Honest mistake

[Xia]

I am new in this country, not familiar with train rules. However l had used some services with no problems, no matter how confusing things could be. And when the following story happened l am in quite a shock.
I took a train from Ryder Brow to Manchester Picadilly at 8:57. On arrival the gate didn’t open and l asked for help fron Transpennine person. He was quite angry, checked the ticket and said it’s for 9:57. And then he started screaming why l came early. I was a bit confused what was going on, apparently l clicked on wrong time when buying this ticket in the app on the run. And the price is the same the whole day (1.90£). Then he came to another person telling him there are 2 issues, that l used wrong time and wrong train. I had to correct that It was Northern, that is the only train stopping at that station. He was like whatever and asked to write my details. I wasn’t given any explanations on what’s going on and why there’s such a problem. It was a honest mistake, it’s not hard to do when the prices are the same. I don’t see any profit from that for me or the loss for a company. I purchased that ticket 17 minutes before boarding the train.

Then l got a letter from Transpennine to explain what happened which l did. Then l got another one, where they offered me to settle for 3.50 fare ( how come if it’s always 1.90) and 50£. I don’t think they even took an effort to read my explanation and just gave me typical response.

Another problem is that l was away and got this letter late and didn’t have much time. I tried to pay online but it didn’t find my details. Same Happened when l tried to appeal at some service, it says no details found. I notified Transpennine about this but got no answer so far. And those 21 days passed.
What do l do now? This situation seems so ridiculous to me and unfair.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Xia. Welcome to the forum. The £1.90 fare from Ryder Brow to Manchester Piccadilly looks to be that for an Advance ticket. They are only normally ever valid for just the one train they are booked on. If you travelled on a differently timed train, you didn't have a valid ticket. The correct fare for an Anytime Day Single (valid on any train) is £3.50. The cheaper £1.90 fare is a trade off between the fare saving and the lack of journey time flexibility.

I'd chalk this one up to experience and settle up the amount being asked of you. Not sure though, why you seemingly can't now pay the amount due (= £53.50?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the OP, are you going to the correct place as specified on it to pay and entering the details correctly? If so you probably want to phone them to find out why it hasn't been entered correctly. Emails often don't get replied to.

Unusual to see a settlement (rather than Penalty Fare) at £50 so you definitely want to take advantage of this, and ensure it is resolved ASAP because otherwise you could end up prosecuted.

 

[Xia]

Thank you!
I used reference number given in letter, but it had a bit different letters l guess when you pay that fine. Maybe that’s the reason?

 

[fandroid]

I appreciate your concern that someone should get angry at the apparent loss of £1.60 to the railway.

However those £1.90 tickets are strictly for one train only, the one written on the ticket. So you didn't have a valid ticket and committed a byelaw offence, for which you could actually be prosecuted in a court.

Be sure to get in contact with the rail company, as they very much will take it court if they think you aren't cooperating

 

[Xia]

To the OP, are you going to the correct place as specified on it to pay and entering the details correctly? If so you probably want to phone them to find out why it hasn't been entered correctly. Emails often don't get replied to.

Unusual to see a settlement (rather than Penalty Fare) at £50 so you definitely want to take advantage of this, and ensure it is resolved ASAP because otherwise you could end up prosecuted.

Thank you!
I will try to phone them.

Can someone help me with explaining other ways to pay? Some checks or something? I don’t know anything about it.

 

[WesternLancer]

@Xia. Welcome to the forum. The £1.90 fare from Ryder Brow to Manchester Piccadilly looks to be that for an Advance ticket. They are only normally ever valid for just the one train they are booked on. If you travelled on a differently timed train, you didn't have a valid ticket. The correct fare for an Anytime Day Single (valid on any train) is £3.50. The cheaper £1.90 fare is a trade off between the fare saving and the lack of journey time flexibility.

I'd chalk this one up to experience and settle up the amount being asked of you. Not sure though, why you seemingly can't now pay the amount due (= £53.50?)

This will be the reason

I see that an Off Peak Day rtn is £4.00 and an Anytime Return is £4.80 - to the OP : by buying tickets that are saving you a few pence you are giving up the ability to travel on any train for a negligible saving - you would be better buying an Anytime ticket and these problems would be avoided

If you are paying £1.90 each way for an 'Advance Single' (so return journey costing you £3.80) you are only saving 20p off the off peak fare - that you can use on any train off peak, or saving £1 off the ability to use any train, each way, any time of day.

It is not worth sacrificing ticket flexibility for such a small saving of money because this is what has led to you being stopped for not having a valid ticket.

Ways to pay the sum now demanded

I suspect the online payment window has closed because you did not pay quickly enough. As suggested you need to phone them urgently to ask if they can re-open the payment process to let you pay this sum, and explain you have been away and missed the 21 day time deadline. If you do not do this the risk is that the sum requested will go up or there is a risk that they will just refer the case for court prosecution so you need to avoid that as it will be much more costly for you.

I doubt there are other ways to pay them now without speaking to them / asking them. I hope you can get through to speak to someone by phone to arrange payment.

Keep heading back here for advice as you need it.

 

[Xia]

This will be the reason

I see that an Off Peak Day rtn is £4.00 and an Anytime Return is £4.80 - to the OP : by buying tickets that are saving you a few pence you are giving up the ability to travel on any train for a negligible saving - you would be better buying an Anytime ticket and these problems would be avoided

If you are paying £1.90 each way for an 'Advance Single' (so return journey costing you £3.80) you are only saving 20p off the off peak fare - that you can use on any train off peak, or saving £1 off the ability to use any train, each way, any time of day.

Thank you!
But that is the thing l didn’t understand. The price for 8:57 and 9:57 is the same. I haven’t saved anything by buying the wrong ticket. And it wasn’t my intention to save.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But that is the thing l didn’t understand. The price for 8:57 and 9:57 is the same. I haven’t saved anything by buying the wrong ticket.

£1.90 advance on the 0857 train or £1.90 advance on the 0957 train. But no flexibility on train times, once booked.

And it wasn’t my intention to save.

That's as may be, but nevertheless, you seem to have gone for the cheapest available single ticket, which has the restrictions. Did you book with the likes of Trainline?

 

[Xia]

£1.90 advance on the 0857 train or £1.90 advance on the 0957 train. But no flexibility on train times, once booked.

That's as may be, but nevertheless, you seem to have gone for the cheapest available single ticket, which has the restrictions. Did you book with the likes of Trainline?

Yes trainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you!
But that is the thing l didn’t understand. The price for 8:57 and 9:57 is the same. I haven’t saved anything by buying the wrong ticket. And it wasn’t my intention to save.

A £50 settlement is unusual (they're normally £100) and is the same as a Penalty Fare which is charged in case of a mistake with no deliberate wrongdoing implied. There isn't a mechanism for issuing a Penalty Fare retrospectively, but this does seem to indicate that they do think it's something that would normally be in scope of one.

My personal view is that these Advances are more trouble than they are worth and should not be sold, but that's by the by, we are where we are.

I'd suggest tapping "open return" on Trainline, this will hide these and give you the flexible options. But be aware that the Off Peak isn't valid at certain times in the evening on that journey. If you find this confusing the extra 80 pence for the Anytime (which is valid at it says - any time that day up to the last train even if it is slightly after midnight) may be worth paying.

 

[L401CJF]

Thank you!
But that is the thing l didn’t understand. The price for 8:57 and 9:57 is the same. I haven’t saved anything by buying the wrong ticket. And it wasn’t my intention to save.

As mentioned above, these "cheapest" Advance tickets are for the booked train at the booked time only, ie no flexibility, hence why they are so cheap. Others are suggesting to buy the more flexible Off Peak/Anytime tickets which are not restricted to a single train (hence the slightly more expensive price).

However, if you wish to buy the cheaper Advance tickets (in this case £1.90), only buy them when you are absolutely certain which train at which time you are going to travel on.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Xia. What was the actual date of travel when you got stopped? I'm struggling to find any 0857 departure from Ryder Brow to Manchester Piccadilly any time recently?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you!
But that is the thing l didn’t understand. The price for 8:57 and 9:57 is the same. I haven’t saved anything by buying the wrong ticket. And it wasn’t my intention to save.

It does not matter that it is the same price - the restriction on the ticket say that once you have paid for that type of ticket (called an Advance Ticket) you can ONLY travel on the train specified on the ticket at the time specified. Any breach of that renders the ticket as having no value and you can consider it as if you had no ticket at all (more or less - I am not going to go into great detail because it just makes things even more complicated)

This is because these tickets are quota controlled 'dynamic priced' tickets which whilst they might have been the same price for each time when you bought them, 5 minutes later the price might have changed (like happens with airline tickets)

But in the UK the railway has tickets which never change in price irrespective of how many people buy them - these are called 'off peak' or 'anytime' - this is what I am suggesting you buy in future to avoid this problem.

The fact is you used a ticket at the wrong time and sadly you now owe them this money that they are now asking for to avoid a stronger penalty. If you do not pay they can take it to court and prosecute you and they will win. You need to avoid this because it will create a criminal record. I know this seems unfair and stupid, but I would expect that you need to avoid that risk.

I agree this is all very frustrating and you have my sympathy.

 

[Xia]

And as far as l understood it doesn’t matter that l used Northern but getting letters from Transpennine

 

[Haywain]

And as far as l understood it doesn’t matter that l used Northern but getting letters from Transpennine

Train companies can and do work together in tackling fare avoidance and evasion. It's worth knowing that Northern would probably have been looking for a larger amount as they tend to look for the fare plus £100.

 

[WesternLancer]

And as far as l understood it doesn’t matter that l used Northern but getting letters from Transpennine

They can do enforcement for each other so yes, this does not matter. So it does not matter. Any staff on the barrier who check tickets can report things for investigation. Northern usually charge £100 for these mistakes so it may be that Transpenine are offering you a lower penalty.

But please note:

If you think there is something wrong with what you are being asked to pay you can either

a) post copies of all the letters / papers you have been sent here for people to check (blank out your personal details) - there are experts here who would double check it
or
b) do not pay / refuse to pay, and then it will go to court, and you can make your argument to the court, and let the court magistrates decide. But I think you will lose and this will cost you a lot more if you choose this option. I strongly recommend you do not do this if at all possible.

It seems to me that it is clear what you did wrong, even if you did not realise this yourself at the time, and even if it does not seem fair.

This is why the best advice is to find out how you can pay this sum being asked for as quickly as possible to avoid things getting worse and you having to pay more money as well as risk getting a criminal record from the court.

 

[Xia]

So calling to them didn’t work at all. There is no was to get through. However l finally got a response from them and the link to pay which seems to be working.
But would it be right to pay now since 21 day period passed?

This morning l sent them another email with a screenshot of payment not going through and explaining that l missed my payment because of receiving letter late. And got a responce for first time. Should l see it as they reissued the date?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So calling to them didn’t work at all. There is no was to get through. However l finally got a response from them and the link to pay which seems to be working.
But would it be right to pay now since 21 day period passed?

This morning l sent them another email with a screenshot of payment not going through and explaining that l missed my payment because of receiving letter late. And got a responce for first time. Should l see it as they reissued the date?

If you can pay, absolutely pay, yes. Immediately.

 

[WesternLancer]

So calling to them didn’t work at all. There is no was to get through. However l finally got a response from them and the link to pay which seems to be working.
But would it be right to pay now since 21 day period passed?

This morning l sent them another email with a screenshot of payment not going through and explaining that l missed my payment because of receiving letter late. And got a responce for first time. Should l see it as they reissued the date?

I assume the e-mail reply you have got looks legitimate as in from the train company correctly and not a fake website or scam.

If you are confident the payment page is correct I think you should be OK to pay all being well - you should keep a proof of payment or any receipt issued and / or screen grab showing your payment. You should keep this long term (at least 2 years)

If you can pay despite it being over 21 days I would think this is probably OK.