LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Starmill]

Those first three are fully private sector operators. The last one is a publicly owned company. Interesting given the popular view that nationalising things turns them into cuddly benevolent organisations that exist only for the benefit of the people.

Not a view I've ever subscribed to when it comes to costs

Sadly no sensible discussion about cost is really possible on these threads because you're immediately accused of all sorts of nonsense about being anti-union.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

I don't really see what this has got to do with the point being discussed - which was whether single leg pricing is likely to result in a net loss of passengers.

As I've already explained, because if you make pricing more granular, you're more exposed to competition on price at the bottom of the market. More granular pricing is great if you're lean on costs and have commercial freedom to be selective about what and when to provide. LNER are very bloated on cost base (like nearly all British TOCs) and have very limited latitude to exit unremuneraritive markets (see the huge political opposition to their wish to withdraw services to Glasgow Central and Motherwell, despite these costing a lot of money to run and carrying barely anyone). LNER's 2% discount and endless targeted cashback deals are an attempt to get this back, but these don't seem to be working very well. They're far less targeted than offering a return that costs less than singles each way.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in keeping the public service obligation elements of the service, and I do actually oppose withdrawing the Glasgow Central services, but I also take the view appropriate subsidy from public funds should be provided, and it isn't being, and unit cost should come down long term even if that means some difficult trade-offs.

There's a very good reason why GWR and GC set their singles at 60 - 70% of their return prices, and why Avanti West Coast cut theirs to 70%ish of their return prices. The train service is rarely in a position to exploit being the most competitive on price, so some form of loyalty binding is more important.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

Rail doesn't, if you want to flog stuff you have to pay someone extra to do so.

Of course, not if you're Lumo you don't

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How “cuddly” an organisation is depends on its management and its ownership.

FWIW I don’t think all of this does come from the government. David Horne was the grand master of price gouging when LNER was VTEC. If there was a service standard he could trash he happily trashed it. If there was a price to be gouged, he gouged it.

Horne should have been shoved out along with Brian Souter. He had trashed everything that EastCoast had built up under Heidi Mottram (who as a water company CEO clearly has a strong business brain too).

But you can see why the current government would like a senior manager with a proven track record of slashing quality and ramping up prices.

The benefit of public ownership is that there is accountability at the ballot box for such behaviour- at least in theory. Not that I expect Labour to be much better.

I know we don't need more examples of money-grabbing, but today and yesterday there's been no availability for Advance tickets on the 1900 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh. As a result the price of this service has increased from £87 three weeks ago to £193.90 today, for those making a booking last night or this morning, as is the common thing to want to do. There's the overnight 123% price rise that certain people claimed wouldn't happen.

Of course, just to make it as complicated as possible, if you buy the 70 Min Advance for the 1830 you can use that on the 1900, saving £40. It's difficult to see how they could have messed all this up any worse.

 

[island]

I know we don't need more examples of money-grabbing, but today and yesterday there's been no availability for Advance tickets on the 1900 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh. As a result the price of this service has increased from £87 three weeks ago to £193.90 today, for those making a booking last night or this morning, as is the common thing to want to do.

Still £87 to Haymarket/Shawfair/etc., for now anyway

 

[Starmill]

Still £87 to Haymarket/Shawfair/etc., for now anyway

Of course. For those in the know!

 

[weeklycommuter]

There's not a lot of scope to grow LNER without more or longer trains to Edinburgh. The existing ones are very busy.

The LNER trains each have around 600 seats. 250 seats is only just over 40%. How busy are these trains at present on average? The main competition is people deciding not to travel. For business the main competition is zoom.

LNER are taking us for fools

Sunday 21st January 2023 “Our Simpler Fares pilot aims to make buying tickets even easier and give customers a better experience with just three ticket types.” That’s the pitch LNER’s marketing peo…

busandtrainuser.com

Do you know how many passengers travel on LNER’s ‘Flying Scotsman’ style non-stop (save for Newcastle) journey leaving Edinburgh at 05:40 (Newcastle at 07:04) and arriving Kings Cross at 09:40 (to create a headline grabbing end-to-end four hour journey time)?
Go on, have a guess. there are no Advance tickets allowed on this journey, nor off-peak tickets. It’s aimed at business folk. The only fares are full price £193.90 (from Edinburgh) or £192.80 (from Newcastle). How many passengers do you reckon are on board that train?
I’m told by a Company Insider on a recent morning there were just 30 passengers leaving Newcastle. The on board staff moved them all into first class in coach L. It’s a clear example of eye-watering, unaffordable fares pricing passengers off the railway.

Establishing a secure connection ...

Director DAVID HORNE tells JAMES ABBOTT 21st March 2019

LNER having an average load factor of 250 passengers across the day

Table 1223: Passenger journeys by operator | ORR Data Portal

Table 1223a: Passenger journeys by operator, annual data

LNER: April 2018 to March 2019 22.3 million April 2019 to March 2020 21.3 million April 2022 to March 2023 23.4 million

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LNER operates around 55,000 train services a year so 23.4 million is an average of around 425 passengers per service but many passengers only travel for part of the service so the average loading will be considerably less than 425 passengers.
With LNER removing these off peak fares will politicians on the Transport for the North board be happy for LNER to have a third path each hour from York to Newcastle at the expense of Tranpennine?

Establishing a secure connection ...

13th October 2023
A recast of services on the East Coast main line, which has been postponed several times already, is now targeted for December 2024.
Modern Railways understands Transport Secretary Mark Harper has given the go-ahead for the timetable change to take place at the end of next year. The planned change would take advantage of infrastructure investment through the £1.2 billion East Coast upgrade and the introduction of LNER’s Azuma fleet, increasing the number of LNER services out of King’s Cross each hour from five to six. However, it still requires approval from the Treasury and Transport for the North for it to proceed.
The key stumbling block at the Treasury will be funding for the additional services, although LNER and the three open access operators on the ECML have all seen strong passenger growth since the pandemic. For politicians on the Transport for the North board the concern is likely to be the balance of services north of York – an earlier proposal was for more LNER services to run but at the expense of TransPennine Express, as there is only capacity for six long-distance high-speed services between York and Newcastle at present. Local stakeholders favour trans-Pennine connectivity, but in the consultation on the previous timetable plan it was highlighted that far more passengers from stations on this stretch use LNER services than they do TPE’s.

 

[yorksrob]

With LNER removing these off peak fares will politicians on the Transport for the North board be happy for LNER to have a third path each hour from York to Newcastle at the expense of Tranpennine?

That's a very good point.

If LNER persist with this fiasco, they should be barred from having any further paths.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As an example of why this is a bad idea, because some people have to book at short notice.
On Thursday night, whilst bedding down on the sleeper to Scotland, I received a text message saying that Avanti had cancelled the train I on which we were booked to return to London yesterday (Friday) evening - the last train of the night from Glasgow. (I must say that Avanti's refund process is very slick - approved within 11 minutes of being requested)
But we still had to get back to London, and the only suitable train was on LNER. Fortunately our day ended at Leuchars, not Edinburgh, so off peak singles were available. (We were originally booked Dundee to London via Glasgow as when we made the booking LNER had a strike scheduled for yesterday - Leuchars has no trains to Glasgow, hence the origional booking from Dundee - such are the complexities of real life, and why not everyone can use advance tickets, even with a 70 minute "flex")

(Six hours is three times longer than any previous experience I've had from Lumo, and I'm not sure I'd want to repeat it. Certainly I will avoid the seats against the bulkhead (B83 and 84) which are closer together than most with no armrest - and as with most airline seats my legs have to encroach on the aisle although I am only 5'9". The edge of the flip down table also chafed my wrists when i tried to read a book. I don't recall such problems when I used Lumo back from Edinburgh last year)

 

[johncrossley]

Have there been any protests? People handing out leaflets outside King's Cross?

 

[island]

Have there been any protests? People handing out leaflets outside King's Cross?

No. It doesn’t register with most normal passengers, who will carry on getting advances like they always have, or maybe trade up to a 70-min flex if they’re not sure of their travel times.

 

[185]

Interesting given the popular view that nationalising things turns them into cuddly benevolent organisations that exist only for the benefit of the people.

I'm of the view that refusing to accept defeat & their grand 1995 nationalisation plan has failed costing the state £Xbn more, the DfT bigwigs like Conman Bailey and (tory) politicians will do anything they can to push firms they've had to nationalise like LNER into unpopularity with stunts like this.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If this rolls out, what will happen on services where the interval is more than 70 minutes. For example, Lincoln, Retford, Harrogate, Aberdeen etc do not have an hourly LNER service. Indeed, there appears to be a 2 hour gap in the LNER service at Berwick, (no service between 1112 and 1313) making the supposed extra flexibility of a flex ticket for the 1112 somewhat pointless.

 

[AdamWW]

If this rolls out, what will happen on services where the interval is more than 70 minutes. For example, Lincoln, Retford, Harrogate, Aberdeen etc do not have an hourly LNER service. Indeed, there appears to be a 2 hour gap in the LNER service at Berwick, (no service between 1112 and 1313) making the supposed extra flexibility of a flex ticket for the 1112 somewhat pointless.

Yes flexibility for somewhere like Harrogate would be more use if it wasn't fixed operator so you could change at Leeds if you missed the direct service.

But presumably that would be too confusing for the modern passenger who would prefer the simplicity of having to throw their ticket away if they miss the train.

Technically you wouldn't even be allowed to use it as far as Leeds then pay again for the leg to Harrogate.

 

[Fermiboson]

Have there been any protests? People handing out leaflets outside King's Cross?

Be the change, etc etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==

No. It doesn’t register with most normal passengers, who will carry on getting advances like they always have, or maybe trade up to a 70-min flex if they’re not sure of their travel times.

Recall it has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, but would the forum consider a fundraise from among forum members to put a big billboard outside KGX saying "If you're going to Newcastle get a ticket to Manors for 50% savings" or something similarly simple like that?

 

[Krokodil]

No. It doesn’t register with most normal passengers, who will carry on getting advances like they always have, or maybe trade up to a 70-min flex if they’re not sure of their travel times.

Most of whom will be blissfully unaware that they're being stung for more expensive tickets than they used to be. Boiled frogs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Be the change, etc etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==


Recall it has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, but would the forum consider a fundraise from among forum members to put a big billboard outside KGX saying "If you're going to Newcastle get a ticket to Manors for 50% savings" or something similarly simple like that?

The effect of that becoming too widely known would be either Manors/Haymarket being added to the trial or a break of journey restriction being added to the Super Off Peak Single (which Avanti did to stop less restricted Lancaster tickets being used to Preston). Though if it was the latter you could of course actually go to Manors/Haymarket, they are hardly out of the way.

 

[yorksrob]

The effect of that becoming too widely known would be either Manors/Haymarket being added to the trial or a break of journey restriction being added to the Super Off Peak Single (which Avanti did to stop less restricted Lancaster tickets being used to Preston). Though if it was the latter you could of course actually go to Manors/Haymarket, they are hardly out of the way.

Might attract the attention of the main stream media though.

 

[Starmill]

Most of whom will be blissfully unaware that they're being stung for more expensive tickets than they used to be. Boiled frogs.

The people who are aware end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater as well. It only takes one journey for someone to be charged £194 when they expected to pay around £87 for someone to be really bitter and resentful of the entire industry, not appreciating that the change was only for that one route on that one company. Who can blame them though? If you get stung like that even just once, you'll quite rightly be narked off about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==

The effect of that becoming too widely known would be either Manors/Haymarket being added to the trial or a break of journey restriction being added to the Super Off Peak Single (which Avanti did to stop less restricted Lancaster tickets being used to Preston). Though if it was the latter you could of course actually go to Manors/Haymarket, they are hardly out of the way.

If loads of people do it, they'll notice, and use a workaround, of which there are many hypothetically possible. They literally wrote in their brief they're keeping an eye on it because they don't want too many people to do it.

One thing I wish they would do is lower the London - Reston fare so it's the same as the new London - Dunbar fare. That's truly ridiculous.

 

[yorksrob]

The people who are aware end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater as well. It only takes one journey for someone to be charged £194 when they expected to pay around £87 for someone to be really bitter and resentful of the entire industry, not appreciating that the change was only for that one route on that one company. Who can blame them though? If you get stung like that even just once, you'll quite rightly be narked off about it.

Absolutely. And those people won't be thinking "bloody LNER". They'll be thinking "bloody railway".

It's an own goal for the whole industry.

 

[jon0844]

Absolutely. And those people won't be thinking "bloody LNER". They'll be thinking "bloody railway".

It's an own goal for the whole industry.

Yes, it's not a good thing when the railway is always considered to be way too expensive as it is.

This Government does seem quite happy to run down the railway and somehow keep finding ways to say 'We've used the money saved on HS2 to do X, Y and Z' as a way of suggesting that we don't need trains - or at least that they're not as important as other things.

As I've said before, it seems that there could be an anytime ticket, an off-peak ticket, advance tickets (perhaps renamed to make it clear they're tied to a specific train) and perhaps the advance ticket with a 'flex' add-on to give that +/- 70 minute flexibility - not an actual ticket in its own right.

Heck, you could even have just one any train ticket, based on an off-peak rate, with a supplement if you want to use it at certain times of the day. Make it clear when buying what those times are, and as more tickets are issued as e-tickets it is even easier to provide that information without loads more ticket coupons.

• Any train (off peak with optional excess for peak services, or whatever you want to define - whether by train or time, maybe even operator)
• Fixed train (advance)
• Fixed train with Flex (advance + add-on)

(I'd leave it up to marketeers to work out snazzier names).

It's also possible, even if it seems unlikely now, that one day the whole of the UK will be offering contactless payment for train travel in local areas - but given every station will have a reader, you could be tapping in and out for use on an Intercity train too. How then will that work? Will there only be a peak rate for all contactless payments? Will it default to the anytime rate?

 

[Starmill]

One thing I wish they would do is lower the London - Reston fare so it's the same as the new London - Dunbar fare. That's truly ridiculous.

I take it back. They did fix this one last week. Thank goodness someone listens!

 

[Fermiboson]

The effect of that becoming too widely known would be either Manors/Haymarket being added to the trial or a break of journey restriction being added to the Super Off Peak Single (which Avanti did to stop less restricted Lancaster tickets being used to Preston). Though if it was the latter you could of course actually go to Manors/Haymarket, they are hardly out of the way.

If they did in fact attempt to force people to use the trial fares via changing ticketing restrictions, I would imagine that makes for rather bombastic headlines. "Train company goes against own rules to force customers to pay double" &c.

If loads of people do it, they'll notice, and use a workaround, of which there are many hypothetically possible. They literally wrote in their brief they're keeping an eye on it because they don't want too many people to do it.

What are their options of response if too many people do it? They could add every station on the Newcastle Metro (Heworth/Northumberland Park/even Sunderland?) onto the trial, but that would quickly gain widespread local attention (and also, I imagine, mess with the local fares between those stations), and still not prevent say splitting via Durham. Horne can waffle on about "distorting the market" all he wants, but at the end of the day it's legal, telling people how to do it is also legal, and there are many, many combinations possible for people to avoid a trial fare without the "trial" being spread over the entire network. If LNER are willing to play whack-a-mole to enforce the trial fare, then they might just as well announce they're skipping the trial phase altogether. If LNER try to take action against pople telling customers (even if physically on site at KGX) of these workarounds, that's a classic Streisand formula.

 

[Krokodil]

If LNER are willing to play whack-a-mole to enforce the trial fare, then they might just as well announce they're skipping the trial phase altogether

They'd also have to admit that the change isn't good for the customer (despite all of the waffle to the contrary). After all, if it was good for the customer the customer would have no reason to find workarounds.

 

[STINT47]

Looking at a London yo Newcastle journey for this coming Monday around 11 in the morning it only offers the anytime £192.80 fare.

If I wait till 14:00 I can get an advance for £89.50 or semi flex for £20 more. Both of which are more than I would have paid before my fares were changed. LNER are going to make a fortune out of this.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Looking at a London to Newcastle journey for this coming Monday around 11 in the morning it only offers the anytime £192.80 fare.

Just checked and for the 1100 Kings Cross to Newcastle this Monday (12 Feb) I can see £89.50 for an Advance, and £109.50 for the Semi Flex (which would also allow you on the 1000 train). However looks like it's a busy train as there are only 2 tickets in Standard class left - maybe they were both in someone elses basket when you checked, but they then didn't follow through with the purchase and so the tickets have been returned to the pool.

 

[embers25]

Just checked and for the 1100 Kings Cross to Newcastle this Monday (12 Feb) I can see £89.50 for an Advance, and £109.50 for the Semi Flex (which would also allow you on the 1000 train). However looks like it's a busy train as there are only 2 tickets in Standard class left - maybe they were both in someone elses basket when you checked, but they then didn't follow through with the purchase and so the tickets have been returned to the pool.

View attachment 152043

How are there only 2 fully flexible tickets left. It looks like LNER are selling the last two free seats on the train at all 3 price points so hardly dynamic pricing...very misleading.

 

[Hadders]

It’ll be 2 tickets at that price point. Once they’ve gone the price moves up to the next tier.

 

[modernrail]

It’ll be 2 tickets at that price point. Once they’ve gone the price moves up to the next tier.

One way to check might be to go to book and have a look at the seat planner and then see if there are more than 5 other seats available to move your seat to?

I have long suspected this ‘only 2 left’ business is not really true in any case. Weirdly I have no such concerns when looking at nationalised booking engines in Europe. Funny how there is a real trust deficit building up now between passenger and UK rail company.

 

[AdamWW]

It’ll be 2 tickets at that price point. Once they’ve gone the price moves up to the next tier.

But that can't be the case for the anytimes, can it?

So either there really are only 2 seats left available, or they're prepared to have anytimes sell out while still selling advances. Which would be rather odd.

On the other hand, isn't it a good thing if they are still selling the cheap tickets on a train that's nearly "full"?

 

[fandroid]

I wish they'd focus on actual ticket simplification and giving the customer some choice and flexibility. Making all Fixed Train ("advance") tickets amendable for a fee + price difference , within the availability of seats on the new train would help immensely.

 

[AdamWW]

Making all Fixed Train ("advance") tickets amendable for a fee + price difference , within the availability of seats on the new train would help immensely.

Isn't that how they work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wish they'd focus on actual ticket simplification and giving the customer some choice and flexibility. Making all Fixed Train ("advance") tickets amendable for a fee + price difference , within the availability of seats on the new train would help immensely.

They are. The least flexible train tickets (bar special offers) are semi flex in airline terms.

What would be good would be dropping the admin fee.