Should "internal" Rail Industry logs be in the public domain?

[renegademaster]

Moderator note - split from:

EMR derailed train in Thetford area (06/02)

1L15 1551 Liverpool Lime St. to Norwich East Midlands Railway unit 158856 has hit a large object on the line between Thetford and Harling Road and derailed. Front bogie off the road. no known injuries to crew or passengers. Update: thankfully confirmed no injuries on board.

www.railforums.co.uk

As someone not employed in the rail industry , im curious why shouldnt the incidents logs like the one posted be open data? NR dont have competitors and are ultimately a government department

 

[RailwayRookie]

As someone not employed in the rail industry , im curious why shouldnt the incidents logs like the one posted be open data? NR dont have competitors and are ultimately a government department

So people don't draw their own conclusions or media outlets don't go around spinning things to further the 'Trains Bad' narrative.. imagine if there was a fatality and the general public got to read about it before the Next of kin were told.

 

[The Puddock]

CCIL log access is recorded now for exactly this reason. Stops others within the industry with professional interest reading to avoid any issues.

It always has been recorded and auditable, it’s just that they recently made the warnings about it more prominent. The long and short of it is that you are not directly involved in managaing an incident you should not be looking at the log for it. There are changes on the horizion to CCIL and how you access it which will really clamp down on this sort of thing. Howver, the post which initially sparked this discussion appears to be taken from a summary email or Tryell/Arrakis message sent out by one of the TOCs which has copied information from CCIL and it is much harder to control where these end up.

As someone not employed in the rail industry , im curious why shouldnt the incidents logs like the one posted be open data? NR dont have competitors and are ultimately a government department

For the same reason that police, ambulance and fire service logs are not published despite being ‘ultimately a government department’. Log entries may contain personal data (names, phone numbers etc…) or highly sensitive information about injuries, fatalities, the cause of an accident etc… They are not written for public consumption. You can request them under the Freedom of Information legislation but all information which is not appropriate for publication will be redacted.

 

[renegademaster]

Other countries(mainly USA) do have unencrypted police coms and even made it illegal for police to encrypt them.

People getting the raw information is better than the imagination of facebook groups and local journalists monopolizing the reporting.

You could have a -10 minutes feed for this kind of thing you could censor things that absolutely cant be reported.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

So people don't draw their own conclusions or media outlets don't go around spinning things to further the 'Trains Bad' narrative.. imagine if there was a fatality and the general public got to read about it before the Next of kin were told.

People already do that. I read all kinds of things in the croydon facebook groups in the aftermath of the Sandilands cras

 

[The Puddock]

Other countries(mainly USA) do have unencrypted police coms and even made it illegal for police to encrypt them.

People getting the raw information is better than the imagination of facebook groups and local journalists monopolizing the reporting

I couldn’t disgree more.

 

[renegademaster]

I couldn’t disgree more.

Why?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

I can understand the reason for redacting personal information but that can be done with only a couple of staff and a small time delay

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see that it'd cause much harm but equally it's probably considered serious misconduct to post them so I'd not do it any more than I'd post anything similar from my job.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It will be. If I was back managing in TOC land, it would be a dismissal offence and I would have no hesitation instantly suspending and then dismissing anyone who did.

There is no public right to know every last detail and a Control Log is a contemporaneous view of events, not the definitive one. It contains all kinds of sensitive information and a necessarily redacted version of it would not look much different than the public statements that are usually issued after an incident.

As long as the public are informed of the basic details of the incident, that there were no injuries, the passengers were taken off and the line is closed until further notice/tomorrow/whenever with buses running, what else is there to say?

The relevant safety authorities are the competent bodies who can delve into CCIL and any other information and they need to do it calmly and away from the public gaze.

Armchair/ social media sleuths and people who like to take hot takes can just go and do one. They are not getting every last detail, for very good reasons, and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

[renegademaster]

Theirs no legally enshrined right we know every movement that goes on on the rails but i generally think stuff like realtimetrains have been a positive development.

If somebody knew excatly what points had failed it could come into useful when planning your journey.

People speculating on social media isnt going be reduced by leaving them in the dark, people just fill in the gaps with their imaginations which often leads to a lot of trouble

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as the public are informed of the basic details of the incident, that there were no injuries, the passengers were taken off and the line is closed until further notice/tomorrow/whenever with buses running, what else is there to say?

A bit of explanation helps people to understand - easyJet is quite good at this, or at least was when using them regularly. So there'd be less desire for this sort of thing if a decent explanation was entered each time.

Network Rail has done this quite well of late by Tweeting photos of trees on the line and the likes. But it could be done better.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Other countries(mainly USA) do have unencrypted police coms and even made it illegal for police to encrypt them.

People getting the raw information is better than the imagination of facebook groups and local journalists monopolizing the reporting.

You could have a -10 minutes feed for this kind of thing you could censor things that absolutely cant be reported.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==


People already do that. I read all kinds of things in the croydon facebook groups in the aftermath of the Sandilands cras

The log gets edited before its sent out to industry management, let alone the public

 

[Gemz91]

Always think you’d be crackers to share a control log if you have access to them. People are desperate to show that they are the first to know something, more in the know then someone else or more railway then the next guy. Desperate for likes, whether it’s a thumbs up on social media or attention in a group chat. It happens in our group chat at work )not necessarily about last nights derailment just incidents in general). People sharing photos of incidents or control logs from somewhere. Don’t see why you’d run the risk of getting in trouble if you had access to them.

I always assume it’s someone innocently posting it in a closed What’s App group which is then leaked by another member of the What’s App group in the public domain.

I’m sure it’s only a very small proportion of the population who have an interest. Most people just care if theirs trains running from a to b not interested in all the ins and outs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just to mention that, whilst we wouldn't routinely delete things like log entries that are posted to the Forum, we are aware of some situations in which it would be inappropriate for a log, in whole or part, to remain in the public view. For instance an entry that named specific individuals ("MOM, Bob Smith, is on the way due in 15 minutes"), if it revealed something that should remain private ("Next conference call due 1130, ring xxx to join the call"), or if it revealed something that should only ever come out via official channels wellbeing reasons ("One fatality and several critically injured") are all things that would cause us to remove parts of or delete outright a posted log entry. It certainly isn't an exact science and when drawn to our attention we do consider each on its merits but when an entry is in effect little more than:

Northern 2D06 has hit an obstruction approaching Redcar East, the driver has made a REC call to Longbeck signaller and reports that everyone onboard is okay but the windscreen has been smashed. Tees Yard MOM will attend and Network Rail staff with equipment are being mobilised from Middlesbrough. Northern control are aware and actively liaising with staff on the ground to look at options to get passengers moving. The RAIB have been informed.​

Then we are unlikely to delete it. Whereas if a log entry looked more like:

Northern 2D06 has hit an obstruction approaching Redcar East, the driver has made a REC call to Longbeck signaller and reports that everyone onboard is okay but the windscreen has been smashed. Tees Yard MOM, Josh Lyman (mob: 07700 900452), will attend and Network Rail staff with equipment are being mobilised from Middlesbrough (contact Leo McGarry on 07700 900761) . Northern control are aware and actively liaising with staff on the ground to look at options to get passengers moving the next conference call will be at 0745 (Dial: 01632 960538 Pin: 2253). The RAIB have been informed.​

​

Last Update: 0732 by Sam Seaborn Route Controller York ROC​

Then we'd be inclined to at least edit out all the personal information and references to phone numbers if not delete it outright.

Appreciate that not everyone may be happy with the above approach nor agree with where we've drawn the line but that is the broad approach that we take to things like this. If anyone does have a specific concern then, as always, the best thing to do is to use the report button on the post in question and we'll take a look and act accordingly rather than get into a discussion on the thread.

 

[Viper]

I presume incident logs are written in a time of need when information about an incident is being relayed for the first time. They will be written with brevity in mind and without a need to consider making it public friendly.

Public information has been improved recently to give passengers a bit more context, as it can help them understand and accept a situation, but there is certainly no benefit to raw incident logs being available to the public. They're not even widely available within the industry, as there's just no need for it.

 

[mpthomson]

Other countries(mainly USA) do have unencrypted police coms and even made it illegal for police to encrypt them.

People getting the raw information is better than the imagination of facebook groups and local journalists monopolizing the reporting.

You could have a -10 minutes feed for this kind of thing you could censor things that absolutely cant be reported.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==


People already do that. I read all kinds of things in the croydon facebook groups in the aftermath of the Sandilands cras

Why? You don't need to know any of this stuff. Your prurient interest isn't a reason for it to be publicly available.

 

[renegademaster]

Why? You don't need to know any of this stuff. Your prurient interest isn't a reason for it to be publicly available.

I dont need to know when 6V93 Newhaven Marine Ag Tml Dbc to Acton T.C. passes windmill junction but open data feeds tell me. And i can do actually useful stuff knowing excatly what wire snapped at watford junction like deciding what train to take, rather than just looking up when i can take a photo of class 66 near me

 

[Bertie the bus]

Network Rail did essentially release the incident log to the media following the Salisbury derailment and it was total drivel. No facts and loads of incorrect guesswork.

 

[Falcon1200]

If I was back managing in TOC land, it would be a dismissal offence and I would have no hesitation instantly suspending and then dismissing anyone who did.

Similarly when I was managing in NR land, I would not have dreamed of copying and pasting anything from the Control log to any Forum or social media, nor even providing additional detail not already in the public domain through the approved railway sources, and I would not expect my colleagues to either; Although it was never actually an issue in my experience. Control Logs are an internal record of what happened when and are not in any way intended, or suitable, for public consumption.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Network Rail did essentially release the incident log to the media following the Salisbury derailment and it was total drivel. No facts and loads of incorrect guesswork.

Which, during a live incident, there's a lot of assumption. Facts come out during the investigation afterwards

 

[Horizon22]

Which, during a live incident, there's a lot of assumption. Facts come out during the investigation afterwards

Yeah and such a log incident for Salisbury would at just several hours in have probably over 100 entries too. As incidents unfold, more information becomes available and a fuller picture is formed.

My opinion is that those who have access to such logs know the risks and can see the prominent warnings when you log in. If people wish to paraphrase that's slightly better but still a risk to take, as much of the information is sensitive.

That being said, it is not just logs (although these naturally drive more speculation); people on these forums have access to contracts, financials, stock specifications and so on which are all internal and not available to the wider public so it is a fine line to tread between making these forums a valuable place and over-sharing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

Always think you’d be crackers to share a control log if you have access to them. People are desperate to show that they are the first to know something, more in the know then someone else or more railway then the next guy. Desperate for likes, whether it’s a thumbs up on social media or attention in a group chat. It happens in our group chat at work )not necessarily about last nights derailment just incidents in general). People sharing photos of incidents or control logs from somewhere. Don’t see why you’d run the risk of getting in trouble if you had access to them.

I always assume it’s someone innocently posting it in a closed What’s App group which is then leaked by another member of the What’s App group in the public domain.

I’m sure it’s only a very small proportion of the population who have an interest. Most people just care if theirs trains running from a to b not interested in all the ins and outs.

That's always the issue - a log gets sent to somewhere, that gets copied to somewhere else then gets to somewhere else that ends up on this forum. Tracing it back could be very difficult.

That being said, the say thing happens to MPs with WhatsApp conversations!

 

[Viper]

I dont need to know when 6V93 Newhaven Marine Ag Tml Dbc to Acton T.C. passes windmill junction but open data feeds tell me. And i can do actually useful stuff knowing excatly what wire snapped at watford junction like deciding what train to take, rather than just looking up when i can take a photo of class 66 near me

All the pertinent information will be shared by TOC staff when it is available to them. If a line is blocked, the relevant trains will be cancelled or delayed and that is how you are informed that you need to adjust your travel plans. The average British rail passenger doesn't know what a headcode is, never mind knowing how to search for it or understand an OpenTrainTimes map.

Being able to see an incident log would only satisfy intrigue. Knowing which OHL has failed, or why it failed, won't get anyone home faster.

A few weeks ago I was travelling from Milton Keynes back up North via the ECML. I knew there were issues on the ECML and that trains were significantly delayed out of KGX. At KGX, the station staff weren't able to advise when trains would leave and the information available on the slightly more informed sources cited signalling issues. At that point, I didn't need to know what the issue was, or where. No trains were leaving KGX and the TOCs evidently hadn't worked out their contingency movements so any access to an incident log would have gained me nothing.

That being said, it is not just logs (although these naturally drive more speculation); people on these forums have access to contracts, financials, stock specifications and so on which are all internal and not available to the wider public so it is a fine line to tread between making these forums a valuable place and over-sharing.

Absolutely. Common sense failure is unfortunately very common as people don't consider the "What if the Daily Mail..." aspect of sharing internal information. As you say, there is a wealth of information known by people about the infrastructure, budgets, contract awards etc and for those people, it's usually pretty obvious what shouldn't be shared unless it's already available to the public. As someone said previously, some people get a hard on for being able to prove that they "know things" and aren't capable of rational thought or retaining information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being able to see an incident log would only satisfy intrigue. Knowing which OHL has failed, or why it failed, won't get anyone home faster.

No, but humans are humans and feel less aggrieved if they know what's going on. Thus better information would reduce the risks of assault etc, as well as simply being respectful of the people who pay for the railway to exist.

That doesn't mean internal logs, but it does mean using the tools available e.g. the PIS, JourneyCheck, X etc to give a decent running commentary of what's going on.

easyJet do this quite well on their app and have for a fair while rather than just almost-deliberately winding people up with "the late arrival of the incoming aircraft", a fob-off if I ever heard one.

Does it need to contain stuff like "OHLE stanchion number X has fallen over trapping 5H17*"? No. But what it does need to contain is things like "The overhead lines are down in area X, this is blocking all lines. We have dispatched a team to investigate, but we expect no trains will be able to run through the blockage for at least 4 hours. This being the case we recommend...". Then an update "The team have arrived on site and estimate the works will take a minimum of 5 hours..." and so on.

Communicate frequently, clearly and honestly. Even communicate if there's nothing to update, because then people don't feel forgotten.

* Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Viper]

A level of context can certainly be useful and appears to be conveyed a lot better now than it used to. Being told of "a fault to the signalling system" is better than "delayed". Knowing that it's outside Hitchin doesn't change anything. Being told how long it will take to resolve definitely could, as you could leave the station and return later, but it takes a long time for anyone to know how long it will take to fix, and at that point it's better not to speculate rather than to share information that could be wrong.

You don't want to say "these are usually fixed in 2 hours", then find out something can't be fixed and it'll take 5. That would cause even more issues than saying "Sorry we don't know how long it will take, we advise you check for updates and return when appropriate". At least you're not being given false hope.

Think how long it will take for a MOM to get to site in the first place to actually see the issue, then to mobilise an appropriate OLE/PWay etc team to get to site to inspect and fix a problem. If they can fix it. There are too many unknowns to risk overinforming the public.

Tell them too much and they won't understand. Tell them too little and they won't understand. Speak in normal language, be compassionate and suggest all alternatives available is the best option available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A level of context can certainly be useful and appears to be conveyed a lot better now than it used to. Being told of "a fault to the signalling system" is better than "delayed". Knowing that it's outside Hitchin doesn't change anything.

It does - you're forgetting psychology. Knowing as much as sensibly possible, even if technically useless, improves understanding and reduces bad feeling. Though it actually can be useful as it gives a bit of an idea of what sort of service might be able to be resurrected in the meantime (or just coming out with that!)

Does it matter that the late inbound aircraft was delayed this morning because the pilot was late for work because his car broke down? No, but it aids understanding. So do e.g. pictures of damage, which Network Rail is now quite good at sharing.

I don't think control logs should be posted, but I do think high quality, frequently updated information should be the default.

 

[renegademaster]

Knowing which OHL has failed,

If i know if its the up or down line failed would be the difference between me waiting about , or heading to Marylebone instead

 

[Viper]

Surely that depends on when the TOCs have sorted out the location and times of the trains/crews?

 

[bluriniho]

Sorry, but I'd expect the chances of them being made public being between nil and zero.

They contain information which is vital to operating the railway but should not / cannot be made public. Such as:

1. Names and contact details for staff
2. Names and contact details of members of the public (e.g. people who report issues)
3. Details of security measures and procedures, police / emergency service responses etc. e.g. how bomb threats are responded to etc.
4. Details of the operational railway - access point locations, how/where stock is stabled, staff response times etc. - none of which you'd want to be public more than can be helped
5. A lot of the live information around fatalities and injuries etc. is very 'matter of fact' - what happened, how it needs to be 'cleaned up' etc
6. A lot of the information is 'wrong' and based on what is known at the time - e.g. 'driver suspects derailment caused by x' - that then becomes the Daily Mail front page tomorrow
7. A lot of the information is estimated - if it's 'official' rail industry information and people rely on '2 hours to fix', who is liable when it doesn't happen as planned?

And that's just off the top of my head. Yes, you could have someone 'sanitize' it - but given it would only be of use in real time and the amount of data that can be generated, you're talking about having teams of people working in shifts to do it to ensure that nothing untoward is released. It's not like making timetable data available to Open Train Times etc. where it's providing access into existing data feeds between system that provides purely 'factual' data.

Don't forget that it's not just 'big' incidents, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of entries per day, most of which are inane but would still need to be checked over.

If you had the money and resource to do all of that, you could achieve much more by putting the resources to improving communication with passengers for everybody, rather than the 0.1% that it would actually benefit.

 

[Signal Head]

Network Rail did essentially release the incident log to the media following the Salisbury derailment and it was total drivel. No facts and loads of incorrect guesswork.

I have a few printouts of 'humourous' log entities from way back - one which sticks in the mind concerned a power supply failure affecting the (then) fairly new Leamington Spa SSI panel, which some considered to operate 'by magic'.

Said entry concluded with (in stark dot matrix all caps) "Stand by Genie failed to come in".
We never did work out if it was a knowing joke or a spelling mistake.

 

[eldomtom2]

Details of the operational railway - access point locations, how/where stock is stabled, staff response times etc. - none of which you'd want to be public more than can be helped

I'm fairly certain where stock is stabled is fairly public knowledge...