Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bikeman78]

Someone provided an explanation a while ago for the lateness of that announcement. When the train is sat in a station, the doors close on a timer to save energy. This means that when the driver presses the door close button - which is what triggers the announcement - most of the doors are actually already closed.

Can't vouch for the accuracy of this but it sounds plausible.

All modern train doors behave as described above. The other big difference between the 507 and the 777 is that the passengers have to get used to opening the doors. There are still lots of people that stand there and wonder why they aren't opening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2024 ==

After a couple of "ok"* days, they've definitely taken a step backwards today.. I think every line has had issues now today. I've been out on the network for the majority of the day and have a couple of cancellations and delays caused by 777s failing now. You try and praise the fleet and they respond like this .

*Ok by 777 standards.

I'm going to sound like a broken record but why is Merseyrail accepting more units when they are so unreliable? The miles per failure is going down not up, according to Modern Railways. What is going on behind the scenes to solve the problems? They have been running for a year now. The Chester line was completely broken yesterday evening. It must be a nightmare in Merseyrail control, after a relatively easy life for 40 years.

 

[8A Rail]

Updated List since movements to Long Marston today:
Kirkdale C.S. = 001 to 028 inclusive, 030, 031, 032, 034, 036, 049, 140, 142, 144, 146, 148, 150 and 152.
WOJn MSC Sidings = None.
Long Marston = 029, 043 and 045.

 

[urbophile]

Not sure if this is a new thing or if I've just never seen it before. This morning at Liverpool Central a 777 just arrived from Ormskirk was showing "I'm terminating" on the side displays before shunting into the reversing siding.

Aaargh! Trains with personality!

 

[TheSel]

I've just passed what I take to be 5T09 at Sandhills Reversing siding, and I'm certain it was 2x777 (i.e. 8 cars).

Can anyone confirm, please?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not sure if this is a new thing or if I've just never seen it before. This morning at Liverpool Central a 777 just arrived from Ormskirk was showing "I'm terminating" on the side displays before shunting into the reversing siding.

So disappointed in myself for this, as it’s so unprofessional… but I kinda love that.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not sure if this is a new thing or if I've just never seen it before. This morning at Liverpool Central a 777 just arrived from Ormskirk was showing "I'm terminating" on the side displays before shunting into the reversing siding.

The ones I travel on mostly just keep repeating ‘Owned by you’. I keep expecting it to scroll to ‘So you’d best fix them then’.

 

[Skie]

I've just passed what I take to be 5T09 at Sandhills Reversing siding, and I'm certain it was 2x777 (i.e. 8 cars).

Can anyone confirm, please?

I saw this as it was approaching Sandhills. It was 8 cars and had the “I’m testing, please don’t board” banners across the doors.

 

[Northerngirl]

Hopefully this is a sign of things improving, must be quite an upgrade in the software

 

[The_Train]

Not sure if this is a new thing or if I've just never seen it before. This morning at Liverpool Central a 777 just arrived from Ormskirk was showing "I'm terminating" on the side displays before shunting into the reversing siding.

With the current issues around this fleet, I'm not sure that is safe terminology to be using

 

[karlbbb]

I saw this as it was approaching Sandhills. It was 8 cars and had the “I’m testing, please don’t board” banners across the doors.

Well this is a pleasant surprise. With the new display board messages it certainly seems like there's been a big software update somewhere!

 

[Sam 76]

Well this is a pleasant surprise. With the new display board messages it certainly seems like there's been a big software update somewhere!

Worth noting as well this seemed to come on the /1s first and reliability has improved no end the last couple of weeks compared to before. So one would hope once across the /0s it would have a similar effect

 

[507021]

1) Are they? I recently did Lime St to Chester and thought they were surprisingly comfortable. Each to their own though I suppose.

2) Yes, I noticed that as well. It was also about the only announcement that was consistently loud enough to hear clearly.

Having travelled on 777s to and from Chester more times than I care to remember, I still think the seats are too hard. The posture isn't too bad in fairness, but I find it difficult to enjoy a journey if I can't get comfortable in my seat.

It is worth mentioning, because a lot of the time 507s get cancelled, people don't say because they like them, which I think is poor and biased, only to mention 777 cancelations.

I'm afraid your claims of people who like 50x units being biased against the 777s is inaccurate, because I've seen numerous reports of 50x failures on this forum, including from posters who I would describe as particularly ardent enthusiasts of the type. I haven't reported any myself because I haven't experienced any, and for the sake of balance, I can also say the same for the 777s. However, considering the huge gulf between the average MTIN figures for the two types (50x: 5,843, 777: 504), I can't say I'm surprised to see less of the former reported here. Nothing to do with bias, it's because the 50x are currently less likely to fail in the first place. I really don't see how it could be reasonably expected for people to be more impartial towards the 777s while their level of reliability remains dreadfully poor.

I'm going to sound like a broken record but why is Merseyrail accepting more units when they are so unreliable? The miles per failure is going down not up, according to Modern Railways. What is going on behind the scenes to solve the problems? They have been running for a year now. The Chester line was completely broken yesterday evening. It must be a nightmare in Merseyrail control, after a relatively easy life for 40 years.

When it became clear the 777s weren't at the required level of reliability, the rollout should have been immediately paused until the problems were resolved and consistent reliability achieved. I'm not sure I understand why some seem content for the rollout to continue with things as they are, but it is what it is.

 

[Prime586]

I'm going to sound like a broken record but why is Merseyrail accepting more units when they are so unreliable? The miles per failure is going down not up, according to Modern Railways. What is going on behind the scenes to solve the problems? They have been running for a year now. The Chester line was completely broken yesterday evening. It must be a nightmare in Merseyrail control, after a relatively easy life for 40 years.

I presume the delivery schedule was baked-in to the contract, as Stadler don't have extensive storage facilites near their factories so they need to clear what storage they do have for other customer's units that are coming off the line.

It was probably based on the assumption that there would be minimal issues post-delivery and introduction, which would have allowed the withdrawal of the 507 & 508 fleets to be accelerated. Instead, they have needed to be kept to the end of their leases, which has meant there is not enough room for the units being delivered at the depots so they were being kept at Walton and are now going to Long Marston. All of this was presumably exacerbated by the delayed introduction into service due to COVID and not sorting out the agreements with the unions about how they would be operated ahead of time (that really should have been done during the specification stage, not after units had started to be delivered).

It's interesting to see that Nexus have already postponed the introduction of the 555s until at least next year, after unspecified issues were found during testing on the Metro network. I think they own their existing Metrocar fleet though, so they are not in the same position as Merseyrail who, stuck between a rock and a hard place, seem to have made the choice to soldier on with the introduction of unreliable units rather than having to pay for extending the lease on the existing stock and potentially put them through deep maintanance (it's arguable that the contract with Stadler could have been written so that they bore those costs if the introduction of the new fleet did not go as planned).

As I said earlier in the thread, I think a lot of these issues are due to Merseytravel having no previous experience in the aspects of procuring, testing and introducing a new fleet. In my line of work, post-delivery faults of the scale seen with the 777s would cause the programme to be halted and there would be contracted daily penalty payments to the customer until solutions were available (which is a great incentive to get as much testing, based on real-world use cases and conditions, done as possible pre-delivery).

 

[trainophile]

Anyone know what broke down this morning, cancelling three services on the Southport line?

 

[YorkRanger]

A 777 is having issues between Hunts Cross and Liverpool South Parkway. It has managed to break down in just the right place.. on the crossover so all lines are blocked. Believe it has a DSD (Driver Safety Device) fault and is unable to take power.

 

[trainophile]

I might have guessed .

 

[karlbbb]

A 777 is having issues between Hunts Cross and Liverpool South Parkway. It has managed to break down in just the right place.. on the crossover so all lines are blocked. Believe it has a DSD (Driver Safety Device) fault and is unable to take power.

Looks like there's a Northern train caught up in the mess too (2F95). Left Hunt's Cross at 11:03, still at Hunt's Cross West Junction now.

 

[L401CJF]

777028 is the affected unit, originally a DSD issue, the pickup shoes have raised, unable to lower, tech have reset it but can't lower shoes. I am told it has stopped on a 3rd rail gap so even if shoes can be lowered there's no juice rail. Apparently depot shunt batteries not got enough power in them to move it forward onto the juice rail, and its in life save mode aka heat and light only.

I'm told its not foul of the junction but is still occupying the track circuit so signaller is unable to set points.

It will need rescuing by another 777.

Disruption on Northern as a result, believe they've got rail replacement buses running between Hunts Cross and South Parkway, Merseyrail have them on between Moorfields and South Parkway too.

 

[karlbbb]

777028 is the affected unit, originally a DSD issue, the pickup shoes have raised, unable to lower, tech have reset it but can't lower shoes. I am told it has stopped on a 3rd rail gap so even if shoes can be lowered there's no juice rail. Apparently depot shunt batteries not got enough power in them to move it forward onto the juice rail, and its in life save mode aka heat and light only.

I'm told its not foul of the junction but is still occupying the track circuit so signaller is unable to set points.

It will need rescuing by another 777.

Disruption on Northern as a result, believe they've got rail replacement buses running between Hunts Cross and South Parkway, Merseyrail have them on between Moorfields and South Parkway too.

Thank you for this detailed update; that's really interesting.

Looks like there's a couple of other Merseyrail units stuck around South Parkway and Cressington - are either of these a 777 do we know? I guess they'd become the rescuer if so.

 

[Peter Sarf]

All modern train doors behave as described above. The other big difference between the 507 and the 777 is that the passengers have to get used to opening the doors. There are still lots of people that stand there and wonder why they aren't opening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2024 ==


I'm going to sound like a broken record but why is Merseyrail accepting more units when they are so unreliable? The miles per failure is going down not up, according to Modern Railways. What is going on behind the scenes to solve the problems? They have been running for a year now. The Chester line was completely broken yesterday evening. It must be a nightmare in Merseyrail control, after a relatively easy life for 40 years.

The optimist in is hoping that the first delivered units have improved their reliability and that most of the failures are on more recently introduced units. This ignores software faults and applies to hardware/mechanical faults. That would mean It is reasonable to plod on with the whole fleet introduction given the old fleet are getting long in the tooth. I wonder if decision makers are seeing light at the end of the tunnel or are still in naive optimism mode ?.

 

[karlbbb]

I've just watched the cab ride video on YouTube from Hunts Cross to Southport, and had a look at the junctions 2S20 could be stuck over/near. I'm struggling to see how the train could be "gapped"; nearly all bogies on the 777s have pickup shows, and from what I remember, they're on both sides too. The gaps over/near the junctions just don't look big enough that at least one shoe wouldn't be in contact.

 

[Along the bay]

777028 is the affected unit, originally a DSD issue, the pickup shoes have raised, unable to lower, tech have reset it but can't lower shoes. I am told it has stopped on a 3rd rail gap so even if shoes can be lowered there's no juice rail. Apparently depot shunt batteries not got enough power in them to move it forward onto the juice rail, and its in life save mode aka heat and light only.

I'm told its not foul of the junction but is still occupying the track circuit so signaller is unable to set points.

It will need rescuing by another 777.

Disruption on Northern as a result, believe they've got rail replacement buses running between Hunts Cross and South Parkway, Merseyrail have them on between Moorfields and South Parkway too.

Disruption on Northern, TPE and EMR. The 12:39 Oxford Road - Lime Street terminated at Oxford Road and returned to Nottingham. 13:11 TPE, 13:39 EMR, 13:46 Northern ran express to Liverpool via CLC. Warrington Central passengers directed to 13:48 TFW and then told tickets marked Northern weren't valid.

 

[L401CJF]

I've just watched the cab ride video on YouTube from Hunts Cross to Southport, and had a look at the junctions 2S20 could be stuck over/near. I'm struggling to see how the train could be "gapped"; nearly all bogies on the 777s have pickup shows, and from what I remember, they're on both sides too. The gaps over/near the junctions just don't look big enough that at least one shoe wouldn't be in contact.

Just going off what I was told, not familiar with the area myself!

 

[karlbbb]

Just going off what I was told, not familiar with the area myself!

No intention to imply you were lying

 

[L401CJF]

Still there as of 14.25, I believe they are intending to use the 777 at Aigburth (showing as 5S27 on Traksy) as the rescue unit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Still there as of 14.25, I believe they are intending to use the 777 at Aigburth (showing as 5S27 on Traksy) as the rescue unit.

Let's hope the phenomenon of a fault transmitting from one unit to another doesn't happen...

 

[trainophile]

Are there passengers stuck on the broken down train?

 

[Djgr]

Disruption on Northern, TPE and EMR. The 12:39 Oxford Road - Lime Street terminated at Oxford Road and returned to Nottingham. 13:11 TPE, 13:39 EMR, 13:46 Northern ran express to Liverpool via CLC. Warrington Central passengers directed to 13:48 TFW and then told tickets marked Northern weren't valid.

So basically nothing to do with the 777s

 

[karlbbb]

So basically nothing to do with the 777s

Well, when the trains in question can't get past Hunts Cross towards Liverpool because of a broken-down 777, then it's everything to do with the 777s?

EDIT: Looks like the rescue is on. 1Z99 now on the tracks near South Parkway.

 

[M28361M]

Are there passengers stuck on the broken down train?

It would seem there were, not sure if they are still aboard. This was posted on X/Twitter at 13:19:-

@merseyrail Stuck on a train for 2.5 hours so far. It would be nice if somebody could tell us something or update us. We have heard nothing apart from "give us a couple of minutes" over & over. It seems you are more concerned about fixing the train than getting the passengers off

https://x.com/spyder_webb/status/1753407743648534749