri peak for years but presumably the overcrowding on the SWML must be pretty bad.

Why must the overcrowding be 'pretty bad'? We are told that it is the longer distance commuters who have chosen not to travel as much as they did before 2020. There are peak uplifts inside Basingstoke. If the commuting pattern has changed, then reintroducing the 2019 timetable isn't the way forward because it doesn't prioritise the places where there is now the most demand.

The only outer-suburban route which has a peak uplift appears to be the Portsmouth Direct, which increases from 3 to 4 tph by filling the "gap" which exists off peak. To me it's still very much a "Covid" timetable, I can imagine commuting with SWR must be quite a challenge at the moment!

I'm not sure that is true. There is a different pattern to Basingstoke as well and 12-car trains.

The concept of looking at the 2019 timetable and saying that is how trains should run now is just plain wrong, but the opportunity to fully recast to reflect the new patterns hasn't happened yet.

 

[nw1]

It runs south of Winchester as far as Bournemouth.

Realised that, though that doesn't of course help the commuters out of London; I'd have thought that there would at least be demand for a 1739 peak additional (even if no 1639 or 1839), given that in normal times there was both a 1739 and a 1748.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Why must the overcrowding be 'pretty bad'? We are told that it is the longer distance commuters who have chosen not to travel as much as they did before 2020. There are peak uplifts inside Basingstoke. If the commuting pattern has changed, then reintroducing the 2019 timetable isn't the way forward because it doesn't prioritise the places where there is now the most demand.

Because there appear to be few additionals in the peak, even closer to London. I realise commuting isn't quite as big as it was, but it's not near-zero either.

I'm not sure that is true. There is a different pattern to Basingstoke as well and 12-car trains.

The Basingstoke stoppers seem to remain 2tph, though admittedly they skip the stations north of Woking. Even still, it's unprecedented in my years of using the South Western network not to see extra peak stoppers down to Basingstoke.

The concept of looking at the 2019 timetable and saying that is how trains should run now is just plain wrong, but the opportunity to fully recast to reflect the new patterns hasn't happened yet.

Hopefully that recast will come before too long; as I said Chiltern and LNWR have taken a more proactive approach.

And it's not just the 2019 timetable, if you compare against basically any timetable from the late 60s to the 10s it's a pretty thin peak service. Is there really only demand for 1tph in the peak to Eastleigh, just to give one example? Or 2tph to Winchfield and Hook? Or 3tph to Farnborough and Fleet?

 

[CarrotPie]

Hopefully that recast will come before too long; as I said Chiltern and LNWR have taken a more proactive approach.

Probably because their traffic has bounced back more? It doesn't make sense for SWR to run a full pre-COVID peak if only half the commuters are turning up.

 

[swt_passenger]

Realised that, though that doesn't of course help the commuters out of London; I'd have thought that there would at least be demand for a 1739 peak additional (even if no 1639 or 1839), given that in normal times there was both a 1739 and a 1748.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==


Because there appear to be few additionals in the peak. I realise commuting isn't quite as big as it was, but it's not near-zero either.

The Basingstoke stoppers seem to remain 2tph, though admittedly they skip the stations north of Woking. Even still, it's unprecedented in my years of using the South Western network not to see extra peak stoppers down to Basingstoke.

Hopefully that recast will come before too long; as I said Chiltern and LNWR have taken a more proactive approach.

And it's not just the 2019 timetable, if you compare against basically any timetable from the late 60s to the 10s it's a pretty thin peak service.

I think in the afternoon peak a Basingstoke stopper (as 2T?), gets extended to Portsmouth, so the pattern of local services through Winchester to Portsmouth increases to half hourly for that short period. So for travel on that route segment that’s basically the same as pre 2000 as seen at Eastleigh. Perhaps the more local journeys have bounced back, but not those from Waterloo?

Back then the it was the afternoon peak xx39s that were diverted to Portsmouth, for the Southampton direction from Eastleigh the trains were various short workings, you had to change for Poole.

 

[nw1]

I think in the afternoon peak a Basingstoke stopper (as 2T?), gets extended to Portsmouth, so the pattern of local services through Winchester to Portsmouth increases to half hourly for that short period. So for travel on that route segment that’s basically the same as pre 2000 as seen at Eastleigh. Perhaps the more local journeys have bounced back, but not those from Waterloo?

Back then the it was the afternoon peak xx39s that were diverted to Portsmouth, for the Southampton direction from Eastleigh the trains were various short workings, you had to change for Poole.

So the capacity is still there down to Fareham. Ironically in that case Fareham would get the option of 2tph from London by changing, whereas Eastleigh does not. I guess the commuter market from the Eastleigh area has just dropped away (even though somewhere like Chandlers Ford is the sort of place that I can imagine would be home to London commuters)?

That said, even Winchester has effectively no peak additionals from London now.

 

[swt_passenger]

So the capacity is still there down to Fareham. Ironically in that case Fareham would get the option of 2tph from London by changing, whereas Eastleigh does not. I guess the commuter market from the Eastleigh area has just dropped away (even though somewhere like Chandlers Ford is the sort of place that I can imagine would be home to London commuters)?

I‘ve always suspected many London commuters from that area still drive to Parkway, and the Romsey rounders are far more about local journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

I guess the commuter market from the Eastleigh area has just dropped away (even though somewhere like Chandlers Ford is the sort of place that I can imagine would be home to London commuters)?

At 90 minutes from London, and with a return ticket verging on £100, is there really a commuter market from Eastleigh to London? The sort of person who would travel that kind of distance and expending that sort of money is going to need to be in a well paid job, and many of those are the jobs where people are now working predominantly from home, with occasional trips to the office. So it does seem likely that the market for commuting will have dropped out.

 

[swt_passenger]

At 90 minutes from London, and with a return ticket verging on £100, is there really a commuter market from Eastleigh to London? The sort of person who would travel that kind of distance and expending that sort of money is going to need to be in a well paid job, and many of those are the jobs where people are now working predominantly from home, with occasional trips to the office. So it does seem likely that the market for commuting will have dropped out.

The traditional 5 days per week commuter will have paid significantly less for his weekly season though. This is an area where weekly seasons to London usually cost less than two anytime returns…

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

Have to admit I've lost track somewhat with the current state of things on the SWML. However I was under the impression that the xx39 services (the Poole semi-fast / stopper) at least ran in the peak time.

Looking at the timetables however they are still not back, even during the peak. Result is that Eastleigh, for example, still has just an hourly service from London even in the peak.

I realise usage isn't quite up to pre-Covid, but even still, the overall SWR mainline/outer-suburban peak timetable remains considerably worse than at any point from 1967 to 2019. I've not travelled in the Mon-Fri peak for years but presumably the overcrowding on the SWML must be pretty bad.

Are there any plans on restoring the xx39 at least in the peak?

Compared with say Chiltern and LNWR who have made a good effort to draw up a usable post-Covid timetable with a decent number of peak extras, SWR's effort seems pretty spartan. The only outer-suburban route which has a peak uplift appears to be the Portsmouth Direct, which increases from 3 to 4 tph by filling the "gap" which exists off peak. To me it's still very much a "Covid" timetable, I can imagine commuting with SWR must be quite a challenge at the moment!

It's a shame (IMO) that the "South Western" network is a shadow of its former self and the service is (IMV) a pale shadow of the glory days from 1967 to 2019. Just glad I got to experience the network during part of those glory days, from 1982 onwards.

On another matter, what now happens with the xx09 Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh in terms of interworking? It always used to interwork with the xx39 (mostly, though with some exceptions). The up service now arrives xx09, just as the down departs so presumably it still interworks with something, but something else.

Pretty sure that swr said they’d restore is as far as soton in their December 2022 timetable consultation, although it’s only returned as a Winchester to Southampton shuttle

 

[swt_passenger]

Pretty sure that swr said they’d restore is as far as soton in their December 2022 timetable consultation, although it’s only returned as a Winchester to Southampton shuttle

It’s an odd service because it’s now Poole or Bournemouth to Winchester in the up direction. In the down it used to have a long dwell at Southampton and another at Brockenhurst, that meant nobody used it as a through train to Poole. When they removed all the dwell at Brockenhurst the down service was then split at Southampton, and the unit goes to the sidings. So it’s two separate services in one direction, quite unusual I think?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Ah OK, thanks for that. Any of those diagrams still 444, incidentally? And more generally, do 444s appear on anything other than the SWML fasts these days?

I'm not too sure to be honest, I know 444s are mainly tied to Portsmouth fasts and Weymouth services these days. There did used to be one or two 444 diagrams on Alton services but I don't think they're on there now post-COVID. I know there a few 444+450 workings that do happen a lot now!

 

[JonathanH]

It’s an odd service because it’s still Poole to Winchester in the up direction.

Generally Bournemouth to Winchester now I think.

Branksome and Parkstone are now served by one of the Weymouth services, and a portion dropped off the other Weymouth.

 

[nw1]

It’s an odd service because it’s now Poole or Bournemouth to Winchester in the up direction. In the down it used to have a long dwell at Southampton and another at Brockenhurst, that meant nobody used it as a through train to Poole. When they removed all the dwell at Brockenhurst the down service was then split at Southampton, and the unit goes to the sidings. So it’s two separate services in one direction, quite unusual I think?

Messy, that's for sure, having such an asymmetric service. So it's no longer xx30 out of SOU? (Actually now you mention it, that rings a bell. I do travel to Beaulieu Road in the spring and summer occasionally and I'm sure I was caught out by the service not being at xx30 when I thought it was).

I wonder whether they could make the timetable neater by advertising the up service as two separate services too, even if in practice the Bournemouth-Southampton then continues as the Southampton-Winchester? This would add consistency to the timetable.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

I'm not too sure to be honest, I know 444s are mainly tied to Portsmouth fasts and Weymouth services these days. There did used to be one or two 444 diagrams on Alton services but I don't think they're on there now post-COVID. I know there a few 444+450 workings that do happen a lot now!

Ah ok thanks. Pre-COVID quite a few xx09 and xx39 were 444s (about 50% Mon-Fri but 100% on Sat), and there were a small number of 444s to Alton, presumably for operational convenience. I was lucky enough to salvage a few CWNs from the UK Modern EMUs group (from 2007, 2009 and 2012) before it went down, so I still have a record of the "glory days" of the Desiro era. Interestingly the diagramming was remarkably consistent for several years during this period, despite some often rather complex interworking at Waterloo.

So if anyone wants any info about diagrams from that period, do let me know.

I guess the Portsmouth fast services and slow service (only one now) no longer interwork?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Ah ok. Pre-COVID quite a few xx09 and xx39 were 444s (about 50% Mon-Fri but 100% on Sat). I was lucky enough to salvage a few CWNs from the UK Modern EMUs group (from 2007, 2009 and 2012) before it went down, so I still have a record of the "glory days" of the Desiro era.

So if anyone wants any info about diagrams from that period, do let me know.

I guess the Portsmouth fast services and slow service (only one now) no longer interwork?

From experience, it looks as if the stoppers are mostly 8-car 450s, with a few 12s in the peaks.

A few of the fasts via Haslemere are booked for 450s too, but the majority are 444s.

 

[nw1]

From experience, it looks as if the stoppers are mostly 8-car 450s, with a few 12s in the peaks.

A few of the fasts via Haslemere are booked for 450s too, but the majority are 444s.

OK, thanks. Again different to the period around 2010 when both fasts and stoppers had a mix of 444s and 450s, due to the interworking.

So the return of 444s to the fasts is going back to the "old days" in some ways when near 100% of the "81" fasts would be operated variously by CIG/BEP combos or 442s, depending on the era, and the "82" semi-fasts (typically a mix of CIGs and VEPs) would operate separately, with some interworking with other class 2 services.

Would be interested to hear if any of the xx09 Portsmouth via Eastleigh services remain 444.

 

[ValleyLines142]

OK, thanks. Again different to the period around 2010 when both fasts and stoppers had a mix of 444s and 450s, due to the interworking.
So the return of 444s to the fasts is going back to the "old days" in some ways when near 100% of the "81" fasts would be operated variously by CIG/BEP combos or 442s, depending on the era.

Indeed.

Personally I don't mind the 450s but I'd rather a 444 from Pompey to Waterloo because of tables etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Generally Bournemouth to Winchester now I think.

Yes I remembered soon after writing it…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Messy, that's for sure, having such an asymmetric service. So it's no longer xx30 out of SOU? (Actually now you mention it, that rings a bell. I do travel to Beaulieu Road in the spring and summer occasionally and I'm sure I was caught out by the service not being at xx30 when I thought it was).

Yes, it’s about half an hour later from Southampton, typically xx58 so I assume they felt hogging platform 3B for nearly 40 mins wasn’t practical. I expect the two separate trains run in their original timings Winchester to Southampton, and later on pick up the original Brockenhurst to Bournemouth all stations stopper train times.

I wonder if the Waterloo to Winchester semi fast section of the route is ever reinstated that they’ll leave the service with a long split at Southampton, or go back to the old dwell at Brockenhurst?

 

[Taunton]

Probably because their traffic has bounced back more? It doesn't make sense for SWR to run a full pre-COVID peak if only half the commuters are turning up.

Not just the peak service. I use this out to customers around Richmond, whose local staff tell me that, on the main Barnes to Feltham section, apart from the main stations at Richmond and Twickenham all the others now only have a daytime half-hourly service, which kills "turn up and go" for them. Likewise everywhere along the Hounslow Loop.

Regarding peak commuters down the SWML, not everyone is going to Waterloo. There's guite a flow from Eastleigh/Winchester/Basingstoke to Farnborough, for example. Going down the line only yesterday, I noticed far more passengers boarding at Vauxhall and Clapham than had done so at Waterloo, which must surely be an issue for running everything on the fasts nonstop to Waterloo in the peak, for line capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

I use this out to customers around Richmond, whose local staff tell me that, on the main Barnes to Feltham section, apart from the main stations at Richmond and Twickenham all the others now only have a daytime half-hourly service, which kills "turn up and go" for them. Likewise everywhere along the Hounslow Loop.

When you say it kills "turn up and go", is the inference that people no longer travel, find another means, or simply use the timetable?

In the case of the absence of the xx39 from Waterloo towards Southampton, how much does this actually put people off travelling given it doesn't actually prevent any particular journey from being made.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Have to admit I've lost track somewhat with the current state of things on the SWML. However I was under the impression that the xx39 services (the Poole semi-fast / stopper) at least ran in the peak time.

Looking at the timetables however they are still not back, even during the peak. Result is that Eastleigh, for example, still has just an hourly service from London even in the peak.

I realise usage isn't quite up to pre-Covid, but even still, the overall SWR mainline/outer-suburban peak timetable remains considerably worse than at any point from 1967 to 2019. I've not travelled in the Mon-Fri peak for years but presumably the overcrowding on the SWML must be pretty bad.

Are there any plans on restoring the xx39 at least in the peak?

Compared with say Chiltern and LNWR who have made a good effort to draw up a usable post-Covid timetable with a decent number of peak extras, SWR's effort seems pretty spartan. The only outer-suburban route which has a peak uplift appears to be the Portsmouth Direct, which increases from 3 to 4 tph by filling the "gap" which exists off peak. To me it's still very much a "Covid" timetable, I can imagine commuting with SWR must be quite a challenge at the moment!

It's a shame (IMO) that the "South Western" network is a shadow of its former self and the service is (IMV) a pale shadow of the glory days from 1967 to 2019. Just glad I got to experience the network during part of those glory days, from 1982 onwards.

On another matter, what now happens with the xx09 Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh in terms of interworking? It always used to interwork with the xx39 (mostly, though with some exceptions). The up service now arrives xx09, just as the down departs so presumably it still interworks with something, but something else.

As someone who lives a fifteen minute drive from Farnborough Main, I certainly miss the luxury of my hourly o'clock Waterloo service which was non-stop to Clapham Junction (usually a 444 too). That was the up working of this service, ex Poole. Felt like you were really getting somewhere efficiently, rather than on the woeful stoppers from there and Aldershot, and the **:30 which is often a packed four car 450 and gets all the more busy at Woking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Ah OK, thanks for that. Any of those diagrams still 444, incidentally? And more generally, do 444s appear on anything other than the SWML fasts these days?

I'm not too sure to be honest, I know 444s are mainly tied to Portsmouth fasts and Weymouth services these days. There did used to be one or two 444 diagrams on Alton services but I don't think they're on there now post-COVID. I know there a few 444+450 workings that do happen a lot now!

The exclusive stock for Weymouth services, and sharing with 450s on Portsmouth via Guildford.

On the Alton and Basingstoke semi-fast side of things, we've enjoyed a handful of 444s a day, since they were reintroduced about a year ago now.

Every day this week they've been:
06:53 London Waterloo to Alton / 08:44 Alton to London Waterloo - 5-444.
10:12 London Waterloo to Basingstoke / 11:54 Basingstoke to London Waterloo - 5-444
13:53 London Waterloo to Alton / 15:44 Alton to London Waterloo - 10 car 444.

There used to be a fairly even split on Portsmouth via Basingstoke, but this is now almost exclusively booked for 450s most of the time, except for on Sundays when they form off of Poole services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

In the case of the absence of the xx39 from Waterloo towards Southampton, how much does this actually put people off travelling given it doesn't actually prevent any particular journey from being made.

It certainly puts me off travelling from Farnborough. Losing the hourly non-stop service from Waterloo is enough to switch my family to Guildford.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

I’m no expert but I have a feeling that SWR currently don’t have enough fleet to reinstate the xx:39 fully since most of the 450 fleet is being used to replace the suburban fleet which has gone/out of miles.

Perhaps with the introduction of the 701s (and the 458/4s if they’re ever introduced), then maybe we will see a return of the Poole stopper?

Then again, there may just not be enough demand for it to return.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m no expert but I have a feeling that SWR currently don’t have enough fleet to reinstate the xx:39 fully since most of the 450 fleet is being used to replace the suburban fleet which has gone/out of miles.

Perhaps with the introduction of the 701s (and the 458/4s if they’re ever introduced), then maybe we will see a return of the Poole stopper?

Then again, there may just not be enough demand for it to return.

The odd thing is though, is that the only part the service does not run on anymore, excluding the Bournemouth Poole stub if we're going to be pernickety, is the busiest section! There's certainly enough demand for the return of a Waterloo - Clapham Jct - Farnborough - Fleet* - Basingstoke - Winchester service.

*This call is currently stood in for by the Portsmouth via Basingstoke service, which used to run blissfully non-stop between Farnborough and Fleet. Basingstoke

 

[hassaanhc]

Ah OK, thanks for that. Any of those diagrams still 444, incidentally? And more generally, do 444s appear on anything other than the SWML fasts these days?

On the Alton and Basingstoke semi-fast side of things, we've enjoyed a handful of 444s a day, since they were reintroduced about a year ago now.

Currently, there's even a 444 via Hounslow and Staines on weekday evenings! 1S77 2322 London Waterloo to Woking usually produces a single unit.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I was lucky enough to salvage a few CWNs from the UK Modern EMUs group (from 2007, 2009 and 2012) before it went down, so I still have a record of the "glory days" of the Desiro era. Interestingly the diagramming was remarkably consistent for several years during this period, despite some often rather complex interworking at Waterloo.

So if anyone wants any info about diagrams from that period, do let me know.

2012 was a busy year, as it was decided to reissue the base plan CWNs specifically for the Olympics, in addition to the normal reissue dates each year. The idea to make it easier for everyone on the ground for those few hectic weeks.

 

[JonathanH]

It certainly puts me off travelling from Farnborough. Losing the hourly non-stop service from Waterloo is enough to switch my family to Guildford.

That, of course, doesn't represent a loss of traffic to the railway, just displacement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That, of course, doesn't represent a loss of traffic to the railway, just displacement.

Yes, because I happen to live in between the two, so driving to Guildford is not much longer than driving to Farnborough. Those who actually live in Farnborough may well jump onto the adjacent M3.