Grantshouse - Penmanshiel Tunnel avoidance

[38Cto15E]

I remember travelling through the tunnel on 24th February 1979 on an excursion train, I feel there was a speed restriction on then because I was window hanging. RIP.

 

[Pigeon]

It's a similar comparison to the North Staffs line at Harecastle Tunnels, south of Kidsgrove. There were three tunnels, including the most substantial being a mile long. Come electrification in the 1960s and they were abandoned for a diversion just to the west, where a fairly obvious route through an adjacent, closely parallel valley was available. Why ever not go that way to start with.

In that case the new alignment has a 1 in 80 gradient, which the tunnels didn't, and I think that's quite a bit steeper than anything else on the original route. The new alignment gains 20-25m in altitude going up that valley, and then loses it all again quite quickly coming down into Kidsgrove. You can see the difference in levels between the old and new alignments quite clearly at the northern end.

Regarding Penmanshiel, in a 2009 thread on LNER.info someone says there is a technical geological study at http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/page4872.html. Unfortunately that page isn't there any more, neither Google nor the site's own search function find any instances of the word "Penmanshiel" on geolsoc.org.uk at all, and whatever sod runs the site has blocked archive.org from recording it so there is nothing to be found there either. Nor does the LNER thread mention the actual title of the article to search for it directly, nor give any other clue. Is there by any chance anyone here who might still know how to find it?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Regarding Penmanshiel, in a 2009 thread on LNER.info someone says there is a technical geological study at http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/page4872.html. Unfortunately that page isn't there any more, neither Google nor the site's own search function find any instances of the word "Penmanshiel" on geolsoc.org.uk at all, and whatever sod runs the site has blocked archive.org from recording it so there is nothing to be found there either. Nor does the LNER thread mention the actual title of the article to search for it directly, nor give any other clue. Is there by any chance anyone here who might still know how to find it?

That might be referring to the 2008 study carried out for a proposed wind farm...?

This section sets out the methodology and findings of the assessment of the effects on hydrology and hydrogeology of the construction, operation and decommissioning of the proposed Penmanshiel Wind Farm. ‘Hydrology’ relates to surface water processes and features, whereas ‘hydrogeology’ refers to groundwater. A summary of the underlying geology is provided for context for the hydrology and hydrogeology. The existing state of the site is assumed to represent the baseline environment.

http://www.penmanshiel-windfarm.co.uk/media/18861/Volume%202-%20Chapter%2011%20Geology%20Hydrology%20and%20Hydrogeology.pdf

 

[DerekC]

Slightly OT but anyone interested in the early history of geology should read "The Map That Changed the World" by Simon Winchester (Viking, 2001 - ISBN 0-670-88407-3). It's the story of William Smith - a canal and mine surveyor who gained a lot of practical knowledge about rocks and their characteristics and noticed that the same rock types appeared in many places across the country - and that the sequence of rocks as you went down mineshafts in different places was always the same. He produced the very first geological map - but of course wasn't allowed to join the Geological Society of London because he wasn't a gentleman. Two of the "gentlemen" then stole his idea, published their own maps and made money out of them! But please read the book.

 

[DunsBus]

Slightly OT, but the memorial to the two workmen who perished when the tunnel collapsed is located on the hillside right above the spot where it happened and - fittingly - made from rock which had fallen that fateful morning in March 1979.

I think that I'm right in saying the tunnel was already showing signs of structural failure when the collapse happened. Drivers were regularly reporting cab windows being broken by rock falling from the tunnel roof and, even if the enlargement work hadn't been carried out, it would eventually have collapsed. I suppose the only consolation is that it happened when it did, in the wee small hours of the morning.

Worth noting too that BR's original intention was to have the tunnel cleared following the collapse, but this was quickly ruled out once a check found it to be too dangerous to do so.

 

[norbitonflyer]

To be honest, its probably some of the more difficult stuff to tunnel through in the UK in terms of building a stable tunnel. Its about as far away from London Clay as you can get in terms of suitability!

As was tragically proved when the enlargement works were attempted.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

The A1 was also repositioned to make room for the diversion.

This must be one of the few places where a railway has taken over the former alignment of a road, rather than vice versa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

Diversion was via Carlisle (with a few continuing to Euston) or a bus from Berwick to (?) Dunbar.

I recall travelling on non-stop Edinburgh to Euston service during that period. At least, my recollection was that it was non-stop, but Edinburgh - Carstairs would not be electrified for another ten years, so I must be mistaken

 

[deltic08]

I remember travelling through the tunnel on 24th February 1979 on an excursion train, I feel there was a speed restriction on then because I was window hanging. RIP.

The original line through the tunnel was 60 mph in Deltic days, the new alignment was 60 mph but has been upped to 70 mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

I recall travelling on non-stop Edinburgh to Euston service during that period. At least, my recollection was that it was non-stop, but Edinburgh - Carstairs would not be electrified for another ten years, so I must be mistaken

I travelled from Carlisle (ex Euston) to Aberdeen in daytime which was unheard of at that time. I think we went straight on at Carstairs to Mossend but can't recall passing through Perth. Does anybody know?
There was an overnight train from Bristol I think that divided at Stirling with one portion to Aberdeen and the other to Inverness. I wanted Inverness but woke up in Aberdeen. I obviously got in the wrong portion at Carlisle. It was a case of finding a seat in a very busy train even in February.

 

[themiller]

As was tragically proved when the enlargement works were attempted.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==


This must be one of the few places where a railway has taken over the former alignment of a road, rather than vice versa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==


I recall travelling on non-stop Edinburgh to Euston service during that period. At least, my recollection was that it was non-stop, but Edinburgh - Carstairs would not be electrified for another ten years, so I must be mistaken

Going via Carstairs would have involved a reversal in the station with a new loco coming onto the rear and taking the train south leaving the other loco behind in Carstairs platform. The ECML trains may not have been able to be covered by the number of electric locos available and so retained diesel haulage.

 

[ian1944]

The original question comes up here periodically, maybe near the date of collapse (17/3). My recollection is that on the last occasion landowner refusal was offered as the most likely reason, but who knows?

Re. the limit in the tunnel, in 1965 I came from London to Edinburgh on a business trip (the day after the Ferrybridge tower collapse, the truncated profile was evident to the west) and the noise when passing through was terrific, it certainly sounded more than 60 mph.

 

[The exile]

I recall travelling on non-stop Edinburgh to Euston service during that period. At least, my recollection was that it was non-stop, but Edinburgh - Carstairs would not be electrified for another ten years, so I must be mistaken

I also did 1 return Edinburgh - London journey - southbound on 27/03/79, when my notes suggest we were diesel-hauled to Carlisle for 81 006 forward (09.53 ex Edinburgh, scheduled for about 5 1/2 hours to Euston). My memory is of "Deltic over Beattock" - but that is probably wishful thinking on the part of an 11-year-old - I would love to know what was on the front. The return on 05/04 seems to have changed locos (from 86 008) at Carstairs (again - how much I would like to know what took over!), but I'm not over confident in the accuracy of my scribblings

 

[deltic08]

The original question comes up here periodically, maybe near the date of collapse (17/3). My recollection is that on the last occasion landowner refusal was offered as the most likely reason, but who knows?

Re. the limit in the tunnel, in 1965 I came from London to Edinburgh on a business trip (the day after the Ferrybridge tower collapse, the truncated profile was evident to the west) and the noise when passing through was terrific, it certainly sounded more than 60 mph.

I have a photo somewhere of an A4 passing the cut out 60 mph sign at the south end. Would be about 1962/3.