London Overground line names announced

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The cost is the same irrespective of what name you choose. And splitting out the Overground spaghetti is long overdue.

Do they?

And even if they do, what's wrong with that?

Don’t even think about deliberately only quoting a tiny part of my very lengthy post so as to make it look a different way Notice how my next sentence was - there’s nothing wrong with that. Literally the start of the next paragraph. The audacity there is really quite something;

Its blatantly obvious that they’ve not chosen them because they’re good names or to honour history, but because they link to minority groups and they know that will appease progressives that aren’t satisfied that things are diverse enough, thereby promoting themselves as inclusive and progressive without actually taking any genuinely helpful action. Similarly to how the BBC and ITV had a moral panic and mass hired TV anchors of ethnic minority groups not long ago just to stop people saying only white men read the news.

There’s nothing wrong with that (although re. the example there, I personally would not want to be hired purely to make the employer look good, I’d be insulted to be take on for anything other than my abilities and suitability) but it cannot be denied that it’s clear virtue signalling by TfL to make the Mayor look good. Anyone who disagrees is in denial.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2024 ==

Putting words into peoples mouth again

Yes exactly! It’s a very manipulative tactic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don’t you even think about deliberately only quoting a tiny part of my very lengthy post so as to make it look a different way

The quote was nothing wrong with that but

it cannot be denied that it’s clear virtue signalling by TfL to make the Mayor look good. Anyone who disagrees is in denial.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but that doesn't sound very much like you genuinely think there's nothing wrong with it?

 

[NorthKent1989]

on the other hand, has repeatedly made comments about it being a "girls team" and "like the 9th step of men's football". I don't know why they would keep mentioning that if their dislike of the name was purely aesthetic.

Disliking the name is not the same as me dislike women’s football whatsoever, and I’ve not even referred to the fact it’s a girls team at all, other than to point out it’s a nickname for them, please do not put words into my mouth

 

[DjU]

Where is the recent mass hire of ethnic minority groups? Seems like they have had many people that aren't white men reading the news for 40 years.

Quite. It's almost amazing the weird scenarios people make up in their minds to make things fit.

 

[Purple Train]

The important thing is that the unwieldly map should hopefully now be a lot easier to follow.

Indeed. And it isn't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The quote was nothing wrong with that but

Maybe I'm being unfair, but that doesn't sound very much like you genuinely think there's nothing wrong with it?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it per say, I was simply replying to a user who asked how it was virtue signaling. I explained how it was virtue signalling. And indeed, I think such virtue signalling pointless when it’s done so deliberately obviously. But nowhere did I say there was something wrong with it. The twisting of other people’s posts is unfair, yes, and I really beg that you stop.

 

[DjU]

Depends why you don't like it.

If you don't like it because it's naff- fine. I'd probably agree- it's the weakest of all of them, although it does have a nice alliteration.

@NorthKent1989, on the other hand, has repeatedly made comments about it being a "girls team" and "like the 9th step of men's football". I don't know why they would keep mentioning that if their dislike of the name was purely aesthetic.

Think you may have had a swing an a miss there. Agree with your points but not sure it was NorthKent1989 that made *those* comments.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Disliking the name is not the same as me dislike women’s football whatsoever, and I’ve not even referred to the fact it’s a girls team at all, please do not put words into my mouth

You have:

It’s the nickname for the girls national football team

Although the other posts I was thinking of were actually from another poster- apologies for that, I'll edit accordingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2024 ==

And indeed, I think such virtue signalling pointless when it’s done so deliberately obviously. But nowhere did I say there was something wrong with it. The twisting of other people’s posts is unfair, yes, and I really beg that you stop.

My interpretation of what you wrote was based on the words after the but, in the same way when someone says "with all due respect" it usually precedes something very disrespectful. Again, apologies if this was not what you were saying.

 

[James H]

this has all come from a organisation that says they’re broke, well no wonder if they spend money on naming lines that are meaningless, just sums up Khan’s tenure as mayor quite frankly

Naming the Overground lines was a manifesto commitment at the last election.

 

[NorthKent1989]

You have:

Not in the way you claimed I referred to them though

 

[DjU]

Putting words into peoples mouth again

They didn't put any words in their mouth. They asked what bad about that scenario.

They had intimated that something was only done for a certain reason, that naturally leads to the logical conclusion that they see some issue with that scenario. Thus they were asking.

It's always fun that as soon as someone is ever asked about something they use innuendo to skirt round or when it is taken to the next logical step and that starts looks unfavorable- that it reverts straight to the "words in mouth" or out of context defence!
And then the resulting answer ends up being exactly what was implied.

 

[urbophile]

Unlike, say, Trafalgar Square or Waterloo?

Good response telstarbox! One could argue that Elizabeth Line is also political. Victoria too (though at second hand I suppose, since the station was already there). But the Establishment never thinks that support for them is political.

 

[thomalex]

Unlike, say, Trafalgar Square or Waterloo?

They were named after existing locations. Waterloo was by Waterloo bridge for example, it wasn’t a political act by transport companies of the day.

 

[DjU]

Although I guess if this increases the political pressure to actually build some Overground platforms at Brixton, it might not be a bad thing

I was thinking the same thing. It does certainly load ammo in that particular argument next time the topic comes around again in the local press and transport initiatives.

 

[moonarrow458]

Left wing here but hate the new names, i much prefer geographical names but that is because i value practicality and substance over style. Perhaps my least favourite ine is the Mildmay line, how does that in any way represent those on the western ends of the line ie, Richmond Branch, West London line branch to Clapham. Theres not a station on the line called Mildmay, the place its named after Mildmay hospital is nowhere near the line.

Goblin line
Harlequin/Watford DC
North London Line/ North London Orbital (with West London branch specifically for trains to/from Clapham)
East London line/South London Orbital
Tottenstow lines
Emerson Park line

Those would be my suggestions. These new names do i agree seem to politically motivated which doesnt fit well for public transport which should be open and accessible to all, and thereby not promoting one ideology or another. People have already mentioned the issues with windrush line favouring one subset of immigrants over others, a lot of the names seem to have very weak ties to the places the lines serve. Sure the lines needed seperating for increased customer clarity but for me the way they've done this i cannot get behind it. As i say Public transport, it should be open and accessible to all. The fact this thread has got highly political indicates that these names are not inclusive for all. Politicians building monuments after themselves is not a good use of public resources, be they left wing, centre or right wing.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I don't really mind the line names (other than the Goblin) but I'm suprised no one's mentioned that they didn't change the design of the lines themselves. I would have expected them to do so as now all the lines look like they are of the same mode as the Elizabeth line...

 

[urbophile]

What location does the Jubilee Line refer to? The Elizabeth Line?

Indeed. Few of the Underground lines describe their location. Central perhaps. Northern is downright misleading. District is meaningless, as (except in historical terms) is the Metropolitan.

 

[JJmoogle]

I don't really mind the line names (other than the Goblin) but I'm suprised no one's mentioned that they didn't change the design of the lines themselves. I would have expected them to do so as now all the lines look like they are of the same mode as the Elizabeth line...

I think that's kind of intentional, the Liz is basically a fancy 'Overground' (A TfL service on national rail)

I thought they might do Thameslink too but I guess since they don't run that it doesn't get the special treatment aside from being on the tube map.

 

[norbitonflyer]

meaningless, as (except in historical terms) is the Metropolitan.

It's not even the original Metropolitan Railway, which went to Paddington (later extended to Hammersmith) but the "St Johns Wood branch"

 

[Senex]

What relationship does any of the new names have to a railway place or a railway line? At least the Tube/Underground names so appear to have some connection (despite what is said above, and except for Boris Johnson's absurd politically-correct Elizabeth Line for the perfect satisfactoriy named Crossrail), but this new set does just seem to be concerned with trendiness and wokeness.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It’s the nickname for the girls national football team,

The women's team, not the girls (under 18s)

Unless you want to call Harry Kane et al "boys"

The Lion Line would sound even sillier though

 

[jon0844]

Your calling reasoned discussion a strop, rather than offering any serious counter arguments, and saying people shouldnt say anything because ultimately nothing we say he matters , but thats thr same for basically any thread here. Nobody will listen to us about a new platform at some other station.

Even if you think theirs nothing politcal about the names , i wouldnt call all the people suggesting a numerical s bahn system reactionaries having a strop.

But the comment was true. People are going to take this thread to 50 or 100+ pages, and eventually everyone will just accept the names and it will slow to a trickle.

It was a factual statement, whereas you were suggesting someone stop contributing to a thread on a forum. Perhaps you don't fully appreciate how discussions work?

It's little different to how people got so upset about the seats on a class 700 (and before that, 387s etc) and now they're virtually never mentioned at all.

This thread will quieten down and we'll eventually stop seeing the word woke thrown around like confetti. But we've got a little way to go yet!

 

[birchesgreen]

The women's team, not the girls (under 18s)

Unless you want to call Harry Kane et al "boys"

The Lion Line would sound even sillier though

To be fair many fans and media refer to the men's team as "our boys".

 

[bramling]

The cost is the same irrespective of what name you choose. And splitting out the Overground spaghetti is long overdue.

Is it a priority? 6 million could have gone towards LU pay, perhaps avoiding the various strikes we have seen over recent months. Or how about putting the money towards tackling the increasing rate of crime on London’s transport network, specifically young males being robbed on Underground trains?

Do they?

And even if they do, what's wrong with that?

It’s political, transport and politics don’t go well together - indeed there’s a history of political interference doing immense damage to the provision of transport. The PPP fiasco on London Underground is an example.

 

[thomalex]

This is beyond parody.

The company that did the rebranding (I’m surprised it’s not Perfect Curve from W1A)

Transport for London | DNCO

DNCO is a 100% employee-owned business and a dedicated team of experts specialising in culture and place. We work across six disciplines: strategy, branding, digital, editorial, spatial and wayfinding.

dnco.com

Co-creation workshops with London’s wordsmiths

These conversations revealed stories to celebrate, and more importantly, formed a vital framework that helps answer: what does a good name look like? In a series of workshops with London’s writers and creatives, we explored themes of decolonisation, queer histories, intersectionality and young London’s perspectives. The message was clear: Londoners wanted narratives that are specific to movements and moments, and reflective of everyday people. In this historic moment, this is a chance to celebrate and capture what London is proud of.

 

[A0]

How is naming it after a national team divisive?

So why pick the women's football team ? Why not name it after the British Lion's rugby team or the England Cricket team - that's why it's being castigated as cheap virtue signalling.

 

[A0]

Yet I take it you have no problem with the Jubilee line, the Metropolitan line, the District line etc etc.

Though two of those relate to the historic companies which built the lines.

Indeed not naming the Richmond - Stratford line the North London Line is pretty daft, that dates bsck to the North London Railway and in its various guises has been known as the North London Line for about half a century.

 

[A0]

But Jubilee line or Victoria line doesn't tell you wear it is going either.
You look for the line name and the destination, so Lioness line to Watford Junction.

Erm, actually one of those does......

 

[reddragon]

For fear of upsetting those folk liking the 'Liberty Line' name As its a very localised route, but known obviously to people from further afield, would the naming it the 'Emerson' line cleared up any doubt as to its location, and in times of disruption allowing passengers to make alternative plans.

There is no Emerson Park though, its Hornchurch!

 

[bramling]

But the comment was true. People are going to take this thread to 50 or 100+ pages, and eventually everyone will just accept the names and it will slow to a trickle.

It was a factual statement, whereas you were suggesting someone stop contributing to a thread on a forum. Perhaps you don't fully appreciate how discussions work?

It's little different to how people got so upset about the seats on a class 700 (and before that, 387s etc) and now they're virtually never mentioned at all.

It’s all very well saying people don’t mention these things, which may very well be true, however that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t bother people. In the case of the class 700 it just contributes to the feeling many people already have in their minds about rail travel - dirty and uncomfortable, in essence a distress purchase. So whilst people may not mention these things, the end result is actually worse as it just breeds contempt and cynicism towards the institutions of this country. There’s enough reasons for that already given the way recent governments have performed, we really don’t need a silly mayoral soundbite to debase London's overground rail network in a similar way.

I remember a training course at my work in relation to dealing with situations. Namely that if one treats people as adults they tend to respond in the same way. Our politicians would do well to remember this, though that would actually require some of them to actually *care* about what they’re actually supposed to be in power to achieve, a trait which seems to be pretty much absent from politics nowadays.