Preferential treatment for rail staff

[cockneyviking]

I work for a FOC, I've been stopped before a station by a signaller, phone conversation was can u pick a driver up at the next station, I asked what he had worked in, another companies train. Said no as we r not insured to carry other companies train crew especially if something went wrong.

 

[Signal_Box]

Still a family in this area!
Even after 5 years retirement there are guards who offer a free trip and I was only a signaller
(I don't accept!!)

Unfortunately it’s not down here, especially on the intercity operator guards from a depot “in the smoke” spend more time looking at your ID and passes then MI5 !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2024 ==

That's a very cynical view and not entirely accurate, in my experience

Unfortunately it is in mine.

 

[357]

does it actually carry parcels

That depends. I don't know what my colleagues carry in their work bags!

 

[bengley]

I've had a look and that train is described as "parcels" on RTT, does it actually carry parcels or is it misclassification of what youve said is a staff train?

Realtime Trains | 3B02 0500 Pitsea to Shoeburyness | 23/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 3B02 0500 departure from Pitsea to Shoeburyness on 23/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

c2c don't carry parcels. In fact no companies really carry parcels these days. Having checked your RTT link, I can also confirm from experience that it does not stop, uncouple coaches, couple coaches, and depart again within 30 seconds at every station.

 

[800001]

He isn’t a London Underground driver.

Fully aware of that as several people have already replied, as have I to correct my self.

 

[bengley]

I work for a FOC, I've been stopped before a station by a signaller, phone conversation was can u pick a driver up at the next station, I asked what he had worked in, another companies train. Said no as we r not insured to carry other companies train crew especially if something went wrong.

Well then that's a bit rude

 

[357]

I work for a FOC, I've been stopped before a station by a signaller, phone conversation was can u pick a driver up at the next station, I asked what he had worked in, another companies train. Said no as we r not insured to carry other companies train crew especially if something went wrong.

Have you been given that as a specific instruction or do you just think that there is no insurance in place?

You better hope that you never need a pilotman or route conductor.

 

[peakNed]

I work for a FOC, I've been stopped before a station by a signaller, phone conversation was can u pick a driver up at the next station, I asked what he had worked in, another companies train. Said no as we r not insured to carry other companies train crew especially if something went wrong.

I’d happily pick them up if the signaller asked nicely.

Unless they worked for GBRF ofc…

 

[farleigh]

Have you been given that as a specific instruction or do you just think that there is no insurance in place?

You better hope that you never need a pilotman or route conductor.

Is this how the 'family' works?

 

[bluegoblin7]

(with the exception of London Underground gateline staff, a surprising number of whom seem to despise mainline railway staff for some reason)

Given there's no formal reciprocal arrangements in place between mainline and LU, this isn't hugely surprising. There's plenty of mainline staff who won't recognise an LU staff pass, and LUL are also very hot on gate line staff allowing other staff to travel at the moment. Can't blame individuals for not risking their job when the likelihood is the same courtesy wouldn't be reciprocated.

Indeed, certainly in my gate line days at a Z1 gateway station service by 9 TOCs (three of whom do have reciprocal arrangements with TfL) most TOC staff expected to be let through, rather than asked nicely, including those eligible for the reciprocal travel passes. Big difference in how things are approached.

 

[Efini92]

Have you been given that as a specific instruction or do you just think that there is no insurance in place?

You better hope that you never need a pilotman or route conductor.

They must only have third party fire and theft

 

[londonboi]

Sadly having a look earlier and it seems he is having another rant at the same TOC this time about a delayed service and also swearing in his tweet. Shocking to see someone who works in the industry rant like this on social media.

 

[GB]

I’d happily pick them up if the signaller asked nicely.

Unless they worked for GBRF ofc…

Nice

 

[Signal_Box]

Have you been given that as a specific instruction or do you just think that there is no insurance in place?

You better hope that you never need a pilotman or route conductor.

Both pilot and route conductor would be pre arranged to a degree though.

Worst case there is a serious accident, the fire sericxe are only looking for one person in the wreckage, the unauthorised person is thrown clear laying injured but not found as no one is looking for them.

Won’t happen ? I hope not, but it’s a good reason to not do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==

I’d happily pick them up if the signaller asked nicely.

Unless they worked for GBRF ofc…

We as signallers have no right to ask drivers to pick other staff unless it’s been authorised by the TOCs involved, it would be no different to this very situation putting the driving driver in a awkward situation.

Many years ago (15+) I fall for Walter Mitty type who had all the gear including home made ID, I allowed him into the cab after he produced his ID and a story.

I only found out about him as he escalated his behaviour to tried to front end with a driver, the driver got suspicious and called BTP.

Simply not worth your job to allow anyone who isn’t specifically authorised into the cab, or train if it’s in full passenger service.

 

[357]

Both pilot and route conductor would be pre arranged to a degree though.

Worst case there is a serious accident, the fire sericxe are only looking for one person in the wreckage, the unauthorised person is thrown clear laying injured but not found as no one is looking for them.

Won’t happen ? I hope not, but it’s a good reason to not do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==



We as signallers have no right to ask drivers to pick other staff unless it’s been authorised by the TOCs involved, it would be no different to this very situation putting the driving driver in a awkward situation.

Many years ago (15+) I fall for Walter Mitty type who had all the gear including home made ID, I allowed him into the cab after he produced his ID and a story.

I only found out about him as he escalated his behaviour to tried to front end with a driver, the driver got suspicious and called BTP.

Simply not worth your job to allow anyone who isn’t specifically authorised into the cab, or train if it’s in full passenger service.

But in the case I was talking about the signaller has asked for the driver to pick up another member of staff, so sounding like things have been organised properly to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==

Is this how the 'family' works?

I have no idea what you mean by this question.

Another driver has said they aren't insured for something - I've asked is it information that's passed on from existing staff to new staff (surprisingly common) or is it written anywhere, then questioned where pilots and route conductors stand with regard to insurance on this FOCs trains.

What is the "issue"?

 

[Signal_Box]

But in the case I was talking about the signaller has asked for the driver to pick up another member of staff, so sounding like things have been organised properly to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==


I have no idea what you mean by this question.

Another driver has said they aren't insured for something - I've asked is it information that's passed on from existing staff to new staff (surprisingly common) or is it written anywhere, then questioned where pilots and route conductors stand with regard to insurance on this FOCs trains.

What is the "issue"?

In that case yes it does sound pre arranged, but we’re discussing a ad hoc train Uber style lift.

 

[Val3ntine]

We as signallers have no right to ask drivers to pick other staff unless it’s been authorised by the TOCs involved, it would be no different to this very situation putting the driving driver in a awkward situation.

I see no reason why a signaller would ever ask unless it was authorised/requested by TOC control. For example how would the signaller even know of the driver in question at the platform. TOCS generally are not able to contact drivers on the move (without a guard to relay any message), so info is usually passed on to the signaller to do so.

 

[800001]

I see no reason why a signaller would ever ask unless it was authorised/requested by TOC control. For example how would the signaller even know of the driver in question at the platform. TOCS generally are not able to contact drivers on the move (without a guard to relay any message), so info is usually passed on to the signaller to do so.

TOCs can send a message via GSMR to the train, requesting the driver contact control when it is safe to do so, so a message can be relayed.

 

[Val3ntine]

TOCs can send a message via GSMR to the train, requesting the driver contact control when it is safe to do so, so a message can be relayed.

Yeah some TOCS operate this way but I believe that to be in the minority. Generally any instruction or request from signaller is the last point of call for a driver to accept, for example something relayed by control to a driver, they may double check with the signaller also for confirmation, vice versa wouldn’t be needed.

 

[Tomnick]

Maybe I'm being generous here, but I took the underlying message in the original Tweet as an expression of exasperation at the current state of the industry, as much as it came across as an unfair dig at an individual.

The comments here bear that out, I have to say. It's a sorry state of affairs if conveying a member of traincrew, regardless of employer, has become such a big deal.

My point regarding road learning was simply that if it's okay for them to be in the cab under those circumstances, then how is it *really* any different if they're in the saloon instead?

 

[LowLevel]

I work for a FOC, I've been stopped before a station by a signaller, phone conversation was can u pick a driver up at the next station, I asked what he had worked in, another companies train. Said no as we r not insured to carry other companies train crew especially if something went wrong.

How do you know what the company is/isn't insured for? I personally haven't a clue. There's all sorts of circumstances whereby other people's employees might find themselves on non passenger trains for various reasons.

I've heard "not insured" used by very many people over the years, and I'm not sure any of them have any idea of the detail of what their employer is specifically insured for or not.

"Not allowed to", "don't want to", "don't feel comfortable" sure, but "not insured" has always felt like an excuse to avoid saying one of the former.

I'm not allowed to carry unattended unconsigned luggage or parcels but I've still transported a lump of point machine and various other items around for Network Rail in an emergency.

 

[Tomnick]

Worst case there is a serious accident, the fire sericxe are only looking for one person in the wreckage, the unauthorised person is thrown clear laying injured but not found as no one is looking for them.

Our Control certainly don't keep track of exactly who's on a set of empties. Similarly, if he was genuinely a road learner, that wouldn't be something that'd ever normally be noted upstairs.

 

[357]

In that case yes it does sound pre arranged, but we’re discussing a ad hoc train Uber style lift.

Ah sorry we got our wires crossed. The original post to start the thread was indeed as hoc then another driver said he refused when the signaller asked on a separate occasion

 

[ScottGallagher]

Was there not a case of a young lad perhaps in full BR uniform posing as a driver blagging cab rides somewhere on Network Southeast in the 1990s? I'm minded to say it was the South Central area?

I actually got a cab ride on the tube as a kid in the early 90s, only for one stop though on the Piccadilly Line (Dad knew a senior electrical engineer on LU who came with us) , Victoria Line driver said no though!

 

[The exile]

If no-one else (passengers) suffer then it's not "preferential", by definition.

Not true. If someone is offered a free journey because they are staff but I have to pay, they have received preferential treatment. However, I am still paying the same fare as I would have done had that staff member not had the free journey - so I have not lost out by their being given preferential treatment. If they arrive after me but are allocated the last place ahead of me because they’re staff, then I am worse off because they got preferential treatment.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not true. If someone is offered a free journey because they are staff but I have to pay, they have received preferential treatment. However, I am still paying the same fare as I would have done had that staff member not had the free journey - so I have not lost out by their being given preferential treatment. If they arrive after me but are allocated the last place ahead of me because they’re staff, then I am worse off because they got preferential treatment.

Indeed, but my point was that if, for example, you don't have to pay, it's not preferential because both are treated equally. You said : "and b) providing that treatment doesn’t leave the general public in a worse position than they would otherwise have been." If the public are not in a worse position (in any way) than the staff, it's not preferential.

 

[The exile]

Indeed, but my point was that if, for example, you don't have to pay, it's not preferential because both are treated equally. You said : "and b) providing that treatment doesn’t leave the general public in a worse position than they would otherwise have been." If the public are not in a worse position (in any way) than the staff, it's not preferential.

We’ll have to agree to differ. As far as I’m concerned, if an off duty member of staff gets something free that I have to pay for, that’s preferential treatment (as are all perks of any job). Not saying there’s anything wrong with it, but we are not being treated equally (especially if the freebie is unofficial). As I also said, IMO this kind of preferential treatment is perfectly justified.

 

[Deepgreen]

Railway staff have always given eachother a lift on the railway since time immemorial. They always will.

I don't see the fuss.

Not if current events and debates continue, they won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==

We’ll have to agree to differ. As far as I’m concerned, if an off duty member of staff gets something free that I have to pay for, that’s preferential treatment (as are all perks of any job). Not saying there’s anything wrong with it, but we are not being treated equally (especially if the freebie is unofficial). As I also said, IMO this kind of preferential treatment is perfectly justified.

Agreed, but that's not what you said (my bold highlighted section). No matter.

 

[yorksrob]

Not if current events and debates continue, they won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2024 ==


Agreed, but that's not what you said (my bold highlighted section). No matter.

Most passengers have more pressing concerns about the railway.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Our Control certainly don't keep track of exactly who's on a set of empties. Similarly, if he was genuinely a road learner, that wouldn't be something that'd ever normally be noted upstairs.

Don't forget that if the driver was not post-Q, he could only convey a driver instructor in his cab and not someone Road learning under any circumstances. My TOC doesn't allow anyone in cabs without the required pass, or unless in conjunction with their duties. No picking up random crew at all (on ECS).