Reinstatement of the missing Glasgow - Birmingham - Euston

[Peter0124]

This quote is from the June 2024 Timetable Change thread:

I think that internally the thinking is that they'd value the return of that service from Glasgow Central to Preston strongly. As discussed elsewhere, however, there's little commercial need for any of the additional northbounds to make that extra set available at Polmadie of a morning. The 0936 doesn't have the time or capacity to be calling at Crewe really either, even if to set down only. As such, it's difficult to act on at the moment but fingers crossed and all that.

But would there be demand for an additional morning service to run to Edinburgh from somewhere on the WCML to work 9M52 08:52 EDB-EUS back south, arriving around 08:30, rather than using a Polmadie set like it currently does? I would have said start it at Manchester as it can use Longsight but that might clash with the morning TPE to Glasgow. Or an additional evening Euston-Edinburgh, maybe a 20:30 departure which runs via Trent Valley to Edinburgh (extending that Preston terminator), to stable at Waverley and work 9M50 06;52 EDB-EUS, freeing the inbound from Polmadie to be used on the 9M53 10:00 GLC-EUS.

That would keep a unit free in Polmadie to work 9M53 10:00 GLC-EUS.

 

[mangyiscute]

I'd argue that what should be done is try to incorporate a Crewe stop on all London to Scotland services - the amount of additional connectivity that is gained by calling at such a major interchange station would provide a lot of options for people travelling from the north to speed up their journeys.
I know that pathing this is not going to be easy, but I imagine it should be possible.

 

[Starmill]

I'd argue that what should be done is try to incorporate a Crewe stop on all London to Scotland services - the amount of additional connectivity that is gained by calling at such a major interchange station would provide a lot of options for people travelling from the north to speed up their journeys.
I know that pathing this is not going to be easy, but I imagine it should be possible.

Nice in theory but even if you could both time it and get platform availability, and you applied pick up and set down restrictions, ultimately you'd probably still get little benefit. There's just enough room to take on more people south of Preston on most services.

 

[hux385]

So is it 2 departures each direction each day that are missing currently? I can see that 1000 and 1400 from GLC don't currently exist. I'd love to see a more regular direct Glasgow to West Mids offering - it would offer anyone in Scotland more flexibility with connections down the West Coast which are currently lacking in my opinion.

 

[The Planner]

I know that pathing this is not going to be easy, but I imagine it should be possible.

A Crewe stop adds 5-6 minutes into the schedule. That is two paths on the WCML south of Crewe. If you took 1M07 for example from Glasgow, adding 5 minutes into that would cause you to lose more time behind the Chester Euston as you would follow it on headway, and that has to cross to the slows to serve Lichfield and Tamworth. Prior to that happening you clash with a Manchester which pops out at Colwich to follow the Chester. If neither of those clashes were there, you then catch the LNWR Crewe to Euston at Rugby and have to follow that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue that what should be done is try to incorporate a Crewe stop on all London to Scotland services - the amount of additional connectivity that is gained by calling at such a major interchange station would provide a lot of options for people travelling from the north to speed up their journeys.
I know that pathing this is not going to be easy, but I imagine it should be possible.

The main reason that wasn't previously done is I recall capacity, not speed. The stop was inserted during the COVID time when the via Birmingham wasn't running, but I can't remember what that did to pathing or if it was only possible due to other services being removed.

 

[JonathanH]

The stop was inserted during the COVID time when the via Birmingham wasn't running, but I can't remember what that did to pathing or if it was only possible due to other services being removed.

At a cost most hours of having to run in a path 20 minutes earlier from Euston, ie moved to what was the Chester path at xx10.

 

[jfollows]

At a cost most hours of having to run in a path 20 minutes earlier from Euston, ie moved to what was the Chester path at xx10.

And with a long dwell at Crewe to get back into its original path - it wasn't ideal, not least because if it ran to time it blocked a platform there for a long time, generally not a good thing at Crewe.
EDIT The timetable shown here was a triumph of optimism over reality in that the changes shown for September 2021 didn't happen, but the xx.10 Glasgow service ran as shown and continued to run.

 

[30907]

What are the problems we are trying to address here?

Southbound - is there a capacity issue that means a 1000 ex GLC is required, because the alternative of changing at Preston is insufficient? .
I can't see an easy way of providing a relief service other than (1) reinstating the Pendolino diagram or (2) providing a TPE Glasgow-Liverpool at 0945 (which could return at 1412), but I doubt TPE are interested

Northbound - the issue is the lack of connections to Glasgow off the Blackpools. However, there are good connections into TPE off the Edinburghs which partly mitigates this (or would do, if the operators would cooperate!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the problems we are trying to address here?

Southbound - is there a capacity issue that means a 1000 ex GLC is required, because the alternative of changing at Preston is insufficient?

On the northern section these services also provide connections to Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford - it isn't just Birmingham. This is quicker changing at Crewe, so would involve two changes if the direct Scotland-Birmingham is missing.

 

[Falcon1200]

What are the problems we are trying to address here?

4 hour gaps in direct services between two of the UK's biggest cities despite being on the same route! Southbound, connections between a Glasgow-Euston and Edinburgh or Blackpool-Birmingham train are good, northbound they are diabolical; I travelled from Birmingham to Glasgow today, alighted from the Edinburgh-bound train at Carlisle and eschewed the following TPE Glasgow train due to its business, therefore having a 50 minute wait for the next Avanti to Glasgow. A two-hourly service was justified, and provided, pre-Covid, and should be restored ASAP.

 

[30907]

4 hour gaps in direct services between two of the UK's biggest cities despite being on the same route! ....
A two-hourly service was justified, and provided, pre-Covid, and should be restored ASAP.

How are loadings north of Preston compared with pre-Covid? And what is the balance between Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Last month on a Friday I did Lancaster-Carlisle around 1300. Standard was well loaded, but first almost empty.
Can't help feeling that a combined Blackpool/Glasgow would be about right - but that would mean using Voyagers under the wires

 

[Starmill]

How are loadings north of Preston compared with pre-Covid? And what is the balance between Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Last month on a Friday I did Lancaster-Carlisle around 1300. Standard was well loaded, but first almost empty.
Can't help feeling that a combined Blackpool/Glasgow would be about right - but that would mean using Voyagers under the wires

To be fair Voyagers don't have very long left. Alas, there's no real chance of availability of 805s.

 

[Falcon1200]

Last month on a Friday I did Lancaster-Carlisle around 1300. Standard was well loaded, but first almost empty.

IMHO poor First Class loadings on Avanti services are more to do with that company's fare and accommodation policies rather than lack of demand!

 

[Bletchleyite]

IMHO poor First Class loadings on Avanti services are more to do with that company's fare and accommodation policies rather than lack of demand!

I have found standard premium to be quite popular, it seems to me to have increased loadings particularly with all sets now only having 3 first class coaches. Quite hard to get a table for 2 these days!

 

[jfollows]

I have found standard premium to be quite popular, it seems to me to have increased loadings particularly with all sets now only having 3 first class coaches. Quite hard to get a table for 2 these days!

I know you're right, but when I went to Edinburgh in January from Crewe (down on a Friday, 11-car set, up on the following Monday, 9-car set) standard premium was very quiet in both directions, even though the rest of the 11-car set was pretty busy in standard. I sense that people aren't interested in upgrading on the day, or don't know that they can in spite of the announcements.