Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[karlbbb]

It would seem there were, not sure if they are still aboard. This was posted on X/Twitter at 13:19:-

https://x.com/spyder_webb/status/1753407743648534749

There's a follow-up tweet to this that says it was "3 hours 20 minutes" and still stuck on the train, although I understand they've now been evacuated to Allerton Depot.

EDIT: There's also now a nice queue forming at Sandhills. Looks like 2S39 having issues - left Moorfields on time but arrived 6L to Sandhills and was at the platform for nearly 4 minutes, although departed as I'm typing this.

 

[Bikeman78]

There's a follow-up tweet to this that says it was "3 hours 20 minutes" and still stuck on the train, although I understand they've now been evacuated to Allerton Depot.

EDIT: There's also now a nice queue forming at Sandhills. Looks like 2S39 having issues - left Moorfields on time but arrived 6L to Sandhills and was at the platform for nearly 4 minutes, although departed as I'm typing this.

The Southport to Hunts Cross line has been welcomed to the chaos club!

 

[L401CJF]

There's a follow-up tweet to this that says it was "3 hours 20 minutes" and still stuck on the train, although I understand they've now been evacuated to Allerton Depot.

Apparently BTP called due to passengers onboard getting irrate.

 

[karlbbb]

Looks like the rescue has worked. 1Z99 showing on the other side of the junction now, 1R70 has passed through Hunts Cross and now arriving at Liverpool South Parkway, and 2U40 has gone past Central, though I assume this will terminate at Parkway, as will any consequent Hunts Cross services until 777028 and the rescue unit are moved away from Hunts Cross.

 

[YorkRanger]

Something appears to have failed at Chester now too.

 

[L401CJF]

Something appears to have failed at Chester now too.

Appears to be 2C39, 1545 departure from Chester stuck at Chester for 45mins, now heading Empty as 5C39, 2C40 behind now 25 odd late. All Chester units were south of Birkenhead when I last looked so nothing from Liverpool to Chester for a while.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently BTP called due to passengers onboard getting irrate.

Typical railway. Call the police on passengers who are justifiably angry.

Three hours on a toilet less train is unacceptable.

 

[karlbbb]

Another failure at Central, 2K42 now showing as 5K42 with a queue forming behind it. Should have departed 1650 but still at the platform.

 

[trainophile]

Typical railway. Call the police on passengers who are justifiably angry.

Three hours on a toilet less train is unacceptable.

That was my first thought. It's about time toiletless trains were made illegal.

 

[karlbbb]

That was my first thought. It's about time toiletless trains were made illegal.

Merseyrail is a frequent metro service, with most journeys under 30 minutes. Breakdowns aside, there’s no need for toilets.

The issue here was the lack of evacuation in good time.

 

[Bikeman78]

Typical railway. Call the police on passengers who are justifiably angry.

Three hours on a toilet less train is unacceptable.

The next 777 would have got to South Parkway approx 90 minutes after the failure. Seems odd it wasn't used to rescue.

 

[trainophile]

Merseyrail is a frequent metro service, with most journeys under 30 minutes. Breakdowns aside, there’s no need for toilets.

The issue here was the lack of evacuation in good time.

It's 40 minutes to Central from Chester, longer from other Wirral Line termini. Hunts Cross to Southport over an hour. It might be perceived as a Metro service but a lot of tourists are on it for the whole route.

There was a couple of Americans on my train from Chester today, discussing whether to get off at Lime Street or Central. They decided on Central. I was biting my tongue not to say "not if you want to use the toilets, Lime Street is where you need to get off". I minded my own business but did wonder how they fared on arrival.

 

[The_Train]

Apparently depot shunt batteries not got enough power in them to move it forward onto the juice rail

Surely that can't be right? The gaps are hardly mammoth - sounds like the batteries are pretty pointless and more a gimmick than anything useful!

Apparently BTP called due to passengers onboard getting irrate.

I'm not surprised they were irate. 3 hours stuck just outside a station - I get that evacuation onto tracks has to be a last resort but surely after a lot less time than 3 hours plus someone should have put more consideration into passenger needs and just getting them off the train so they can get on with their lives.

It's such a shame how performance levels have dropped so considerably on Merseyrail just lately

 

[L401CJF]

Surely that can't be right? The gaps are hardly mammoth - sounds like the batteries are pretty pointless and more a gimmick than anything useful!

I believe its more a case of they weren't sufficiently charged enough for it to work. I've been told a lot of them have been having various battery issues- I suppose it's not impossible that after being stored all over the place for years hasn't helped - we all know that that knackers batteries!

 

[The_Train]

I believe its more a case of they weren't sufficiently charged enough for it to work. I've been told a lot of them have been having various battery issues- I suppose it's not impossible that after being stored all over the place for years hasn't helped - we all know that that knackers batteries!

Oh, that makes more sense. However, that seems to be just a further addition to the issues these units have. Not going great with the 777 introduction is it?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It's such a shame how performance levels have dropped so considerably on Merseyrail just lately

Entirely predictable though. If you introduce a new train that has a multitude of problems and plough on with the rollout despite those problems persisting then there can only be one outcome.

 

[The_Train]

Entirely predictable though. If you introduce a new train that has a multitude of problems and plough on with the rollout despite those problems persisting then there can only be one outcome.

Indeed, coupled with their desire to remove the older stock which could have been used to at least maintain a reasonable semblance of service whilst they slowly introduce the 777s. Instead they are continually forced into entering more and more new units into service and therefore increasing the likelihood of what has occurred today. I wonder if the Mayor will be crowing about the new units this evening?

 

[childwallblues]

Indeed, coupled with their desire to remove the older stock which could have been used to at least maintain a reasonable semblance of service whilst they slowly introduce the 777s. Instead they are continually forced into entering more and more new units into service and therefore increasing the likelihood of what has occurred today. I wonder if the Mayor will be crowing about the new units this evening?

As I have previously said on this forum the Mayor does not do bad news,

 

[Vinnym]

Just travelled on 1659 Orrell Park to Ormskirk, first time I have heard the message for passengers to stand clear of the doors as we were leaving the station and heading towards Aintree. Is this something new and what if the train is heavy loaded?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Surely that can't be right? The gaps are hardly mammoth - sounds like the batteries are pretty pointless and more a gimmick than anything useful!

I'm not surprised they were irate. 3 hours stuck just outside a station - I get that evacuation onto tracks has to be a last resort but surely after a lot less time than 3 hours plus someone should have put more consideration into passenger needs and just getting them off the train so they can get on with their lives.

It's such a shame how performance levels have dropped so considerably on Merseyrail just lately

To wait three hours is unsurprisingly provocative.

In my opinion the risk there would be Passengers rescuing themselves before that !. Its what happens in Southern land. Then is juice off and yet more stranded trains !.

 

[Northerngirl]

With how much they bragged about how they have a fancy ramp for evacuations, I'd be more than irate if I was stuck for 3 hours, what a utter joke

 

[Killingworth]

With how much they bragged about how they have a fancy ramp for evacuations, I'd be more than irate if I was stuck for 3 hours, what a utter joke

Do the emergency safety posters on the trains advise which corner should be used as a toilet when trapped for over 2 hours?

 

[The_Train]

Do the emergency safety posters on the trains advise which corner should be used as a toilet when trapped for over 2 hours?

I believe it is ok to do it anywhere except near to the doors because if you stand next to a door for too long, then the doors will also fail

 

[Fokx]

With how much they bragged about how they have a fancy ramp for evacuations, I'd be more than irate if I was stuck for 3 hours, what a utter joke

The ‘fancy ramp for evacuations’ is for use when a rescue train is attached to the front or rear.

Pretty useless to deploy it when it took nearly three hours for a rescue 777 to arrive

 

[childwallblues]

So ironic that the unit failed right next to Allerton Depot. There used to be a connection between the up and down Southport and what is now the Allerton Depot neck but this was removed some years ago.

 

[Bikeman78]

I presume the delivery schedule was baked-in to the contract, as Stadler don't have extensive storage facilites near their factories so they need to clear what storage they do have for other customer's units that are coming off the line.

It was probably based on the assumption that there would be minimal issues post-delivery and introduction, which would have allowed the withdrawal of the 507 & 508 fleets to be accelerated. Instead, they have needed to be kept to the end of their leases, which has meant there is not enough room for the units being delivered at the depots so they were being kept at Walton and are now going to Long Marston. All of this was presumably exacerbated by the delayed introduction into service due to COVID and not sorting out the agreements with the unions about how they would be operated ahead of time (that really should have been done during the specification stage, not after units had started to be delivered).

It's interesting to see that Nexus have already postponed the introduction of the 555s until at least next year, after unspecified issues were found during testing on the Metro network. I think they own their existing Metrocar fleet though, so they are not in the same position as Merseyrail who, stuck between a rock and a hard place, seem to have made the choice to soldier on with the introduction of unreliable units rather than having to pay for extending the lease on the existing stock and potentially put them through deep maintanance (it's arguable that the contract with Stadler could have been written so that they bore those costs if the introduction of the new fleet did not go as planned).

As I said earlier in the thread, I think a lot of these issues are due to Merseytravel having no previous experience in the aspects of procuring, testing and introducing a new fleet. In my line of work, post-delivery faults of the scale seen with the 777s would cause the programme to be halted and there would be contracted daily penalty payments to the customer until solutions were available (which is a great incentive to get as much testing, based on real-world use cases and conditions, done as possible pre-delivery).

I'm not privvy to the details of the contract but if they don't work it would be absurd if Merseyrail were not able to halt deliveries. What Stadler does with the undelivered sets is not Merseyrail's problem. I'd like to think that they don't pay lease charges until a set has been accepted to traffic. Assuming no major overhauls due, the owner of the 507s is likely to be happy to offer a reasonable week by week extension rate. It's virtually money for nothing.

 

[Skie]

The ‘fancy ramp for evacuations’ is for use when a rescue train is attached to the front or rear.

Pretty useless to deploy it when it took nearly three hours for a rescue 777 to arrive

It's fancy because it can be used for train to train and train to track evacuations.

They really should have gotten the passengers off quicker though, it's not in the middle of nowhere and the line was blocked by that train so it wouldnt have been too much effort to get an isolation and a few people in high vis to help the passengers along to the nearest platform. The railway is so risk adverse now they won't let anyone make a decision when it comes to strandings.

 

[Prime586]

I'm not privvy to the details of the contract but if they don't work it would be absurd if Merseyrail were not able to halt deliveries. What Stadler does with the undelivered sets is not Merseyrail's problem. I'd like to think that they don't pay lease charges until a set has been accepted to traffic. Assuming no major overhauls due, the owner of the 507s is likely to be happy to offer a reasonable week by week extension rate. It's virtually money for nothing.

And yet despite the lack of reliability of the units that have entered service, the deliveries are still taking place, now to Long Marston. From that you can only assume the delivery schedule is part of the contract, or that it's cheaper for whoever's paying the storage fees for them to be stored on this side of the Channel. The rate of 777s entering service is also far lower than the rate they are being delivered.

The 777s are not leased - Merseytravel own them. Depending on how the contract was written ,the ownership of each unit will transfer from Stadler to Merseytravel either on completion, delivery, or acceptance into service. you would hope it's the latter.

I'm sure Angel Trains would be happy to extend the lease on the remaining servicable 507s but unless they can put the screws on Stadler to cough up via a penalty clause, Merseytravel would have to pay for that too.

We are still waiting for the answers from the 'full and frank exchange of views' with Stadler back in November, Mr. Rotheram....

Speaking of answers to questions, it's notable that Merseytravel's mastermind behind the project seems to have vanished from the public eye since they entered service. He was part of the initial PR blitz (even on here) but since they entered service he seems to have disappeared.

 

[L401CJF]

777013 now developed a fault on Chester line. 2100 off Chester all pax kicked off at Ham Sq, train empty to James St p2 for reset, fault not mended, now gone empty to Rock Ferry for tech attention and the 2230 from Chester now cancelled as a result.

Disaster of a day!

 

[urbophile]

Looks like the rescue has worked. 1Z99 showing on the other side of the junction now, 1R70 has passed through Hunts Cross and now arriving at Liverpool South Parkway, and 2U40 has gone past Central, though I assume this will terminate at Parkway, as will any consequent Hunts Cross services until 777028 and the rescue unit are moved away from Hunts Cross.

I can't understand why they couldn't have run trains as far as Parkway if the line was only blocked at Hunts Cross.