LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Haywain]

Making all Fixed Train ("advance") tickets amendable for a fee + price difference , within the availability of seats on the new train would help immensely.

Normal Advance tickets are amendable in that way.

 

[takno]

I have long suspected this ‘only 2 left’ business is not really true in any case. Weirdly I have no such concerns when looking at nationalised booking engines in Europe. Funny how there is a real trust deficit building up now between passenger and UK rail company.

Companies aren't allowed to just make up the urgency prompts, and they can be fined quite a lot for doing it, but as with everything else there is essentially no enforcement, so a huge proportion of them are either a complete work of fiction, or actually presage the last opportunity to a higher amount before the lower desperation fees kick in.

Trains and planes do largely seem to be an exception to this though. You get the occasional price drop if the advance pricing turns out to have been wildly wide of the mark, but for the most part there's a quota and when it sells out the advance fair moves up to the next tier.

The only thing that makes it a bit wonky is that train ticket retailers offer a huge 2 hour window for you to complete the transaction, so you'll sometimes get somebody go to buy 6 tickets, exhausting the quota, and then change their minds, so the price or "last 2" offer goes back down. I've quite often managed to temporarily lock myself out of a price band for tickets this way when the browser has died partway through or the site has gone down.

 

[jon0844]

While I'm sure there are rules, places like Argos will tell you about half the population of Africa are looking at every product you look at - even if it's 3am. And about 200 just sold in the last five minutes...

Makes me assume nobody enforces the rules (probably because you can't prove that the messages are untrue).

I look for some random things at times and it's amazing they're ever in stock given how small the store room is in my Sainsbury's in-store Argos!

I pray the railway doesn't start treating tickets like products and scare people into rushing their purchase or paying too much.

 

[Starmill]

But that can't be the case for the anytimes, can it?

No. It's an attempt to create false scarcity using the inaccurate "reservation compulsory" category. Same as claiming Standard is "sold out", when actually you'd be fine to board, and have a decent chance of a seat, but makes people think they've got no choice but to pay more for First if they wish to travel on that service.

 

[jon0844]

The flexible tickets surely mean that there's a good chance of seats being available on a train when someone decides to get an earlier or later one.. so if nobody wants to pay almost £200 for the anytime ticket, the train ends up running with empty seats and empty aisles?

Then another train has more people than seats because loads decided to wait for a later train, and people end up standing?

 

[AdamWW]

No. It's an attempt to create false scarcity using the inaccurate "reservation compulsory" category. Same as claiming Standard is "sold out", when actually you'd be fine to board, and have a decent chance of a seat, but makes people think they've got no choice but to pay more for First if they wish to travel on that service.

I think we're at cross purposes.

Yes of course the trains aren't really reservation compulsory so they can't actually sell out for anytime ticket holders. But I was responding to the suggestion that "only 2 left" didn't mean only 2 seats left on the train, but only 2 at that price. This could well be true for advances, but for anytimes it must surely mean that they are only willing to sell two more anytime tickets specifically for that service. They can't go up to a higher price.

In which case it seems surprising to me that for a train that is so close to being "sold out" they are still offering advances.

 

[jon0844]

It is all very misleading.

The problem is this trial is political. It's not an experiment to actually see if it works or not, but a way to make this the new standard for all TOCs (at least long distance ones, but I can see how it might work for shorter services too). I believe the results will be skewed to show it as a success, assuming most people don't complain.

Unlike ticket offices, most people buy advance tickets so they'll not even appreciate the impact until perhaps one day they need to travel as a distress purchase and get stung £200 in the middle of the day or a weekend. By then, it will be the norm and they can't moan.

 

[Fermiboson]

I think we're at cross purposes.

Yes of course the trains aren't really reservation compulsory so they can't actually sell out for anytime ticket holders. But I was responding to the suggestion that "only 2 left" didn't mean only 2 seats left on the train, but only 2 at that price. This could well be true for advances, but for anytimes it must surely mean that they are only willing to sell two more anytime tickets specifically for that service. They can't go up to a higher price.

In which case it seems surprising to me that for a train that is so close to being "sold out" they are still offering advances.

Well, they cannot be “only willing to sell” two Anytimes, or off-peaks for that matter. By definition, they have to sell as many as is asked for.

 

[johncrossley]

and get stung £200 in the middle of the day or a weekend.

It is no more "wrong" to be stung £200 at the start of the day than in the middle of the day. It is wrong at all times, including the so-called "peak hours". Decades of off-peak fare restrictions have conditioned us to think that silly fares in peak time are acceptable.

 

[AdamWW]

Well, they cannot be “only willing to sell” two Anytimes, or off-peaks for that matter. By definition, they have to sell as many as is asked for.

So far as on line sales go I don't think they do have to sell as many as someone wants.

By defining the trains as reservation compulsory then a train can "sell out" and they won't sell any more tickets for it.

You could still turn up to a ticket office or use a non itinerary based machine to purchase an anytime for that day and then use it on that train though.

 

[Watershed]

Well, they cannot be “only willing to sell” two Anytimes, or off-peaks for that matter. By definition, they have to sell as many as is asked for.

Well, they don't. They have marked their trains as reservations compulsory in the timetable data and are telling booking sites that there are 2 seats left. Presumably once those 2 seats are sold, they will return an availability of nil.

 

[AdamWW]

It is all very misleading.

The problem is this trial is political. It's not an experiment to actually see if it works or not, but a way to make this the new standard for all TOCs (at least long distance ones, but I can see how it might work for shorter services too). I believe the results will be skewed to show it as a success, assuming most people don't complain.

Unlike ticket offices, most people buy advance tickets so they'll not even appreciate the impact until perhaps one day they need to travel as a distress purchase and get stung £200 in the middle of the day or a weekend. By then, it will be the norm and they can't moan.

I'd be interested to see the figures.

Is it really true that a far greater percentage of people use ticket offices than travel on off peak tickets?

 

[johncrossley]

Has the LNER boss been told in interviews that most people can't afford the Anytime fare?

 

[Fuzzytop]

I note that a number of Freedom of Information requests were made on WhatDoTheyKnow for data relating to this trial. LNER has the obligation to respond in 20 working days, which is next week for most of the requests - but so far there is nothing.

Responses usually come from one lady (who seems usually very helpful) but I am surprised that LNER has seemingly left her to answer all these queries. Unless, of course, LNER thinks that it is immune to its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

LNER are going to make a fortune out of this.

More accurately, it'll be H.M. Treasury making the fortune won't it?

They'll have leaned on the DfT to lean on LNER to carry out this "trial".

 

[Haywain]

Responses usually come from one lady (who seems usually very helpful) but I am surprised that LNER has seemingly left her to answer all these queries.

That's because she is employed to deal with such matters! She obtains the information she needs from other people in the business who have their own day jobs to get on with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

Unless, of course, LNER thinks that it is immune to its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act?

That is clearly not the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

Well, they don't. They have marked their trains as reservations compulsory in the timetable data and are telling booking sites that there are 2 seats left. Presumably once those 2 seats are sold, they will return an availability of nil.

Having just looked at tickets for that train, the only tickets available are Anytime Singles and they do not come with a seat reservation ("No reservable seats available"), so it would appear that the availability of 2 was most likely correct, although somewhat misleading in being applied in that way to the Anytime tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

Ignore me

As usual?

 

[AdamWW]

Having just looked at tickets for that train, the only tickets available are Anytime Singles and they do not come with a seat reservation ("No reservable seats available"), so it would appear that the availability of 2 was most likely correct, although somewhat misleading in being applied in that way to the Anytime tickets.

So they are no longer marking these trains as reservation compulsory?

It is all very misleading.

The problem is this trial is political. It's not an experiment to actually see if it works or not,

Has anyone from LNER actually claimed that it is?

The trail could just be to work out how best to run such a scheme.

 

[jon0844]

LNER says only 11% of people use flexible tickets. That's a LOT of people.

I can't believe anyone can accept a trial that penalises over 1 in 10 passengers, with little benefits for everyone else. You pay more for the semi flexible ticket, and the least flexible seem to be less available - so people are pushed towards the anytime ticket.

It will rake in more money (as intended) but as a trial, it's awful. It doesn't make anything more simple either. Unless the 'simple' answer is not to travel, use another operator (before they copy), or drive/fly. The average Joe who books on Trainline isn't going to know how to get around this trial.

 

[Haywain]

So they are no longer marking these trains as reservation compulsory?

I have no idea.

 

[AdamWW]

LNER says only 11% of people use flexible tickets. That's a LOT of people.

I thought that was just for the routes that the new tickets apply to.

Though I think it was for off peaks, not all flexible tickets.

 

[jon0844]

I thought that was just for the routes that the new tickets apply to.

Though I think it was for off peaks, not all flexible tickets.

Yes, I think it was off-peak. That's still a fair chunk of people though. Those wanting to walk up in the peak aren't affected at all.

Basically, unless it was 0.1% or something I don't see how admitting it to be 11% is somehow justification!

 

[Haywain]

I can't believe anyone can accept a trial that penalises over 1 in 10 passengers, with little benefits for everyone else. <snip>

The average Joe who books on Trainline isn't going to know how to get around this trial.

That's the idea of a trial, isn't it, if it's what they intend to do at the end of it (if it is seen as succeeding)? There is no point in having a trial and at the same time telling people how to get round it!

 

[Fermiboson]

I note that a number of Freedom of Information requests were made on WhatDoTheyKnow for data relating to this trial. LNER has the obligation to respond in 20 working days, which is next week for most of the requests - but so far there is nothing.

Responses usually come from one lady (who seems usually very helpful) but I am surprised that LNER has seemingly left her to answer all these queries. Unless, of course, LNER thinks that it is immune to its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act?

I assume the strategy is to reply to everything at once at the 20 day limit with a whole bunch of section 43 refusals, so that they can further delay possible internal reviews and generally make it as annoying as possible.

 

[Wallsendmag]

From the looks of it we’re into counted places on those trains , that’s what the “you may have to stand” signifies. I believe it may be half turn in some areas so a busy time.

As usual?

After we did you a favour last night as well.

 

[Haywain]

After we did you a favour last night as well.

That was repayment due for last week when we gave you the opportunity to work out how to score goals!

I assume the strategy is to reply to everything at once at the 20 day limit with a whole bunch of section 43 refusals, so that they can further delay possible internal reviews and generally make it as annoying as possible.

Or perhaps the volume of similar requests means that it is taking longer to put the responses together.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't see how admitting it to be 11% is somehow justification!

It's just like how "only" 10% of passengers use booking offices. Completely neglecting that 10% of 1.5bn is 150m - a huge number. Also neglecting to mention that this included travel from stations where booking offices aren't provided/aren't open all hours and passengers are expected to buy from the guard.

 

[jon0844]

As has been said many times before, they didn't get away with it for ticket offices - but here most people won't appreciate what they're losing so won't say anything, or even believe the trial is going to mean cheaper fares and more flexibility.

Of course over time they will realise, when advance tickets get harder to get and/or more expensive - or the first time they have to travel in a hurry and discover they're being asked to pay nearly £200...

 

[Ianigsy]

LNER says only 11% of people use flexible tickets. That's a LOT of people.

I can't believe anyone can accept a trial that penalises over 1 in 10 passengers, with little benefits for everyone else. You pay more for the semi flexible ticket, and the least flexible seem to be less available - so people are pushed towards the anytime ticket.

It will rake in more money (as intended) but as a trial, it's awful. It doesn't make anything more simple either. Unless the 'simple' answer is not to travel, use another operator (before they copy), or drive/fly. The average Joe who books on Trainline isn't going to know how to get around this trial.

By definition, on a 9-car Azuma, it’s a carriage worth of people.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just checked and for the 1100 Kings Cross to Newcastle this Monday (12 Feb) I can see £89.50 for an Advance, and £109.50 for the Semi Flex (which would also allow you on the 1000 train). However looks like it's a busy train as there are only 2 tickets in Standard class left - maybe they were both in someone elses basket when you checked, but they then didn't follow through with the purchase and so the tickets have been returned to the pool.

View attachment 152043

Only the fully flexible ticket is available on the 1100 now. There are no standard tickets at all on the 0930/1000/1030 from King's Cross. Though one could buy a fully flexible for a different train and then get on anyway.

 

[Starmill]

I think we're at cross purposes.

Yes of course the trains aren't really reservation compulsory so they can't actually sell out for anytime ticket holders. But I was responding to the suggestion that "only 2 left" didn't mean only 2 seats left on the train, but only 2 at that price. This could well be true for advances, but for anytimes it must surely mean that they are only willing to sell two more anytime tickets specifically for that service. They can't go up to a higher price.

In which case it seems surprising to me that for a train that is so close to being "sold out" they are still offering advances.

I'm not sure what's surprising about that. They're expecting to sell nearly every seat on the train to someone with an Advance. That's the point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2024 ==

Only the fully flexible ticket is available on the 1100 now. There are no standard tickets at all on the 0930/1000/1030 from King's Cross. Though one could buy a fully flexible for a different train and then get on anyway.

If you're buying an Anytime ticket, there's little advantage in paying now at all, you can just show up at the station and only pay just before you board. A lot of people wouldn't know that, though.